[DaOne]

I was doing a job yesterday and was doing some simple 3/8 16 tapped holes. As the tap was reversing it broke coming out. I pulled out the tool and replaced it. As I was replacing the tool (machine not running) the control alarmed out. I am now getting a "Control Overheat 122" message. I come up about 4 minutes after the machine is turned on even if I do nothing. Is this a sensor failure? Not even sure where to look. I believe this is a 1995 VF2 7500RPM 10HP.

[Donkey Hotey]

Have you checked all the fans? I'm not familiar with the older machines but many of the things should be the same:

• Are the air filters on the cabinet clear? If they're plugged up with coolant goo, they'll flow zero air.
• Are the cabinet fans running?
• What about the internal fans? There should be at least one on the spindle drive and there may be a few on things like the small DC power supply near the computer boards.
• Has anybody recently been poking around inside the cabinet? I think I remember that there were some shrouds that were designed to be 'in place' so the cooling air was directed across the right boards.

[DaOne]

Fans are running fine. There is airflow. Also it is very cold in the shop right now and if I power up the machine it will alarm out in approx 4 minutes. I have checked everything as far as running the machine and the spindle works, everything is fine till it shuts it down with that message. It doesn't mater if I don't touch the machine or attempt to run it. It shuts down in the same time. I have even put a box fan blowing into the control. Same issue.

[rlabonte18]

FROM THE SERVICE MANUAL:::::

The control internal temperature is above 150 degrees F. This can be caused by almost
anything in the control overheating. But is usually caused by overheat of the two regen resis
tors for servos and spindle drive. This alarm will also turn off the servos, spindle drive, coolant
pump, and tool changer. One common cause of this overheat condition is an input line voltage
too high. If this condition remains for 4.5 minutes, an automatic shutdown will begin.

[DaOne]

FROM THE SERVICE MANUAL:::::

The control internal temperature is above 150 degrees F. This can be caused by almost
anything in the control overheating. But is usually caused by overheat of the two regen resis
tors for servos and spindle drive. This alarm will also turn off the servos, spindle drive, coolant
pump, and tool changer. One common cause of this overheat condition is an input line voltage
too high. If this condition remains for 4.5 minutes, an automatic shutdown will begin.

I read that in the manual as well. Basically it doesn't tell much more than its gonna be expensive and they arnt gonna provide any lube.


I Did check the line voltage and the legs very a bit but they are still within range of the tap I have it connected to. This machine is being run off a phase converter. I checked the DC Buss voltage on the diagnostics page and it reads anywhere from 156-160. Anyone else have any ideas?

[Donkey Hotey]

The newer machines have specific error codes for this but the older ones may have lumped them all together:

Have you checked the regen resistor to see if it's hot? I'm wondering if the spindle drive might have a dead or shorted regen IGBT.

[DaOne]

The newer machines have specific error codes for this but the older ones may have lumped them all together:

Have you checked the regen resistor to see if it's hot? I'm wondering if the spindle drive might have a dead or shorted regen IGBT.

Yes the regen resistor is getting warm but not anywhere near where I have felt it get. I am able to run the spindle until it shuts down. It doesnt matter what I do. Spindle can be running or stopped and it still shuts down. As soon as I power up and clear the alarms. I don't even have to do a power up reset. It will alarm out within 10 minutes after alams are cleared untouched.

[Donkey Hotey]

Does the regen resistor get warm even if you just reset everything but don't run the spindle? That's the symptom of a failed regen IGBT in the spindle drive.

[DaOne]

Does the regen resistor get warm even if you just reset everything but don't run the spindle? That's the symptom of a failed regen IGBT in the spindle drive.

Ok, we tested the regen resistor and it was 25 ohms like it is labeled. We then bypassed the temp sensor and the machine never alarmed out but after about 15 minutes of running the spindle it was glowing hot. Not the next question I have. If this is the IGBT. Can we just replace it with the same model (Freqrol A200 FR-A220-5.5K) or does it need to be a Haas replacement? It also has a red/white sticker that says "special type" on it.

[Donkey Hotey]

IGBT: Integrated Gate Bipolar Transistor. It's a part inside the spindle drive, not the regen resistor. The fact that the regen resistor is getting really hot, suggests that the IGBT is leaking.

Electronically what's happening is that the spindle is running with both the throttle and the brakes at the same time. It's spending very little power making the spindle turn, but it's burning up the rest of the electricity heating up that regen resistor.

I might be wrong on this, but that's my guess based on what you've posted--especially the broken tap (indicating a loss of spindle control).

[DaOne]

I am great with electronics and even own hot air tools to do SMD devices. Can I replace the part that failed myself? If not, where can I get this unit cheaper than the $4000 Haas just quoted me? Is it possible to have this repaired? They told me no due to loss of programming. I am not sure where to go on this. I don't even have the $4000 required to fix this this thing.

IGBT: Integrated Gate Bipolar Transistor. It's a part inside the spindle drive, not the regen resistor. The fact that the regen resistor is getting really hot, suggests that the IGBT is leaking.

Electronically what's happening is that the spindle is running with both the throttle and the brakes at the same time. It's spending very little power making the spindle turn, but it's burning up the rest of the electricity heating up that regen resistor.

I might be wrong on this, but that's my guess based on what you've posted--especially the broken tap (indicating a loss of spindle control).

