[CalG]

Hello

I've been poking around with a Yaskawa USA REM servo motor. which should be matched with a CACR PR07 Amplifier . Those seem to be quite rare.
This motor holds a pair of 1500 counts per rev encoders. One is TTL, and the other 12v. Both square wave.

Can anyone advise a scheme or suggest an alternate (available) amplifier that will work with this combination.

The MPA servo amplifier I have only has settings for Encoders with multiples of 512 counts per rev.

An Emerson FX drive is incompatible in a number of ways. ;-)

Comments or advice? I don't know much about servo motor and amplifier compatibility. Perhaps an encoder change is my best option.

TIA

Cal

[mike_Kilroy]

can u list motor spec sheet? w/more info there will be alternatives. we run most other mfgr motors with our drives all the time....

[CalG]

Mike Thanks for the response.

USAREM 07A E2NX

At 200Volts

Rated out put 700W
Rated Torque 2.23 N-m
Cont Max T 2.67 N-m
Peak T 6.67 N-m
Rated Current 5.7A
Rated Speed 3000rpm 4500 max
Torque Constant 0.46 N-m/A
MoI kg-M2 X 10^? 372
Power Rate 13.3 kW/s
Inertia Time Constant 2.5ms
Inductance Time Constant 10ms

Info about encoders (optical) from the Servopack amplifier specs in the same document next page. (assume the in to the Amp is the out from the encoders)

Input Sign and pulse, two phase
90deg diff.(A+B) 5V TTL line driver
or +12V open collector
Pulse frequency 0-200kpps

Aux Reference pulse 2 phase 90deg diff (A+B)
pulse form +12V open collector
pulse freq 0-100kpps 4 multiplier internal processing

Control signal clear and inhibit
pulse form 5V TTL or +12V open collector

PG Pulse output
Pulse form Phase A+B Line driver
Phase C open collector

freq dividing ratio 1/1, 1/2,1/3,1/4,1/5,1/6,1/10,/12,1
/15,1/20,1/30,2/3,2/5 (HEX rotary switch)

I hope this formats the way it was typed.

Thanks for your attention!

Cal


PG pulse Output

[Al_The_Man]

What kind of control are you intending to use with the drives?
This may be the deciding factor as to who's drives you can use, for e.g. if using Mach, the Granite drives should work?
Al.

[CalG]

Ill look at those GD amplifiers

[mike_Kilroy]

so summarizing what kind of amp you need, you need one rated:

200v or higher
6amp continuous output
TTL encoder input
pulse/dir output
AC or brush type? Pick one - those specs do not tell if this is a brush motor or not. (2 wires or 3 for running it) or (brushe caps sticking out the sides?)

I think AMC (a-m-c.com) has drives that can meet these specs too. Just saw forum on here with relatively new drive called rutex that may do, and I know Kollmorgen (.com) does also.

[CalG]

Mike,

I am sorry to omit the important bit regarding motor type. You know how it goes, when a topic is in the front of one's own mind, one assumes everybody else is thinking the same way:-) In my defense, that little detail is NOT included in the specifications listing..;-) But no excuses..

The Yaskawa USAREM is a 3ph brushless AC device. No Brushes!

Your suggestions regarding amplifier characteristics is right on. I had hoped that there might be a contemporary device that offered the flexibilty to match with this motors encoders. As mentioned, the AMC amplifier does not allow 1500ppr encoder input. (Though perhaps 512X3 would be accepted. Close!)

The Granite Devices units look promising The peak voltage limit of the Granite Devices (180V) may not be a show stopper. Most of the service application will be at rotational speeds well below peak. I need to take another look at the combination. Along with the motor performance curves.

I took too much time perusing e-bay, and it seems that the Yaskawa CACR-SR series drives are quite common. At first pass, they are described as backwards compatible. I will compare the wiring for those units a bit more closely.

Wouldn't it be nice if motors and drives were somehow in-seperable.
Ah, but then they would be called "package drives" ,

Cheers

[Al_The_Man]

AFAIK all AMC drives are all non-intelligent drives and are intended to be used with controllers that close the PID loop rather than the drive, which includes EMC if used with the proper card, this uses the drive in the torque mode, AMC only use the encoder when used in tach feedback mode, but can take 1500p/rev encoders.
Al.

[CalG]

Sorry to make reference to the AMC drive which I have not had any exposure. I am opening the AMC pages now, (though the navigation to brushless drives appears to be a bit balky.)

With a through reading, the MPA amplifier offers input or an assortment of encoder counts.

including

250, 360, 400, 500, 720, 1000, 1024, 2000, and 4096 ppr

Just no 1500 ppr ...my luck...

