[bjones]

Hi,
i am working on it ,.. but i do not start from zero.
but to do it properly i need to do my homework
guess in 6-8 Weeks i can state it properly
and i will do that here as well.

But we will see if dfeng is faster than i am -

So i make the best out of that so far bad experience i got from sky fire.
only issue is that i have to do it in steps.
thomas

if you can build it and DELIVER it you'll be miles ahead of defeng in every way shape or form. nothing he has done is revolutionary in any way you look at it.

[Tkamsker]

hi
i have the 0 series already working in my basement ,.. Lathe and mill
now it is to be productized ,..
and avoid (if possible all) pitfall of others

so the size is between Tormach 1100 and BF46 (or novakon) but stronger motor ,..
And i avoid junk where i can so i have access to the factory myself ,...
so no shipping from wherever
only some electronic parts will be from japan or taiwan
but now i have to go back to work

[skillalot]

hi
i have the 0 series already working in my basement ,.. Lathe and mill
now it is to be productized ,..

Pics or it didnt happen

[chevydyl]

Pics or it didnt happen

agreed.....

[jasu]

I'm curious about cnc machine because I studied language in college, now I'm doing the work for cnc machine sale.

[handlewanker]

Hi Kamsker......size between Tormach 1100 and Novacon?.........does this come with ball screws and linear ways or the oldie dovetail slides with Acme threads and nuts?

Also does it have an R8 spindle with TTS tooling compatibility, 'cos if it don't, tool changing is going to be a new experience if you are thinking instead of an INT 30 spindle.

At the same time does it have a dedicated Z axis or just a quill which makes it a manual retrofit and not worth the effort.

Too many questions and just 2 days after you announce the new venture.....but you must have some idea of a price, even a ball park figure, if it is going to be between a Tormach or Novacon.

What actually tempted you to try and compete with an already established machine supplier(s)?

I hope you are not contemplating emulating the Charter Oak set-up, where you import a manual mill and tear it apart to add bits and pieces to make it CNC.

I'm highly sceptical of anyone in the Western World who can match the current Chinese offerings and still make money.

Defeng has designed and built from the ground up a machine or two and has wowed all those that read about them.....if you want to match that act, then you'll have to get up early in the morning to catch his bus.

Let's have a price, the design and specifications can come later and be judged by those who would buy it.
Ian.

[bjones]

hi
i have the 0 series already working in my basement ,.. Lathe and mill
now it is to be productized ,..
and avoid (if possible all) pitfall of others

so the size is between Tormach 1100 and BF46 (or novakon) but stronger motor ,..
And i avoid junk where i can so i have access to the factory myself ,...
so no shipping from wherever
only some electronic parts will be from japan or taiwan
but now i have to go back to work

When you are ready to provide more details please start your own thread, you don't want anyone to think you are associated with defeng in any way shape or form by providing them in this thread. it's a disaster here so start fresh. besides, the life expectancy of this thread is short, without any response from defeng the continuation of this thread is pointless.

[LeeWay]

You cannot ask someone to come up with a price before anything else is done. That is like asking a startup manufacturer to custom make an entire machine and make many many changes to suit your needs.
Oh, I see that was the case. Okay. Maybe you can ask.

[ihavenofish]

I could build you a machine like defengs. no problem. made in Canada too. easy as pie.

just don't ask the price til after i've billed your credit card

this is why people are hanging onto hope here. its not because they are stupid, its because this was/is the best they could get for their money. for many people, getting their money back puts them in a worse position than waiting it out.

theres a machine on aliexpress right now, 3k (4k after shipping realistically). svm1 sized. that's just the frame, no electrical and no spindle. theres a million options for a machine this size.

when defeng gets his crap together, im sure he will have lost many customers from this mess, but he will STILL have the best machine for the price.

[LeeWay]

Defeng's main predicament can be smoothed over with delivery of all orders. That much is true.
While it will hurt his reliability for awhile, one thing will allow that to be forgiven? Follow through with all new orders in a timely manner and provide good support for those machines in the field. That also means to come back here to his start up thread and answer some burning questions. I know it would not be the most pleasant way for his to spend a little time, but it is the thing a business man would deem a necessity for the future of his venture.
If that scenario was carried out, I might look to buy from him as well.

