[skullworks]

(wrong) This topic doesn't fit anywhere else, so here it is.

I now have 25 years in the trade.

The machinist trade and manufacturing in general is dying off in this country. Sure there are a few locations that have seen a spurt of growth, but overall we are heading towards being a lost art.

There are a ton of factors that have led up to this point. And while we could argue over the finer points as to what contributed more to our demise we need to look at what is going on NOW, not mulling over history.

• The EPA needs to be shaken up such that it is more like the commerce dept than an adversarial .gov entity. They need to actively work with industry to promote cost effective processes that both work for industy and keep the tree huggers happy.
• I won't blame unions now, the damage they did is in the past and we are living with the fallout that doesn't have a halflife. Unions have there place. I just hope that in there goal to get a good deal for there members they don't negotiate us all out of our jobs.
• Fresh blood. The skills we have learned must be past on. There is little interest in our trade, it isn't considered a growth area or a stable one at that.
  • The local Junior college dropped its machine shop program for lack of enrollment. Many of the engineering courses have likewise been dropped or scaled back so that a given course may only be offered once per year.
• Trade Shows - My first large scale exposure to machinery was when my uncle took me to WESTEC at the Los Angeles Convention Center when I was 14... Now they have it posted - No one under 18 admitted. OK, I understand the promoters are under the thumb of the insurance underwriters and there liability lawyers... But this is killing us.
  
  I think that as part of each show they need to have a morning reserved for school tours, Get the high and jr high kids in there for a guided tour. True this isn't going to be a sales opertunity but you may be grooming your customers for ten years down the line.
  
• Slap down the bean counters and adopt the long view. Quit obsessing over quarterly stats and stock values and worry about if your company will still be here in five years, or twentyfive.
• Overhaul the U.S. Tax structure on corporate or business assets.
  • The company I work for is partly owned by BofA. And as such the clueless in the real world bean counters dictate much of the policy. One cell I work in has Okuma lathes from 1982. These machine have been run 24/7 for the last 15 years. They won't replace them because they would have to depreciate them over a min 5 years, but they will drop half the cost of a new machine to repair them without thought because it can be completely written off now as maintainence/repair.
    Thats just wrong!
• As much as I hate taxes and tarifs I think that the .gov needs to seriously address the issues of outsourcing outside the U.S. This applies to design and manufacturing as well as all the other domestic jobs which have departed this country.

When its so easy to email a concept offshore, get a quote in 24hrs and have FedX drop it on your dock in 30 days from asia... We have a uphill battle on our hands.

What say you?

[Newby2]

I started out tearing dad's lawnmower apart, and he was madder than h@##.
But I put it back together and it ran!
Later on, my last 2 years of high school, I spent 2 hours a day as student instructor of the machine shop. I was amazed then at what could be done with the right machine. Dad was a machinist then and is now retired.
Now, retired after 20 years in the military, I am working as a CNC lathe machinist and am still amazed with what these machines can do.
Yes, the machinist trade is becoming a dying one, partly due to the upbringing of the kids, they are no longer interested in what DAD did for a living, but would rather play sports or computer games. They are not exposed to the wonders of what it takes to make an automated line run with robots that spin and whirl around to precise locations.
I worked in a mold shop where the programmers sat on one side of the wall while the CNC machines were on the other side. They didn't have any practical knowledge of the tools they were calling out, everything was out of a book .
At my current job, there is one young guy that I see has the interest and the knowledge to become an excellant machinist. I believe this is the first job he has had where he is exposed to more than a button pusher. And so I have been giving him all the knowledge that I can. He started out as a button pusher, and 7 months later, he has learned to write his own programs for some very prominent companies.
My opinion of unions is negative. Where are they now when all of the companies are sending their jobs overseas? I will never belong to one.
And finally, when was the Constitution ammended from "Government by the people, for the people" to "Government by business for business"
This is my opinion only
Steve

[pntbllrsprky]

I guess I am lucky to have a machine shop still at school, with enough people to continue the class.

