[louieatienza]

75 was is reliable. the original novakon was set to 100 with the gecko drives. you wont get significantly more from a similar sized servo. what youll get instead is a much faster top speed - 590ipm instead of 200-300ipm with the geckos in my case.

nothing wrong with steppers is what im saying

of course, my maho has a 7kw y axis servo, but thats a different topic.

Not at all! I use steppers on my machines as well. But your Novakon is also a larger machine with larger steppers and excellent (Gecko) drives. Just keeping expectations realistic for the cognoscenti here!

[handlewanker]

Hi, for my part, once the start button has been activated, the machine will act all by itself....no need for me to stand and watch it, waiting for the final curtain to fall.....all that stuff was in the good old days when I was on a manual mill.........CNC is the New World Order, and I think I'll be going along for the ride.....who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks......ha ha to that one.

I think the acceleration figures for the SVM-0 could be gleaned from the drive characteristics, allowing for the weight of the table, stepper type and ball screw pitch etc.....the small table should practically wizz from A to B....anything faster an you'd have to slow it down a notch.

As far as I know, a stepper is a stepper, and if the bigger one has more muscle to move bigger tables, it won't rotate twice as fast as the smaller one.........so what has acceleration got to do with it.....you could fit bigger steppers of course if you're worried it won't get up to speed quick enough......the difference in grunt AFAIK is only in the stepper's body length.

If the SVM-0 moves only half as fast as it's bigger brother, the anticipated SVM-1, it'll still be very exciting to have working, and to bring us down to Earth with a practical balance.......it's a whole lot better than a retrofit manual mill with dovetails, tacked on ball screws and an overweighted head casting not designed to act as a Z axis, and as the price for a manual retrofit is about the same as the SVM-0, but without the work load to retrofit it.........what can I say......is it worth waiting for.

BTW......nobody mills with the end of an end mill.....unless you're plunging in or drilling, it's always on the side of the cutter no matter how big or small, long or short it nay be, or how deep or shallow the cut.

I advocated milling with a shallow cut and more of them to lessen the load on the structure as time is of no importance for hobby work, whereas working to an easy status is.

At the same time if a carbide cutter suffers prematurely by having the end of the cutter badly blunted and worn by over use with shallow cutting.......just cut the end 2mm off and you have an almost new cutter......most of the wear in a cutter takes place right at the end.

I'll be doing mostly steel work anyway and small stuff at that, so cutter life is par for the course, but easy peasy with a tool and cutter grinder and a Deckel D bit grinder on tap as well.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

BTW, while we're on the subject of acceleration, some years ago I watched a guy in our toolroom honing the bore of a 200mm diam cylinder, and the drive head was suspended from an arm with a spring........without the spring the weight of the drive head would have tired the guy out pumping it up and down a while.

Weight does have an affect as well as effect on performance when gravity is in the equation, so the SVM-0 will perform better with the gas strut than without it......I'm a stepper hugger by the way.....LOL.

BTW again, having more mass in the head casting rather than less with the same mass in the column to support it is counterproductive to reliability, and the heavier the head the lower the frequency needed to make it oscillate as a spring, or the heavy toffee apple on a thin stick syndrome.
Ian.

[G59]

After reading your long post Ian, I give up.

When you get your machine, just enjoy it for what it is.
Good day.

[louieatienza]

BTW, while we're on the subject of acceleration, some years ago I watched a guy in our toolroom honing the bore of a 200mm diam cylinder, and the drive head was suspended from an arm with a spring........without the spring the weight of the drive head would have tired the guy out pumping it up and down a while.

Weight does have an affect as well as effect on performance when gravity is in the equation, so the SVM-0 will perform better with the gas strut than without it......I'm a stepper hugger by the way.....LOL.

BTW again, having more mass in the head casting rather than less with the same mass in the column to support it is counterproductive to reliability, and the heavier the head the lower the frequency needed to make it oscillate as a spring, or the heavy toffee apple on a thin stick syndrome.
Ian.

I don't know where you come up with this stuff, having admittedly no CNC experience. The more mass, the higher the resonant frequency. Period.

The gas strut has little if any to do with the performance of this machine and more to do with not having the head crashing down with the power off. Plus if you were accelerating down, there's this thing called gravity that would be more of an assistance rather than being impeded by a gas strut.

[louieatienza]

Hi, for my part, once the start button has been activated, the machine will act all by itself....no need for me to stand and watch it, waiting for the final curtain to fall.....all that stuff was in the good old days when I was on a manual mill.........CNC is the New World Order, and I think I'll be going along for the ride.....who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks......ha ha to that one.

I think the acceleration figures for the SVM-0 could be gleaned from the drive characteristics, allowing for the weight of the table, stepper type and ball screw pitch etc.....the small table should practically wizz from A to B....anything faster an you'd have to slow it down a notch.

