[keen]

Hi folk.

Computers are not my strong point and I don't want to embark on anything to complex.

I want to install pathpilot on my other 1100 now ,However to import a new Tormach controller into NZ with the current exchange rate, freight and other fees will be about $1600.00 NZ....ouch!

So I am wondering if my 2007 Dell dimension C521 with XP would suit. It looks like it would accept a Tormach PCI card in the one slot... if I remove the modem card. See pics.

That way I would only need to import a Tormach pathpilot PCI kit for a fraction of that cost.

Expert advise most welcome. Please note if it is risky or difficult please tell me!

Cheers keen

[PCW_MESA]

The answer is a resounding....

probably.

You will likely need to turn off most power management options in the BIOS, like "Cool and Quiet", and cstates above C1 etc

[popspipes]

The answer is a resounding....

probably.

You will likely need to turn off most power management options in the BIOS, like "Cool and Quiet", and cstates above C1 etc

It doesnt cost much to try, other than the mesa card. I am thinking about using my old Dell 8200 to try the same thing, just to have for a spare......

[123CNC]

The Intel chipsets, usually on board video and audio, have a pretty good track record of working well with LinuxCNC, therefore the preference.

[keen]

Thanks PCW-MESA.

OK so the BIOS is accessible when it boots up isn't it?

I note Tormach recommend x86 (32) bit architecture ....whatever that is.... and my dell seems to be a " C521 Athion(TM) 64, desktop processor 3500+...whatever all that is....

Tormach also recommend a Intel chipset... and the Dell is a AMD Athion 64 label?

Any translations and explanations welcome.

Keen

[123CNC]

You can always download LinuxCNC to a bootable CD or burn it to a thumbdrive. You can than trial run LinuxCNC and run the Latency test (LinuxCNC Documentation Wiki: Latency-Test).

I didn't see your particular Dell listed in the posted results, but running off a LiveCD or bootable USB will keep your Windows box intact until you have confidence that the PC hardware is up to task. Other common problem areas are on board video/audio or video cards and as PCW mentioned BIOS settings. It is easy and free to try before you buy anything. If unhappy with your current PC, the listed results for motherboards should help you find a decent choice lying around or if you need to shop around.

[keen]

You can always download LinuxCNC to a bootable CD or burn it to a thumbdrive. You can than trial run LinuxCNC and run the Latency test (LinuxCNC Documentation Wiki: Latency-Test).

I didn't see your particular Dell listed in the posted results, but running off a LiveCD or bootable USB will keep your Windows box intact until you have confidence that the PC hardware is up to task. Other common problem areas are on board video/audio or video cards and as PCW mentioned BIOS settings. It is easy and free to try before you buy anything. If unhappy with your current PC, the listed results for motherboards should help you find a decent choice lying around or if you need to shop around.

Thanks 123. Can you explain a bit more what a bootable USB /live CD is - I have a 16GB USB 'key' .... it that it? I also have 52x CD-R 700 MB.....would that work...if so, how would I do that?

keen

[123CNC]

Thanks 123. Can you explain a bit more what a bootable USB /live CD is - I have a 16GB USB 'key' .... it that it? I also have 52x CD-R 700 MB.....would that work...if so, how would I do that?

keen

The 700 MB CD will be too small, need at least a DVD (~2.4 GB or larger). If you do get a DVD, you'll need to download the LinuxCNC Live-CD and using Infrarecorder or other CD/DVD burning software, burn the .hybridISO (ISO image file from download) to the DVD.


Your 16 GB USB key would work fine, but empty it first so that you can burn the ISO image to it. If working on a Windows PC, you'll need to download and install Imagewriter (Win32 Disk Imager download | SourceForge.net). After you download the LinuxCNC ISO http://www.linuxcnc.org/linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso (latest version, or go to LinuxCNC.org and locate an earlier version if you like). Then use the Win32 Disk Imager to move the .hybridISO file to your USB. Make sure your Dell is setup in the BIOS for USB boot, power down, install USB key with ISO image and reboot. A prompt selection should appear and select the Try It without Install item.

LinuxCNC is generally not to picky on the hardware side, but it doesn't hurt to test and check before going to all the trouble of wiping out a Windows box that won't work or at least not work well. It may be best to keep the Windows machine a Windows machine if you get unlucky with your Dell.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Unlike Mach4 using the PP, LinuxCNC/PathPilot using the Mesa board should be relatively un-fussy about the specific motherboard being used. It is the Mach3 PP driver that is primarily responsible for most MB-related problems. When the PP is eliminated, and replaced with a motion controller, even Mach3 can be configured to work well with almost any PC, including most laptops. I would bet the Dell Dimension would work just fine with PathPilot.