I also blame the school. My school is dropping junior high shop class because it isn't part of the IBO (ibo.org) track.

I wish I could take more classes in machining, but my highschool doesn't offer them, nor does the local colleges (until I graduate atleast).

[skullworks]

Back in the late 70's My HS started phasing out "Print shop" and "Auto shop".

There was a section of the auto shop that had welding booths... but that was dropped even earlier. ( so old that they still had the Calcium carbide acetylene generator, but it was not in use, they had switched over to regular cylinders on the manifold.)

( Side note: I'm going back 1st week of May for the 100yr anniversery homecoming. )

Insurance costs is the #1 factor why these classes have been abandoned at the High School level.

See if a 19 yr old College student gets his hand mangled in a machine he was stupid for reaching in while the machine was running... If a 17 yr old gets hurt on a machine - the school administration was stupid for allowing the student access to "Dangerous Equipment". ( And the lawyers circle like sharks at a feeding frenzy.)

[Newby2]

Think about all of the sports programs the schools have now. In my day, there was only basketball and football. Now there is those plus tennis, snow skiing, golf, volleyball, soccer, squash, and probably others. There is no liability in these?
How many jobs do these teach the school age kids for? Most of them Start out flipping burgers or boiling french fries! And then they get a credit card, a vehicle of some sort and wind up getting themselves in trouble.
Steve

[Caprirs]

I don't know if the trade is shrinking or just not keeping pace with the growth of the population. One guy with a few CNCs is now worth more than several journeyman machinists in most production environments.

I think there is a ever widening gap between what those schools teach and the real world. The schools stick to the same thing they've taught for generations. Yet, over time, the machines change, the tooling changes, and many of the ancillary equipment changes. How many schools are teaching people how to use the lastest CAD/CAM and CMMs? How many are teaching NURBs? With modern tooling, a lot of the speed/feed info no longer is applicable but the schools will keep teaching the same old info.

I think Skullworks is right about the tradeshows. That's where the :banana: appears in young people. Show a young person a Makino or Niigata HMC cranking out engine blocks every 20 minutes and you'll have their attention. If the US wants to have a competitive advantage over foreign sources, then we have to train our next generation of machinist to do the modern stuff, not what Grandpa did 50 years ago.

Who in this country would want to go to school for years to learn how to crank handles on a Bridgeport hoping to make a career out of that for the rest of his life? There won't be many applicants for that because there won't be many positions to fill like that in the future. Some, but not armies of people.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Those episodes of handle cranking, work material & cutter speeds,feeds etc. are called "basics". Add to that computer literacy. Combine those with intelligent (CAD/CAM) instruction and you have an inexperienced "machinist". IF the "machinist" survives a number of years of relevant experience and becomes proficient, he has been educated to at least a typical B/S degree. He/she should be compensated at that level. A real MACHINIST should IMHO be payed the same as a BSME first year graduate. If the "machinist" has spent the last 4 years pushing buttons on a CNC machine he/she did not program and was put into operation by a "set-up man" the "machinist" is not a MACHINIST but is a CNC machine OPERATOR. Such a person may be qualified to operate more than 1 type of machine, but that is still a multi machine operator, not a machinist. CNC Operators do not (again, IMHO) deserve to be payed as a MACHINIST. My rant for now.

[joecnc1234]

I believe technology is the oxymoron of this conversation. technology advanced so fast kids don't want to run machines they want something exciting or easy, they want video games or high paying jobs so they can buy the latest video games. They watch these rich people on TV everyday with their $300,000 cars and thats what they think is the American way. Why should they have to work for it, get dirty or do something so demeaning as machining. My dad was a machinist, I remember going to his work to take him lunch he was on night shift, when I saw that NC lathe making its own parts I thought "wow that is cool I would like to learn how to do that". Now I take my stepson to my shop that I own and he says "can I get on the INTERNET" no interest whatsoever and we make some pretty cool parts and enough money to buy him his ps3. When I was a kid I rebuilt my dirt bike top end, my vw engine and built a quality sand rail barely played video games. But technology has gotten so good video games are these kids life played out on TV. How do we win we love technology for our machines and software but not for the kids. I can't figure out how to show these kids the benefit and enjoyment you feel from making something of value. I wish the high schools understood the value of trades in the real world. I guarantee I can get a machining job anywhere in the world today. Just my rant Joe