As far as I know, a stepper is a stepper, and if the bigger one has more muscle to move bigger tables, it won't rotate twice as fast as the smaller one.........so what has acceleration got to do with it.....you could fit bigger steppers of course if you're worried it won't get up to speed quick enough......the difference in grunt AFAIK is only in the stepper's body length.

If the SVM-0 moves only half as fast as it's bigger brother, the anticipated SVM-1, it'll still be very exciting to have working, and to bring us down to Earth with a practical balance.......it's a whole lot better than a retrofit manual mill with dovetails, tacked on ball screws and an overweighted head casting not designed to act as a Z axis, and as the price for a manual retrofit is about the same as the SVM-0, but without the work load to retrofit it.........what can I say......is it worth waiting for.

BTW......nobody mills with the end of an end mill.....unless you're plunging in or drilling, it's always on the side of the cutter no matter how big or small, long or short it nay be, or how deep or shallow the cut.

I advocated milling with a shallow cut and more of them to lessen the load on the structure as time is of no importance for hobby work, whereas working to an easy status is.

At the same time if a carbide cutter suffers prematurely by having the end of the cutter badly blunted and worn by over use with shallow cutting.......just cut the end 2mm off and you have an almost new cutter......most of the wear in a cutter takes place right at the end.

I'll be doing mostly steel work anyway and small stuff at that, so cutter life is par for the course, but easy peasy with a tool and cutter grinder and a Deckel D bit grinder on tap as well.
Ian.

I think you may be misinformed about some things.

First, running a virgin program on a CNC may require constant attention to ensure everything's OK. This is even more true for the virgin CNC operator. You'll make mistakes, we all do. You don't want to make the costly ones that ruin expensive equipment or tools.

A stepper's top speed is proportional to the amount of voltage applied, and its max torque limited by the current setting of the drive. Some of the disadvantages of larger steppers are generally higher detent torque (not microstep friendly) and higher inductance (necessitates more expensive drives and higher voltage PSU.)

The speed you (should) mill on a CNC is determined by the specs of the tool manufacturer. This gives the tool maximum performance and life. If you don't run them within those parameters you're wasting money and time.

I suggest again as I did two years ago to you, to learn the CAM side of things. Get something that has at least some rudimentary form of simulation. See what the different toolpaths strategies do and learn when to use them (and when NOT.) You don't want to finally receive a machine and then try to figure out what's going on. Download Mach3 and run it in simulation mode. Load a program and see what happens. This is way more important than all the other nonsense about gas struts, steppers, max acceleration, rotary axis... If you put as much into this that you do with all the other gibberish you'd be so far ahead when machine arrives.

[ihavenofish]

heavier is better. period. (well, at this level anyway)

the head should be as heavy as possible while still being able to move

[yulolaf]

You guys realize you are arguing with someone who loves to argue, facts don't matter. They can't bother to vet even their own argument let alone the facts you present. The svm-0 is tiny, lets not forget that. Basically a taig or sx2 has more travels and are regularly bought or built for $2500 or less and in a couple weekends, if "milling with a shallow cut and more of them to lessen the load on the structure as time is of no importance for hobby work" is your goal. Could have been learning how to cnc over a year ago for less than half of what some have spent.

[louieatienza]

heavier is better. period. (well, at this level anyway)

the head should be as heavy as possible while still being able to move

Exactly... Leave the light axes for the lasers, plasmas, and 3D printers.

[ihavenofish]

this:

"They can't bother to vet even their own argument let alone the facts you present."

and then this:

The svm-0 is tiny, lets not forget that. Basically a taig or sx2 has more travels and are regularly bought or built for $2500 or less and in a couple weekends, if "milling with a shallow cut and more of them to lessen the load on the structure as time is of no importance for hobby work" is your goal. Could have been learning how to cnc over a year ago for less than half of what some have spent.

if you think the svm-0 is in any way comparable in size to a taig or an sx2, you need to "vet your facts"

that would be like saying a brother TC-211 is the same as a sherline because they have similar x travels.

[yulolaf]

this:



and then this:


if you think the svm-0 is in any way comparable in size to a taig or an sx2, you need to "vet your facts"

that would be like saying a brother TC-211 is the same as a sherline because they have similar x travels.

I wasn't talking about you BTW but yes I did and while it is heavier, like I said " if "milling with a shallow cut and more of them to lessen the load on the structure as time is of no importance for hobby work" is your goal." then a cheaper sherline would be the better option than a brother to learn how to cnc.

[ihavenofish]

i knew you didnt mean me, but i wanted some clarity. you made it sound like you thought the taig or sx2 were better machined for the money... which would be a silly thing to say

anyway. weve scared defeng off again with aimless rambling. hahah.

[yulolaf]

i knew you didnt mean me, but i wanted some clarity. you made it sound like you thought the taig or sx2 were better machined for the money... which would be a silly thing to say

anyway. weve scared defeng off again with aimless rambling. hahah.