Regards,
Ray L.

[123CNC]

Unlike Mach4 using the PP, LinuxCNC/PathPilot using the Mesa board should be relatively un-fussy about the specific motherboard being used. It is the Mach3 PP driver that is primarily responsible for most MB-related problems. When the PP is eliminated, and replaced with a motion controller, even Mach3 can be configured to work well with almost any PC, including most laptops. I would bet the Dell Dimension would work just fine with PathPilot.

Regards,
Ray L.

Generally LinuxCNC is not too fussy, and typically works very well with the parallel port and PCI/PCIe cards. I believe the hardware and motherboard issues boil down to conflicts with the real time kernel and hardware level interrupts. I have run into a few PCs that even after all of the work-arounds to mitigate video issues and other realtime improvement hacks still had 100,000+ microS latency, not good at all. Again, real problems are likely far and few between, but it just might pay to look first before you leap.

[wtopace]

From the looks of your picture, it looks like the motherboard in your Dell has both a PCI and PCI-e port available.

Why not borrow the Mesa card from your other Tormach temporarily to test it out? If the Dell has anything important the hard drive, make sure to back it up or swap it out before installing PathPilot, as the PathPilot installer will image over your drive and effectively erase everything on it. This would give you positive confirmation that the PathPilot upgarde kit would work before you order it.

For what it's worth, the Linux kernel is really not very picky driver-wise about underlying hardware. You should be just fine with just about any 64bit machine. I have had 0 hiccups with my controller PC that I threw together with some old junk. I saw a recommendation above about running a 32bit processor, but the Tormach-provided image runs just fine on my 64bit proc.

[keen]

From the looks of your picture, it looks like the motherboard in your Dell has both a PCI and PCI-e port available.

Why not borrow the Mesa card from your other Tormach temporarily to test it out? If the Dell has anything important the hard drive, make sure to back it up or swap it out before installing PathPilot, as the PathPilot installer will image over your drive and effectively erase everything on it. This would give you positive confirmation that the PathPilot upgarde kit would work before you order it.

For what it's worth, the Linux kernel is really not very picky driver-wise about underlying hardware. You should be just fine with just about any 64bit machine. I have had 0 hiccups with my controller PC that I threw together with some old junk. I saw a recommendation above about running a 32bit processor, but the Tormach-provided image runs just fine on my 64bit proc.

Thanks - Yes I though about borrowing the Mesa card - but if I had any issues that I did not understand and could not undo ..........I might be in stress city with urgent work coming in.

Keen

[keen]

Thanks Guys!

You have all been a big help.

I have just pulled the side off my old XP (CPU 1000 - Intel chip -XP ) currently running Mac3 on my old 1100 - and it has a PCI card also. So I have a back up plan if the Dell plan A does not work - I can then try the Mesa card in the old controller and it may run for a few years like that. It was originally checked for the pulse stream thingy and it was good.

- So I have purchased the PCI Mesa from Tormach and will let you know how it goes in a week or two when it arrives.

Cheers Keen

[keen]

Hi Guys.

Well the Tormach PCI arrived today and I managed to successfully install Pathpilot on the Dell. Yeeeehaaa !

I had a couple of issues that I though seemed terminal - a real headache for my old brain......but I managed after a couple of hours of trial and error, to get it all working, more by luck than a good understanding of exactly what I was doing. It did not want to complete the initial install...but finally it did, and then it just froze on the Tormach logo - but I eventually discovered it was only the BIOS time setting that was incorrect.....Yaahooo!

It seems to run very fast and smooth compared to mach3 - and it is installed on a series one! fantastic !

A couple of questions: Is that enough to be sure it is running fine...or is there a test I should do?

Also I cant see how to get it to auto boot when the power is switched on. I have trolled through the BIOS settings but cannot see any obvious setting - am I missing something or is it just not available on that Dell?

Keen

[shred]

On most Dells, the BIOS setting for what to do when external power is applied is called "AC Recovery" and you want it set to 'on'. Some low-ends models don't have it but a quick look at the C521 Setup manual indicates it should be there.