[Caprirs]

The "basics" no longer apply a lot of the time. Aluminum is now machined at 10,000+sfpm and run dry. Stock removal rates in hardened tool steels can exceed what was once done in cold rolled steel. HMCs and VMCs are the norm and 5 axis machines are becoming common. Rapid prototyping can accomplish in hours what a skilled machinist could do in weeks. Video inspection machines can verify part accuracy in seconds instead of minutes. The world of manufacturing has changed.

The schools must shift their training to match the needs of modern industry. Teaching kids to crank handles is like trying to get them to rebuild carburetors or repair televisions. There will be some mild curiousity and there are some lessons to be learned at the entry level, but they cannot make much of a living by cranking handles on mills, rebuilding carburetors, or repairing televisions these days. Admittedly, there are people who make excellent livings rebuilding carbs and cranking handles, but they are the exception and their future is not hopeful.

The world has changed but the schools have not kept pace. This is a disservice to the kids who need the training and education and enter the schools in hopes landing a fine career in life. For example, the schools that are training the current crop of automotive techs pay little attention to carburetors, points, coil dwell, etc. because not one of the graduates can expect a future in those aspects of automotive repair. The pay scale for modern auto techs reflects their skill sets. The same should be true of machining schools.

Take two students. Teach one how to repair carbureted cars and teach the other how to repair fuel injected cars. Both will have to learn how to:
- use hand and power tools
- understand how an internal combustion engine functions and diagnose which component has failed
- understand emissions testing
- understand automotive electricals
- understand air conditioning systems
- understand transmissions
- understand brakes
At the end of the training, which is going to be more competitive in the current job market?

Further, the modern US machinist will not be wage competitive with overseas machinists if both labor forces have the same skill sets. The US machinist must strive to be better than his overseas counterparts by a factor equal to the wage difference. Right now, there are CNC machines being installed overseas and young people being trained to use them. How will the US maintain it's competitive advantage by training our young people to crank handles for years?

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

The same "basics" apply now as they did 150 years ago. The relative numerical values may change but the basics are the same. The original SIP "dividing" machines used to make scales were optical (video) devices. These same measuring machines found the International Meter rods in Paris were wrong and made corrected replacements in the late 1800's. High carbon steel cutting tool cut steel at 35 sfpm. Change the numerical value to that of todays material and the "basics" are the same. What bothers me is moving the skill requirements from the real MACHINIST to some satellite office and turning a machinists job into a button pusher/part changer. Becuase our education system has decided we don't need skilled people, people like myself are putting our education/experience into a computer for the undereducated/inexperienced to use. Eventually that winds down and you better be invested in foreign industry like has happened in other countries. Todays rant.

[skullworks]

After getting laid off from my job as a tool and die maker I ended up taking a production job...

Before that I was a tool and fixture designer, CNC programmer and setup / inspector.

Insert part, press start... repeat.

It was that or relocate.

[Caprirs]

I'm certainly not trying to demean your experience or skill level, but even the fastest typewriters in the world eventually become obsolete. It's just an analogy, but I'm trying to draw a parallel. There's more to it of course. There are many nuances of being a machinist that cannot be programmed into software to make them pushbutton easy.

However, the existence of this forum shows further how much the world has changed. Fifteen years ago, if a shop was learning to cut Titanium for the first time, they'd have a steep learning curve ahead. Now, an enormous amount of info is available 24/7 with interactive advice via forums and phone tech support. The Chinese, Brazilians, Indonesians, and everyone else in the world can read these forums and get questions answered almost instantly.