Help me understand a detail . The term "Simulated Encoder Signals" is the header for this section of the operations manual.

the text reads:
"For external counting or position control, 9-pin D type connector that has TTL compimentary outputs is provided. This Simulates quadrature encoder channel A and B signals. A differential mark signal is also available"

Please tell me if you can, just what this paragraph describes. The "simulation" ande "output" throws me off.

This amplifier also serves for motor pole counts of 4,6 8 and brush type. (The later without resolver feed back requirement) I have not determined the Yaskawa motor pole count. I best go spin it around once while connected to the o-scope.

[CalG]

Can a DC brushless drive be used to control an originally AC Brushless design motor with only the penalty of slightly decreased performance?
i.e. V/rpm or Torque/ amp.

TIA

CalG

[Al_The_Man]

The 'simulated encoder output' generally refers to such as AC sinusoidal motors fitted with for example a resolver, the drive will extrapolate and produce a pseudo encoder signal of various resolutions and of 5v Differential in nature for use by the CNC controller.
AC sinusoidal can generally be used with a BLDC drive, there should be no noticeable performance although some report the sinusoidal control being smoother, especially at lower rpm, but I have used them in BLDC mode with no noticeable difference.
With BLDC two stator windings are energized at any given time, with the AC all 3 windings are powered simultaneously.
Evidently in some manufacturers products, the shape of the rotor magnets can be different with AC sinusoidal having domed tops to the magnet, rather than following the natural dia. of the rotor?
I haven't had the opportunity to confirm this, however.
Al.

[mactec54]

CalG

Do you have the PDF for this motor Drive, this is about 20 to 30 years old, still a good motor if you can get the right drive for it, I have the PDF if you need it

[CalG]

It is a series of "photo copies" of some original manuscript.

From the Yaskawa pages document reference TSE-S800. A "generic" outline of the Series R servo drives (with specs) . Is the document you have different?

The motor does appear to be a good one, and it is fitted with a gear reducer that makes it just right for this process motion application.

If budget were no consideration, I'm sure a solution would come rapidly.

Knowledge has a value as well.

[mactec54]

CalG

I do have some of the old manuals, But the PDF you have is just a copy of what is in the manual everything is there that you need for that Motor Drive information

Is your PDF the TSE-S800 2.8C

[mike_Kilroy]

calg,

some more info fwiw.

a motor designed for trapazoidal commutation (aka BLDC) run on a sinusoidal commutated drive can have a system performance reduction upto about 20%.

a motor designed for sinusoidal commutation (aka ac brushless) run on a trapazoidal commutated drive can have a system performance reduction upto about 20%.

ratings such as nm/amp and v/krpm have a difference factor of iirc about 1.6x between the two.

the derate is due to extra heat in the motor due to mismatched current vs motor bemf waveform: a trap designed bldc motor has a trapazoidal shaped bemf while an ac servo has a sine shaped bemf waveform.

for you, mix and matching will probably be transparent as AL attests to since who is going to realize 10% less rating? Hard for someone not familiar with it to quantify.

Al, fyi, sine bemf vs trap bemf has more to do with winding and lamination shape than magnet shape; ie., dome shaped magnets in themself do not make sine bemf: most of the magnets I see today on ac motors are still square.

calg, want to know how many "poles" your motor is short 2 of the motor leads and rotate it thru 1 mechanical rev: count the humps. humps= no of poles. this is top secret info so don;t share with others - share and I loose job security -people will know everything I know and I wont be needed anymore

calg, search ebay for CE06 kollmorgen drive; it will run your motor & encoder fine and also give u the simulated encoder output to feed on to a mach3/emc cnc controller. if you dont find what you want feel free to pm me for quote on used or new one.

[CalG]

With the gear reducer hanging off the front of this motor, Spinning by hand is a real chore! ;-)

but perhaps acedemic at this moment.

I have just spent over an hour looking at the documents for the CACR-SR seris drives, and I must say it's impossible to put numbers to application.

In example, there is an amplifier described as CACR-SR15BC1KSY392

The Yaskawa literature on the -SR amplifiers has no reference to BCKSY designations.

An inaccurate description? Some other literature? frustration...

I'll take a look for the Kolmorgen Drive...

Thanks

CalG

[CalG]

Seo perhaps?

Well, Ebay comes through...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kollmorgen-S...item1c2044296c

It seems costly for a piece with damage...

[mactec54]

CalG

To hard to turn, Just undo the 4 bolts holding the motor to the gear box & slide it off

[CalG]

Set it up in the lathe output shaft chucked up, turn the spindle slowly, observe the response on the o-scope.

I did that not long ago to take a look at the encoders. I suppose I should have checked the motor poles at the same time ;-)

[mike_Kilroy]

ya, u should find working one for that. oh well.