[chevydyl]

I agree...there is no way unless your from China that you can build a machine and sell it for a comparable price as defeng. Don't know for sure but I'm guessing the Tormach is made in Asia somewhere and that's how they can offer it at a decent price yet still make a great profit. Based on the price of defeng machine his profit margin isn't anywhere near that of tormach. Just guessing though. Defeng machines are cool and I would really like to see updates.

[newman55598]

Give the guy a break your comparing his venture to someone that hasn't delivered a single machine yet At least as far as I know from this thread. Your assuming that defeng will some day deliver the promised machines. ( I hope he does ). Realistically at this point anyone could build a machine to match defeng all he has done to this point is take your money and show some unfinished pictures. I would agree if he ever follows thru with the orders it would be a tough market to compete in. However at this point that looks like a BIG if on the completing orders.

[high-side]

Defeng's main predicament can be smoothed over with delivery of all orders. That much is true.
While it will hurt his reliability for awhile, one thing will allow that to be forgiven? Follow through with all new orders in a timely manner and provide good support for those machines in the field. That also means to come back here to his start up thread and answer some burning questions. I know it would not be the most pleasant way for his to spend a little time, but it is the thing a business man would deem a necessity for the future of his venture.
If that scenario was carried out, I might look to buy from him as well.

+1

[skillalot]

I really believe Defeng is working on the open orders, and will deliver them soon.
Did he made a mistake not showing up here and tell his customers about his problems, and what they could expect? Yes that is a big mistake, just a small message would have been enough to keep most people satisfied. But I believe that his problems are solved and he is working on the orders to get them complete.
I believe in that so much that I actually just send him an order for 3 ballscrews, some angular contact bearings and some other small stuff.

[bjones]

I really believe Defeng is working on the open orders, and will deliver them soon.
Did he made a mistake not showing up here and tell his customers about his problems, and what they could expect? Yes that is a big mistake, just a small message would have been enough to keep most people satisfied. But I believe that his problems are solved and he is working on the orders to get them complete.
I believe in that so much that I actually just send him an order for 3 ballscrews, some angular contact bearings and some other small stuff.

i don't share your faith in defeng because he has been awol for 6 months now and is holding peoples money hostage. i attempted to put another small order in on his website over a week ago only to see if he would respond. i had no intention of following through with the order if he had but was just trying to see if he is still taking orders. fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. either he isn't or he recognized that it was from one of the many people he is ignoring and not delivering what they paid for and still is hiding. he did not respond so please let us know if your order goes through since he did not owe you money or product. remember, pics or it didn't happen.

[ihavenofish]

he was awol for over 3 months. no reason to exaggerate it now

people had last talked to him in june.

[bjones]

he was awol for over 3 months. no reason to exaggerate it now

people had last talked to him in june.

his last activity here was in april so no exaggeration at all, mind your business. one or 2 claimed contacts 4 months ago does not constitute keeping customers apprised of his intentions especially if they saw him on a beach somewhere.

[handlewanker]

Hi, one thing we have to acknowledge as being true.....all the other CNC machines that are comparable in size and price are either manual mill retrofits and so don't warrant a glance on a wet and windy day.

Defeng's design is pure CNC from the ground up, and not an afterthought using already available components that were from a previous generation now superseded by current CNC technology.

That is why I will wait until the machine I ordered with all the options is finished and I get a notification that it is ready to ship.

I can assure you, once the production line starts to roll, the delivery dates will be dependent on the availability of castings suitably aged to meet with Defeng's strict quality control as he indicated previously, rejecting components that in his estimation were not up to scratch.

So with the knowledge that these machines are really top notch and are best bang for the buck, I would not hesitate to suggest that anyone with a desire for the best stuff make tracks for the queue that will be forming and will only get longer.

