[BurrMan]

One more step to look at is to be sure the bios on the laptop is up-to-date. The latest bios may be fixing issues with the latest drivers.

You can also go into the computers power options and be sure that the power options are not controlling anything about the display and gpu. No suspend or hibernate or save power and such on it.

[shred]

Updating the BIOS is never a bad idea, but this is V24 XORing the rubberband graphics (I would guess using GDI or maybe DirectX, but the license agreement says no decompiling the code) which is a no-no in DWM. The only fix beyond hacking the code (unlikely) is to disable DWM so the rendering goes back to the 'old way' where there is a usable DC for V24 to work with.

That said, if you can find an 'un-certified' non-WDDM video driver, that might also work if the OS decides it won't do DWM in the absence of the WDDM cert, but installing an unsigned driver onto Win8 is likely to be another challenge.

[BurrMan]

Updating the BIOS is never a bad idea, but this is V24 XORing the rubberband graphics .

It really is the driver though. It's the card and it's driver on win8.

I mean, I don't have to disable anything on my machine to run V24......... Actually, I have never had to disable it, even back in V22. I stopped having to set to run as admin in V24.

Integrated graphics give the driver no control. The motherboard becomes more responsible. It gets convoluted. Processors now. motherboard drivers. etc, etc......

[TAProwler]

I mean, I don't have to disable anything on my machine to run V24......... Actually, I have never had to disable it, even back in V22. I stopped having to set to run as admin in V24.

But, you're talking about a desktop machine - right? Or, are you saying that about your laptop? If it is a laptop, what are your recommendations for a machine that will run BCC without graphics issues?

Thanks,
Todd

[BurrMan]

But, you're talking about a desktop machine - right? Thanks,
Todd

Well, yes. But the issue we are talking about isn't a "laptop" issue. My brother runs a laptop exclusively, although, I recommend not to. It's just not the computer to use for the task. The only reason someone should use one is if they "are SO MOBILE", like on planes or in hotels all the time.

The laptop he is using is a dell precision m3400 or something like that. It doesn't have an integrated graphics system. It has an Nvidia quadro card in it.

[TAProwler]

Well, yes. But the issue we are talking about isn't a "laptop" issue.

Right. But, try to shop for a laptop that doesn't have integrated graphics and isn't $2K.

My brother runs a laptop exclusively, although, I recommend not to. It's just not the computer to use for the task. The only reason someone should use one is if they "are SO MOBILE", like on planes or in hotels all the time.

That's me!!! 18-20 days a month.

The laptop he is using is a dell precision m3400 or something like that. It doesn't have an integrated graphics system. It has an Nvidia quadro card in it.

I'll check that out. Probably a gaming type laptop for use with applications that have big graphics demands.

In the meantime, I have to get this BC running soon. So, I'm going to strip the HD out of this cheap machine and install a new HD with my old copy of Win7. It'll be two more weeks of migrating applications, emails, and documents, etc. But, at least I'd have something that runs and it will be the least expensive option when compared to an expensive laptop that will get beat up going thru security or copy of V26 (that will also need the better laptop).

It's never simple.
Thanks for all your help and insight.
R/Todd

[TAProwler]

Updating the BIOS is never a bad idea, but this is V24 XORing the rubberband graphics (I would guess using GDI or maybe DirectX, but the license agreement says no decompiling the code) which is a no-no in DWM. The only fix beyond hacking the code (unlikely) is to disable DWM so the rendering goes back to the 'old way' where there is a usable DC for V24 to work with.

That said, if you can find an 'un-certified' non-WDDM video driver, that might also work if the OS decides it won't do DWM in the absence of the WDDM cert, but installing an unsigned driver onto Win8 is likely to be another challenge.

Thanks for the insight, Shred. It sounds like you are pretty well versed in this area. I'm certain you understand what's going on here. Unfortunately, it's gonna take me several hours of googling and few nights to "sleep on it" to figure out what you just said. LOL

I may not be a smart man.....but I know when I meet one!!

Thanks,
Todd

[ger21]

I downloaded the latest graphics driver from HP.

The latest drivers won't be available from HP. You need to get the latest available directly from AMD, or here:
Videocard Drivers

[The Engine Guy]

If you were to install Win 7 on the current drive that should at least work wouldn`t it ? ? I have done it in the past when transferring to new drives/computers but not with Win 8 so not 100% sure it would work


Then if you have not already got one then I would suggest using an SSD drive, much faster, also would save you mountains of work if you had some software like Acronis or Norton that you could take an "image" of your drive with the Win 7 OS and then just load that "image" to the new drive, you would then have an exact replica of your original drive so should be a lot less work that way maybe ? ? ?

Regards
Rob
:rainfro: :rainfro: :rainfro:

[shred]

Thanks for the insight, Shred. It sounds like you are pretty well versed in this area. I'm certain you understand what's going on here. Unfortunately, it's gonna take me several hours of googling and few nights to "sleep on it" to figure out what you just said. LOL

I can't say I know exactly what's going on, but I spent a lot of time in PC software development-- everything from BIOS to apps and back, so I have a good idea what the basic problem is, but it's not one that's an easy fix if you can't get DWM off (and Microsoft obviously doesn't want you doing that in Win8). The good thing is you really don't need to know the details, just that Win8 and V24 don't get along.

On laptops, I know someone that uses a Dell Precision NB with V24 and Win7 as well with good success. The separate video card (nVidia in that case) is a good thing. Some of the gaming laptops can probably do it as well, although those video solutions tend to focus on DirectX instead of OpenGL and OpenGL is used by most of CAD software.

