[SirDenisNayland]

This isn't so much a question, more or less a commentary on a recent situation I came across, and I figure we could use a little banter amongst ourselves.

I came across a semi-local company who just acquired a citizen lathe, looking for help with a "turn key" set up, described as a very simple part with an od thread, a bore, and a few crossholes that "shouldnt take an experienced swiss machinist more than an hour to set up", a job that could lead to more complex and interesting parts.

So I think great, and I message the company despite the fact the ad is over a month old and I am sure someone has already filled the position. I get an email with an attached drawing, and this is where the fun begins. We're talking a 2.5" part, two sections of M12 thread, one 1.7" long and the other .5" at each end of the part. There is a section between threads with 6 to 8 .12" crossholes into a bore through a .04" wall thickness. They call out the entire I'D to be bored, which is a little over .35" 1" deep, and then .236" for the rest of the length, to a bottom depth .03" +/-.0005 from the end of the part cutoff side. Oh and its 316SS.

One hour? I realize these machines are great, but the fact is this part can only be done on a single head and the fact nearly the entire OD comprises of a theaad, plus the crossholes wall thickness, makes it a pretty tricky part.. not to mention its pretty much impossible to bore .236 to a depth of well over 2 inches, to a flat blind bottom, with an insane tolerance.. its a shop that's supposedly been in business over 20 years...

I told them how difficult the part would actually be and quoted them my rates, saying it would take a day minimum to have a solid working set up where they would only need to adjust offsets. The machine is used and I have no clue its condition or what tooling they have available, I'm guessing none since its their only swiss so I said I would come and do an assessment and create a parts and tool lists for a nominal fee and then we could go forward from there.

I've not heard anything back. Supposedly this is a small prototype run leading to 10k batch orders, and they need to get it running ASAP. Now either I don't know what I am doing or they are smoking crack and shooting themselves in the foot. I certainly don't come cheap, but they could have their parts running by Monday morning. By the sounds of things it seems no one wants to touch the job, or they feel it really will only take an hour and don't want to spend the money to pay someone for a full days rate.

I actually really want to tackle the job, and I know they will love the end product, but I know based on the material and the aspects and dims of the part that its not going to be anywhere near as simple as plug in a program, tools, and hit go, when is it ever?

Heck.. just to change out all the collets, clean everything proper, and then reset all the pressures etc can take a friggin hour!

/rant

[txcncman]

You should have quoted the 1 hour - at $1250.00 per hour.

Now, walk away. Just slowly walk away.

[SirDenisNayland]

I'm thinking that's probably the best idea lol.

God only knows what nightmare condition the machine is in. There's no word whether its even running and set up correctly, I would have to assume not, because if the job was that big a deal SURELY someone who runs a conventional lathe there could have figured it out..

I still cannot get over the 1hour setup print to part, and the "very simple part with more complex to come" comments... I guess looking at the part it seems simple, and someone who doesn't know how the guide bushing complicates things could think its simple.. but they're machinists too, and 316 is the *****ier sister of 304 who is already a ***** herself!

For the record I quoted $100 for the assement which includes a 125km round trip and then $50/h 8 hour minimum for the actual set up.

I really don't think that's all too outrageous, and judging by your $1250 comment I don't think you would either, would you?

Then again they probably quoted ten cents a piece and bought a ten year old citizen with a million hours on it for 10k lol.

[txcncman]

Oh, and get payment in advance.

[underthetire]

50 an hour? For Swiss? Try triple or more! 50 is what a decent Swiss guy can make in a normal shop with benefits, and they obviously don't have that guy on staff!

[ProProcess]

... 50 is what a decent Swiss guy can make in a normal shop with benefits...

Really?
Where do you live?

...Now, walk away. Just slowly walk away...

Oh, and get payment in advance.

Both great pieces of advice!

... or they are smoking crack ...

This is for certain!

[SirDenisNayland]

Really? Where do you live?

This I would love to know as well!

[underthetire]

SF Bay Area.

[MCImes]

A lot of people that have never run swiss assume they can do anything, which is true...but proving out a process with something like that would easily take a full day. And thats if you had all the right tools and the machine was in decent condition. If they bought it used I bet you'd spend an hour just centering the gang and ID tools if its anything like the "good condition" machine ive inherited.

As you said you'd spend another hour just tearing down, cleaning then putting collets and tools back in. No way I'd trust someone else's setup if they already seem in over their heads. Ill also put a x2 that they probably quoted it for $1.18 per part if they expect setup to take an hour.

Ive looked at craigslist in the bay area for swiss jobs just kinda dreaming about moving out there and Ive seen some for $30-45 fairly consistently but a shack of a house is $300k, so its not as sweet as it sounds if you factor in cost of living. Here in MN its more like $14-16 for low level operators, $18-21 for setup, $25-30+ for programmers depending on complexity and experience.

Couple question for you (or anyone in the bay area):

-What brand of machines do see a lot of out there? (here in MN ive seen 40% citizen 20% nexturn/hanwah 20% tsugami 20% star and a tiny ammount of Tornos/Nomura/Maier)

-What type of work do you see primarily? military/aerospace? medical? general jobshop work?

-Any tips for experience to get if I want to move out there in a couple-few years?

Back to your OP: they're kidding themselves. Thats why its been up for a month.