Defeng being re-invented means his production facility will be limited at first strictly to those that placed their orders first.....early bird gets the most worms etc.....and it will take a while to build up inventory to come on stream like Henry Ford.

At the same time, the first load of machines will no doubt have some teething problems, probably mostly from electronics that need to become tried and tested in the field, but mechanically I think the items that go into the builds are as I would like them to be done, and I cannot see any mechanical aspect from the posted designs that I would want to change now that all the modifications have been sorted out.

IF.........the smallest word with the greatest meaning.....the machines turned out to NOT forthcoming and it was a washout never to heard of again, at least the design is formalised as to the best way to move XYand Z axes in a compact package without having to do lots of R&D and involve years of dithering about attempting to get the show on the road at a realistic cost.

Anyone can design a machine that will work on CNC principles now that linear slides and ball screws are the established way to move it, just make it from the designs Defeng has previously posted, but getting it translated into metal without having the design would be the hardest part......we have the design.......we don't have the ability to produce it to the same dollar value, unless we find someone in China that will make the parts to our specifications and export them.

Anyone in China currently building mills for the foreign market and using manual mill designs will need to completely revise their production methods and part supply chain, and that is a big cost up front to re-invent the wheel, especially if the profit margin is just adequate with the current build program.

Defeng is entering the market at the top of the CNC ladder, and to go forward successfully means he is going to be launching form the backs of giants from previous generations, and that takes quite a bit of financial input........I hope our money is sufficient to enable him to prosper as we are all inadvertent shareholders and like all venture capitalists have the most to lose.

For my part, investing $6,000 to get a product like the SVM-0 up and running and into production and delivered with all the options that I requested, will be a major miracle.
Ian.

[skillalot]

@Bjones, I didn't order using the website.

@Handlewanker, the castings of Defeng are not aged, they are heat threated.
That's where the dark red color comes from.
Attachment 252866

[handlewanker]

Hi, heat treated?......yes, annealed by another name........this would achieve the same result by re-heating them to red heat and allowing them to cool very slowly.

Any casting that is supplied as soon as it's cool enough to handle and gets machined will react when the hard outer skin is cut through.

It may not appear immediately while machining, but when the machined casting is removed from the machine it will exhibit some warping from the locked in stresses once the outer layer is cut away.

We now have to realise the extent you must go to when you wish to supply products that will have some credibility once they leave the work place and heating large castings needs a large heat source and facilities to allow them to cool slowly......and that is not just for one at a time.

The more you look at the set up that has so far been used for casting generation the more you realise that just machining a set of castings takes more than just bolting to a machine and hacking bits off of it.

I can understand the trend where CNC machines are being designed to use hollow steel tubing in various configurations, even though they have to be welded together and subsequently machined without huge amounts of material being taken off.

This is mainly due to the fact that machining does not cut into the weld areas, and so the stresses that may occur will not be released.

David D'Caussin's UMC 10 did not get heat treated after all the welding, even for the critical areas of the linear rail mountings after they were machine.

This is a very interesting concept as it makes a lot of pre-machining necessities unnecessary.....that is, you don't need to create patterns to produce castings that need to be heat treated etc...........just steel tubing and welded sections added where necessary.

I have to wonder how economical a machine like an SVM-0 or 1 could be built using this method....and quickly too......after minimal machining everything else is just an off the shelf added item like the linear rails and ball screws that actually do the work.

From a design concept you could have a prototype machine constructed ready for machining in a few days.....the end result would be the same.

Once the prototype is constructed.....it can be hacked about without too much bother as it's steel and that makes it user friendly to a welder when the design has to be rationalised.

Cast iron is definitely not user friendly when you want to add pieces to the original casting, and this would necessitate a complete rework of the patterns and a scrapping of the existing castings.

I would love to see a steel tubing "look alike" SVM-0 mill just to confirm my inner feelings as regards to welded machine construction.

This would not be an El Cheapo method of making a precision CNC mill, judging by current machine production methods, but it would cut out a lot of the huge outlay for a trip down the pattern/casting path and life expectancy would be just as long using the linear rails now in production.
Ian.