[HuFlungDung]

I feel for ya

If you are the adventurous type, open up the drive and start looking around for major component failure. Find part numbers. Use Google to search for the parts, perhaps at a place like Digikey or Newark.

[Donkey Hotey]

If you are the adventurous type, open up the drive and start looking around for major component failure. Find part numbers. Use Google to search for the parts, perhaps at a place like Digikey or Newark.

Bingo! This ain't no surface-mount device. It's a big screw-terminal device inside the spindle drive. Is it a Magnatek drive or is it a Haas-branded "Vector Drive?"

If you're good with electronics, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what everything is inside that drive. I figured out everything on my own when my Haas Vector Drive failed. It's actually a fairly basic device.

[Donkey Hotey]

I was just thinking about this. It should be easy to determine if the IGBT failed. Since you've already posted voltages, I assume that you know how to poke around in there with a VOM without killing yourself.

Start the machine, start the spindle running and check for voltage across the braking resistor connection. It should obviously be zero or close to it. If there is voltage present while the spindle is running, the IGBT is bad (or the board commanding it is bad).

That IGBT is the spindle drive's brake pedal. When the machine wants to stop the spindle, that transistor switches in and routes the motor's current through the resistor. When the spindle is running normally, the brake pedal (IGBT) should be 'off'.

Also: if you open up the drive, there are three other IGBTs that are for running the spindle. Don't confuse the two. Not knowing your particular drive, I'm only guessing based on what I know from the 2004ish Haas Vector Drive and that they are probably similar.

[DaOne]

Ok, first off this thing is the old style drive system before the vector drives. It is a 7500 RPM 7.5 HP brushed spindle. As I undersatnd it... the motor controller is the big white box in the control on the back. Not inside the spindle at all. The part Haas want to replace is the Freqrol A200 FR-A220-5.5K for $3999.95 uninstalled. I have found this for as low as $200 for a used one but Haas says if has to be from them or it wont work. Not sure if thats right or not? Any insite on thing is much appreciated.

[Donkey Hotey]

Well, that narrows it down. It sounds like you have the Mitsubishi drive, you know what it costs to replace and it sounds like your HFO has already confirmed that by giving you the quote.

It also sounds like you're not really comfortable tearing apart that spindle drive. I have no idea exactly what you'll find inside that thing so you'll either be on your own to diagnose the internals or you'll have to buy another one.

I'd bet that the reason the other drives won't work is that Haas may have ordered custom control boards for their production machines. The logic board could be different but the rest of the internals are likely the same.

You might search the web for Mitsubishi VFD repairs. I'm sure somebody repairs them.

[DaOne]

Well, that narrows it down. It sounds like you have the Mitsubishi drive, you know what it costs to replace and it sounds like your HFO has already confirmed that by giving you the quote.

It also sounds like you're not really comfortable tearing apart that spindle drive. I have no idea exactly what you'll find inside that thing so you'll either be on your own to diagnose the internals or you'll have to buy another one.

I'd bet that the reason the other drives won't work is that Haas may have ordered custom control boards for their production machines. The logic board could be different but the rest of the internals are likely the same.

You might search the web for Mitsubishi VFD repairs. I'm sure somebody repairs them.

Yes it is a Mitsubishi drive. Yeah Haas also kindly informed me that if I send it out to be repaired that it would be most likely wiped and would not work. I have a very hard time believing this. I am going to tear it open and look for bad capacitors, mosfets etc. without a schematic it will be very hard to make heads or tails of whats wrong. At this point I don't have allot to loose. Our shop does not have the $ at this time to spend $4000 on a controller. There are many places that repair them for about half the cost. I will be calling them Monday morning with hi hopes that Haas is BSing me hoping I would take out a second mortgage on my home to pay for parts for this thing. Like i say I am great with electronics but since I have never been inside one of these I have no idea what to expect.

Here is where I think i will be buying a referb one from...

http://www.plccenter.com/buy/MITSUBISHI/FRA22055K

Anyone have any experience with this company?

[Donkey Hotey]

I don't know exactly how those things work but I would not just buy one from a company and hope that it works. Haas has already told you that there are differences. At very least, I'd guess you would/could:

• Buy another one that works, take it and yours apart and swap your control / logic board portions over to the other unit's high-current chassis.
• Send your unit to one of those places to be repaired.
• Buy another known working unit as spares and then do the troubleshooting / swapping of parts on your own.

What I'm particularly worried about is how much motor tuning gets done inside that control. The older machines may have done all of their acceleration constants and other motor factors in the drive. If you get it wrong, you may not be able to tap, might get alarms or? I downloaded one manual I found on the web and it didn't include the connections for the regenerative braking.

I found this drive on eBay. The basic model number looks the same. No idea if it's really the same or not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mitsubishi-Freqr...mZ270346492895

[DaOne]

That's kinda what I figured I might be doing is buying another and swapping the digital controls so setting stay the same. I also wont be buying anything without getting a good feeling that they know what they are talking about and if they say its a drop in replacement I will get it in writing first. You wouldn't mind giving me a link or sending me that manual you found would ya? At this point every little bit helps.

[DaOne]

Found it myself. Looks like the full version.

http://www.meau.com/Files/IB_NA_66430-B.PDF