The US cannot remain stagnant in it's skill levels and hope to coast into the future. Innovation and advancement are the only ways to not just survive, but to prosper. This is the American way in all industries; lead, not simply match the pace of others.

Virtually no one will have a job for life as they did generations ago. We must plan on changing jobs in the future because constant change is the one thing we can count on.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

It's got nothing to do with me. What's got me PO'd is the removal of the EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY to learn the basics of the skilled trades. They still teach the Pythagoras theory in math classes don,t they? Has that not been replaced by a pocket calculator? Some of the basics unknown by many "button pushers" are surface speed is how fast the material is moving by the tool tip or vice versa. RPM is the rotational speed of a tool or workpiece. How do you actually calculate the above without a slip chart.(Doesn't really matter, it's in the program and I don't have to worry about it because the set-up person will adjust it anyway.)
I personally am near ignorant concerning electronics. My baliwick is mechanical "stuff". But I did design the mechancal "stuff" to which enough electronics/electric stuff were attached to produce an 8-axis simultaneous interpolation gear cutting machine and a few that aren't yet on the market. The people who did the electronics have accomplished IMHO fantastic "stuff" of their own. They also are well grounded (pun intended) in their skill area, electrical basics. How many course are available in basic electrics vs. computer science? I,m not in any way opposed or resistant to progress but don,t forget the basics or progress will not go on. Most people have forgotten that the Egyptions educated the Greeks. Don't lose either the basics or foundations. Todays rant

[Geof]

Reading some of what has been written so far I am reminded of two things:

C. P. Snow's "Two Solitudes", an analysis of the gulf between Arts and Science and how the practitioners of each feels it is superior to the other...but doesn't understand the other. Although here it is the gulf between the Artisan, as embodied in the classical Machinist, and the Applied Scientist in the form of the Engineer.

The second thing is the technique used in cellphone transmission technology, polarisation in different planes to facilitate signal discrimination and prevent crosstalk. I think some polarizers need to be rotated here so that people are transmitting and receiving not only on the same frequency but also on the same polarization plane.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Geof, Isn't it weird? I'm an engineer.

[Geof]

Geof, Isn't it weird? I'm an engineer.

I will not hold that against you .

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Geof, You will not have to, I'm also a journeyman machinist, at least in this state.

[Caprirs]

I too am an engineer. :cheers: BSME from Univ. of Arizona. I've gotten into machining because I can make more money and get better satisfaction at the end of each day. So I now have two VMCs that I'm trying to make a living with. To the general public, I'm a machinist. To machinists, I'm a hack. I don't know much other than I'm willing to try and see what I can learn in the process.

Oddly, I can produce parts faster and cheaper for my customers than their own journeyman machinists. They have better newer VMCs but they keep using their CNC-retrofitted knee mills. The only reason I can discern so far is that they are too stuck in their ways. They will make parts the same way for a decade without trying new methods. I don't know how much of that is personality and how much is attributable to the journeyman training. Any thoughts?

[Geof]

.....The only reason I can discern so far is that they are too stuck in their ways. They will make parts the same way for a decade without trying new methods. I don't know how much of that is personality and how much is attributable to the journeyman training. Any thoughts?

They probably have some old-school engineer as a boss who figures if it was good enough for granpappy its good enough for me .

Stick-in the muddiness is an attribute that transcends education and/or experience.

But isn't the topic under discussion what the future of the trade is, not what some silly old farts don't do to utilise modern advances?

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Careful, I,m one of those old farts and I am not stuck in the mud or the past. There are a lot of people, engineers, machinists, and many others who dislike any change. I don't object to using the calculator to solve a problem. I object to not knowing how to solve the problem when the battery goes dead and you can't replace it. I realize because of "globalization" this discussion may be mute. I,m still going to try to keep progress in the the field of machining.
I'm all out of rants for today. I'm going to take a nap and rest up for getting into bed while you young snots argue.