[jrmach]

So to the OP,if you find a fix could you post back,even if it is in a month or more????????
As more time goes by,many of us are going to be in your boat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless Windows 8 with an update suddenly does not suck.Or Windows 9 fixes 8.

[BurrMan]

So to the OP,if you find a fix could you post back,even if it is in a month or more????????
As more time goes by,many of us are going to be in your boat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless Windows 8 with an update suddenly does not suck.Or Windows 9 fixes 8.

You'll be looking for an update to the "video cards driver" for windows 8 (and again for windows 9)... It's not BobCad.

[BurrMan]

Right. But, try to shop for a laptop that doesn't have integrated graphics and isn't $2K.


That's me!!! 18-20 days a month.

I'll check that out. Probably a gaming type laptop for use with applications that have big graphics demands.
R/Todd

Yeah, that's a "workstation" class laptop and I think he paid $3500.00 or so...........

It's not about "needing a 3000 dollar computer to run BobCad"..... That same computer back when V24 was released ran it fine. But, it's about how that same hardware has dealt with a new OS coupled with a 3 or 4 or 5 year old program and what happens now.

Usually, you cant get drivers for integrated graphics chips that are current. They wont be listed at the manufacturer level. The last updated version is only available from the vendor (old and not to be updated anymore)......

[shred]

You'll be looking for an update to the "video cards driver" for windows 8 (and again for windows 9)... It's not BobCad.

Actually it is BobCAD. They used a graphics programming technique that isn't supported under DWM. Lots of people did that back then. But since Vista, Microsoft has been saying "don't do that anymore". You could argue I guess that it's Microsofts fault in Win8 not having an off-switch for DWM, but no matter, BCC is where the fix will have to come from since MS isn't likely to move anytime soon now that the 'designers' have taken over and their precious "Metro" interface requires it.

[BurrMan]

Actually it is BobCAD. They used a graphics programming technique that isn't supported under DWM. Lots of people did that back then. But since Vista, Microsoft has been saying "don't do that anymore". You could argue I guess that it's Microsofts fault in Win8 not having an off-switch for DWM, .

Well, I can agree with the notion, but V24 was designed long before windows 8. The drivers he's running on that system would probably follow that same suit.

but no matter, BCC is where the fix will have to come from since MS isn't likely to move anytime soon now that the 'designers' have taken over and their precious "Metro" interface requires it

My Nvidia driver has a definable profile I can set that puts the card into development mode. The video driver is in control of all the instructions for "transparency/fade/fancy"..... Cant do that with integrated graphics. Although, it's unlikely that BobCad will re-write V24 for the current situation. It's also unlikely that the OEM drivers written for the OEM integrated card will be re-written for the issues created.

Hence the need to get a full card on your system.

[EDIT] My video card cost $2000.00. That was a few years back. I just updated my driver to the latest version the other day. It still runs all my stuff fine. I wonder what gaming cards were being output then?

With that said, my brothers Nvidia card is an OEM "M" card. There are no updates to it's driver in a few years now. The newest drivers being released are NOT loaded on it.

[jrmach]

I like my 23,it has its place and time to use,So what this means is v23 is going to suk if I get a new computer next year,of lap top design?Loading 7 the best fix?

[shred]

Well, I can agree with the notion, but V24 was designed long before windows 8. The drivers he's running on that system would probably follow that same suit.

Win8 requires "WDDM" drivers, which means signed-and-approved-by-Microsoft... unless he can sort out the hacks needed to get an unsigned driver onto the box... wasn't fun last I tried it during Win8 OEM development a few years ago.

We agree there's not much motivation for BCC to redo V24 (and it's not a simple quick fix), when V25 works ok with DWM, and V26 maybe better (I haven't tried it). The easiest fix might be an upgrade from V24 rather than spending hours trying to get Win8 to do something it doesn't want to.

V23 is also not going to work well with Win8.

[BurrMan]

Win8 requires "WDDM" drivers, which means signed-and-approved-by-Microsoft... so if he's running Win8, the drivers are designed for it (unless he can sort out the hacks needed to get an unsigned driver onto the box... wasn't fun last I tried it during Win8 OEM development a few years ago). We agree there's not much motivation for BCC to redo V24, when V25 works ok with DWM, and V26 maybe better (I haven't tried it). The easiest fix might be an upgrade from V24.

V23 is also not going to work well with Win8.

Yeah, well the "signed and approved" part is where the distinction your making is not good. I mean, V24 was not made for Win8. Microsoft will sign and approve stuff for win8, for win8! That's the part where they change path like you mention, and tell dev's to "not do that anymore, because we have changed things"....

The driver devs though, are driven by the users and their needs, so people use their cards. The OEM side resides with the original reseller. They wont change their drivers because of your need to run unobstructed by new limitations.

[BurrMan]

I like my 23,it has its place and time to use,So what this means is v23 is going to suk if I get a new computer next year,of lap top design?

Well, jr, that depends on the laptop and hardware you get with it. remember, I never had to set "compatibility" on any of them, including V22. Some people did though.

Loading 7 the best fix?

It's just the easiest for you, if you don't have the inkling to do the r&d and see if things work for you with your new system.

Don't upgrade your OS until you know you should.

[newman55598]

If you are looking at new laptops take a look at the Toshiba Qosmio. They are a gaming computer starting at about 1100.