[underthetire]

Not a whole lot of swiss really.. most I see is Citizen, with some Stars sprinkled about and a couple Tsugamis here and there. I've seen everything but automotive here. Seems like a lot of the Swiss machines are running medical that i've seen.

House prices vary drastically depending on how far from the major cities (san jose, SF) and if its a upscale area (los gatos, Pleasanton, etc.). 300K will buy you the worst house in the worst part of town in most of the central bay area. If you go out to FAR east bay ( Brentwood, some of Discovery Bay, etc) you can find a nice house. Further east (tracy, Manteca, etc) house prices start to come down quite a bit, but now you have quite a commute.

[maximusek]

50 an hour? For Swiss? Try triple or more! 50 is what a decent Swiss guy can make in a normal shop with benefits, and they obviously don't have that guy on staff!

thx underthetire, I'm going to talk to my manager about money and I think I will show him your post :cheers:

[Mountain_Hiker]

Don't cut them any slack if you get on the job. They need to understand what they're dealing with. The "hour" situation you refer to reminds me how companies and managers will place some false expectation in your mind and hope you go with it. I had a manager once tell me that changing the collets out would take "5 mins," as though it were a simple quick task. Of course I don't do the mind games. I know if that's what they think, then it's a place I don't need to be at because if that's what they think, then you won't get paid much attention yourself for your actual true efforts. They don't value your hard work if they don't realize the amount you're actually doing, which leads to decreased opporunity for growing in a company and less wages too.

I've been dealing with Swiss cnc for probably 2.5 yrs. now, and I'm not even above $20/hr wage at the current time, and at the place I'm at, I am their only Citizen guy, I do the programs, set it up, and operate. I don't think even a really good cnc swiss guy would probably just hit that $20 mark around here is my guess from what I've seen and gathered of details of the industry. I'm doing mostly simpler stuff, and have hardly done many complex jobs, just a few. I want to eventually work towards getting some of my own machines, so right now I have to rack up the knowledge about them first, because the guide bushing and tool placement, etc. can really complicate things.

[dertsap]

1 hour thinking has equaled to over one month of down time ? Anyone who is employed and in their right mind isn't going anywhere for a 1 hour wage .
they have to make it worth a guys time , otherwise let em go under !! This ain't third world



.

[txcncman]

Don't cut them any slack if you get on the job. They need to understand what they're dealing with. The "hour" situation you refer to reminds me how companies and managers will place some false expectation in your mind and hope you go with it. I had a manager once tell me that changing the collets out would take "5 mins," as though it were a simple quick task. Of course I don't do the mind games. I know if that's what they think, then it's a place I don't need to be at because if that's what they think, then you won't get paid much attention yourself for your actual true efforts. They don't value your hard work if they don't realize the amount you're actually doing, which leads to decreased opporunity for growing in a company and less wages too.

I've been dealing with Swiss cnc for probably 2.5 yrs. now, and I'm not even above $20/hr wage at the current time, and at the place I'm at, I am their only Citizen guy, I do the programs, set it up, and operate. I don't think even a really good cnc swiss guy would probably just hit that $20 mark around here is my guess from what I've seen and gathered of details of the industry. I'm doing mostly simpler stuff, and have hardly done many complex jobs, just a few. I want to eventually work towards getting some of my own machines, so right now I have to rack up the knowledge about them first, because the guide bushing and tool placement, etc. can really complicate things.

LOL. This reminds me of several management types that have tried to ride me about how quickly work was being completed. They would say this or that would go faster if you... That is when I would turn to them and say, "Show me how." 100% of the time they would shut up.

[SirDenisNayland]

LOL. This reminds me of several management types that have tried to ride me about how quickly work was being completed. They would say this or that would go faster if you... That is when I would turn to them and say, "Show me how." 100% of the time they would shut up.

Guys in my shop can't pull that on me. I spent my fair share of days plugging machines and I know what's possible. I'll pull out the stopwatch now and then too.Actually been somewhat riding a guys ass on a job we've been running for years and years now. I don't directly tell them they're slow and it should take this or that long, I just drop little hints now and then. I figure if i made 300ppd whole occasionally checking parts on a few other machines, then they should be able to hit that mark easily just operating that machine. I drop the hints, share little tricks I learned to increase my turnover rates, how to properly blow off a table without taking an hour, making my process of loading and unloading as fast as possible etc. I would never attempt to demean someone by saying something should take an unrealistic amount of time and that they're doing it all wrong etc.. i just like to see some drive and ambition in their work, even if it is plugging machines, or sweeping a floor in the downtime. Guys always want to do more "fun" work, and I say to them "if you cant sweep my floor properly, what makes you think I'm going to let you touch my machines?"

Shrug.

[SirDenisNayland]

Oh and they didn't even respond. I actually sent a follow up email and still recieved nothing. I see the ad still up on the internet, LOL.

*shakes head*

[Mountain_Hiker]

I was wondering if us guys that do these swiss cnc machines will likely be more of an asset as the economy declines. I feel we are on a false increase, but I was thinking our manufacturing and these swiss cnc will be better to know than a conventional cnc mill or lathe when we continue to get lower.

[DCogswell]

50 an hour? For Swiss? Try triple or more! 50 is what a decent Swiss guy can make in a normal shop with benefits, and they obviously don't have that guy on staff!

+1