[keen]

Thanks Shred.

I needed to permanently install the Dell this morning, including making a Mesa plug plate to fit it.

Anyway when I plugged it all back in and switched the power on - it auto booted!....magic...I had not even got to the BIOS setting stage!

For those of you still on Mach3 and procrastinating about pathpilot....DO IT ! It is a big step up on so many levels. Quicker...smoother...the interface.....the soft limits!.....passive probe facilities.....!

Cheers Keen

[keen]

I ran a two hour 3D job today with all axis running fast and the tool came back to the start fine and did not seem to loose position.

One thing I notice though. the DRO's are slow to enter values - about 2 or three seconds before they appear - sort of sluggish - and when the machine is running they are just frozen - dosnt seem to matter in practise, but it is a bit disconcerting.

Would that be Path Pilot or my computer?

Keen

[bevinp]

Would that be Path Pilot or my computer?

Sorry I don't have PP installed yet but in the absence of responses I offer the following.
It could be the computer since it is likely that LinuxCNC would make screen updates to be almost the lowest priority (maybe just higher than network or USB interrupts). But you shouldn't have a delay when jogging a single axis or MDI-ing one.
Possibility is the monitor driver, or resolution set within PP is too high for the Graphics Processing Unit to cope with. Hopefully someone will give you better advice, There are a few Linux gurus in this forum.

[keen]

Sorry I don't have PP installed yet but in the absence of responses I offer the following.
It could be the computer since it is likely that LinuxCNC would make screen updates to be almost the lowest priority (maybe just higher than network or USB interrupts). But you shouldn't have a delay when jogging a single axis or MDI-ing one.
Possibility is the monitor driver, or resolution set within PP is too high for the Graphics Processing Unit to cope with. Hopefully someone will give you better advice, There are a few Linux gurus in this forum.

Thanks Bevin - I did a few more checks over the weekend.

The problem seems to be only when I run this horrendous code. the PC/PathPilot must dread it ! It is 3D high speed.... masses of commands..... the lines are screaming though, the steppers are screaming away ...poor old pathpilot/PC is asking for paracetomol...coffee....please!.

I need some just watching it. Anyway slowly the DRO's get behind....and eventually stop. But if I slow down the feed, they manage to keep up fine.

No problems at all with my usual 2 1/2 D code. So I guess on that job the computer is at the limit of its processing power and PP is prioritising commands to drive the steppers . I must run that code on my Tormach controller and see if it copes!

Now here is another question....If the PC/Pathpilot cannot stream the code fast enough, does it just slow down the streaming.... but not loose sync?

I am not sure if that is even happening - it seems to be coping with that code - it is not loosing position....but what if the Feed was higher?

Keen

[bevinp]

Thanks Bevin - I did a few more checks over the weekend.

The problem seems to be only when I run this horrendous code. the PC/PathPilot must dread it ! It is 3D high speed.... masses of commands..... the lines are screaming though, the steppers are screaming away ...poor old pathpilot/PC is asking for paracetomol...coffee....please!.

I need some just watching it. Anyway slowly the DRO's get behind....and eventually stop. But if I slow down the feed, they manage to keep up fine.

No problems at all with my usual 2 1/2 D code. So I guess on that job the computer is at the limit of its processing power and PP is prioritising commands to drive the steppers . I must run that code on my Tormach controller and see if it copes!

Now here is another question....If the PC/Pathpilot cannot stream the code fast enough, does it just slow down the streaming.... but not loose sync?

I am not sure if that is even happening - it seems to be coping with that code - it is not loosing position....but what if the Feed was higher?

Keen

Keen,
Since the DRO becomes frozen, then it's clear the processor doesn't have much spare capacity. And increasing the feed during complicated 3 axis motions requiring changes with almost every signal to each stepper will likely reduce further any idle time the CPU. It would be nice if the system is self limiting and will slow streaming in time with the "tiring" CPU, but I don't know enough about LinuxCNC to say that.

I did work on updating software for an aircraft simulator (single processor) quite a few years ago and there the priority routine was feeding each [stepper] its instruction without any delay. If the CPU wasn't able to update all the the new values within the cycle duration then some calcs would not be done, or worse, terminated mid stream leaving stored values inaccurate or unchanged. Maybe the same priority here.
.
Put a post on the LinuxCNC forum, Those guys must know exactly the structure and design of the code and the effect of a slow CPU.
Bevin.