My point was exactly what I said, if you want to take light cuts to learn how to cnc then you can do it with a taig or sx2 much cheaper. seems to be a lot of comprehension problems in this thread.

[high-side]

I think you may be misinformed about some things.

First, running a virgin program on a CNC may require constant attention to ensure everything's OK. This is even more true for the virgin CNC operator. You'll make mistakes, we all do. You don't want to make the costly ones that ruin expensive equipment or tools.

A stepper's top speed is proportional to the amount of voltage applied, and its max torque limited by the current setting of the drive. Some of the disadvantages of larger steppers are generally higher detent torque (not microstep friendly) and higher inductance (necessitates more expensive drives and higher voltage PSU.)

The speed you (should) mill on a CNC is determined by the specs of the tool manufacturer. This gives the tool maximum performance and life. If you don't run them within those parameters you're wasting money and time.

I suggest again as I did two years ago to you, to learn the CAM side of things. Get something that has at least some rudimentary form of simulation. See what the different toolpaths strategies do and learn when to use them (and when NOT.) You don't want to finally receive a machine and then try to figure out what's going on. Download Mach3 and run it in simulation mode. Load a program and see what happens. This is way more important than all the other nonsense about gas struts, steppers, max acceleration, rotary axis... If you put as much into this that you do with all the other gibberish you'd be so far ahead when machine arrives.

+1

[louieatienza]

My point was exactly what I said, if you want to take light cuts to learn how to cnc then you can do it with a taig or sx2 much cheaper. seems to be a lot of comprehension problems in this thread.

Related to this, if yoy are only taking light cuts, then wht the need for high torque?

[handlewanker]

Whatever.....whatever ....whatever.......anyone who speaks about an X2...3 SX whatever in the same breath as the SVM-0 has totally lost the plot many many moons ago.....physical size has nothing to do with a comparison assessment.

For what it's worth.....the "class" of work I'll be doing has no meaning when you compare it to industrial, light industrial or plain money making time conscious back yard hobby work.

At the same time if all I have to look forward to is the performance by comparison to an SX2 et al, I'd give it up and continue to build the bridge mill I started.

Maybe I haven't cut my teeth on CNC stuff yet, but I know mills and cutters and what they can do......any of the aforementioned retrofit hobby mills are not going to see the inside of my workspace....ever.

One of the main reasons I chose the SVM-0 was because it is designed as a CNC mill from the ground up and can perform and has proved it can on UTUBE, whereas all the other DIY retrofits have a track record of bad workmanship, poor design criteria and too many non essential throw away parts in the initial machine purchased package.

It's true I have a long learning curve to pursue, but like driving a car....you need to get behind the wheel and go for it, no fooling around with simulations or manuals.

I've got the Mach3 trial demo on my computer, but it's totally meaningless when you can't relate to what's happening.

It would be better for me if there was a 3D app for my IPAD that simulated a mill as a real life machine and moved according to what I programmed it to do in Mach3.

looking at the Mach3 screen simulation on my computer by itself is total gibberish to me......almost like driving a car by remote control with a TV screen but not seeing the road......they do that on a TV show and most times they end up with the car jammed against a wall or upside down.....LOL.

That bit someone mentioned about the head "needing" to be heavy to absorb vibration.......total rubbish if the column is not a very rigid construction........a total case of if the tail is big enough it will wag the dog.

Anyway, we'll have to see what the mill performs like once the covers are off and the ropes are learned......once the basics are learned the rest is easy........until I get my grubby hands on it I won't know.......perhaps if louie gets his mill first he'll be more qualified to pass judgement.
Ian.

[ihavenofish]

That bit someone mentioned about the head "needing" to be heavy to absorb vibration.......total rubbish if the column is not a very rigid construction........a total case of if the tail is big enough it will wag the dog.

this isnt an argument. we are simply trying to tell you facts. for example, the above is NOT a fact. it is the opposite of a fact. i rigid column is fairly useless if the head is light weight and floppy. a heavy head on a relatively floppy column is better by far. the head damps the vibration before it gets to the column. the column certainly flexes, but it will be less likely to resonate if the head is massive. flex can be worked with, every machine from a $1000 to $1000000 has flex. resonance has to be eliminated whenever possible.

this is why you can mill steel on a low grade 120lb mill like the x2, but youd have a hard time at it on a 7500lb high end router like a biesse or scm. its all about where the mass is, and the head is the first place to add it.

its also why companies like sandvik make dampened tools for "light" bt30 machines, to eliminate the resonance right in the tool, before it even reaches the head and beyond.

[rustyh]

This is the exact reason I dont use this forum at all anymore........one opinionated know it all that ruined it completely

[Tkamsker]

Rusthy but from time to time it is entertaining isnt it ? ,,,,
The last weeks i did a lot of testing on real machines .. I learned a lot and on the comments i can tell Who has experience or just opinions ..

[ihavenofish]

i can tell Who has experience or just opinions ..

i have both :P