[daniellyall]

as i said never used it why else do you think I am asking all these questions, and I never said equally capable.

before I jump into something I like to learn about it first you use it so I am questioning you, there are a couple of things I need to do what fusion does not do yet, one being using scanning data and rebuilding it.
and the other being 3D modeling where you can do it to a correct size, you sort of can in fusion but it's a big walk. I make disability products some parts need to be form fitting.

[yohudi]

as i said never used ....

....using scanning data and rebuilding it.

3D modeling where you can do it to a correct size......
I make disability products some parts need to be form fitting.

Hi there,

Best thing I know of for rebuilding point-clouds, which is what I think you mean by 'scanning data', is MeshLab... it's designed for this... and has excellent tools to align multiple scans automatically and so forth....

Re: dimensional accuracy... you can definitely create dimensionally accurate meshes in 3DSMAX or gmax.... I made several of my machine plate components... and things like ball-nut mounting blocks.. and bearing mounts etc... based on 3DSMAX / gmax models....

As I said previously.. cnc_toolkit path shapes are built by the user.. so you need to apply a suitable offset to cut the mechanical parts at appropriate size.... just as Fusion builds into the paths shapes

I should say very clearly... this is not an automatic thing... yet.... it's something I've been doing development on.. so I can automate it in future...

Hope this helps...

Danny

[yohudi]

Hi again...

daniellyall.... I just noticed where you're located....

I did some work a while back that turned out to be for the NZ dept. of Conservation... reproducing a large pre-maori cultural artefact... a dendrograph found on Chatham Island... it was scanned using laser photogrammetry as part of a large scale survey at some point... As far as I'm aware they still have it displayed at the Chatham Island airport...

I did the job with cnc_toolkit.... there's a video of Colin Doughty's 5-Axis machine running the code in NZ... some 3,4 and 5 Axis passes... on his youtube channel.. see below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLz9K9wcHsE

Just thought it might perk your interest... seeing as your from NZ..

TTFN

Danny

[ihavenofish]

Hi there,

It's clear from your comment that like many other CNC users, you have only superficial knowledge of the development path of this branch of Autodesk software....

funny, i was gonna say that same about you :P (im teasing, but you got whole massive swaths of things wrong)

3DS MAX was originally a flagship Discreet logic product. It's brief was and always has been 3D design.. be that for architecture, mechanics, animation, special effects, or game content. As a result of having such a broad brief.. it's imbued with a set of features and functions that, in fact, go way beyond anything available in Fusion... This is one of the reasons for it's high price....

3dsmax is the evolution of 3ds dos, a series of software developed by gary yost for autodesk specifically and sold under the brand name kinetix. "discreet" was a canadian film editing software company which autodesk bought in 1999ish and adesk tried to restructure all "film" software under that name. that lasted like 3 years then the discreet name was tossed in favour of media and entertainment. the original "brief" for 3dsmax was to be an ANIMATION package to level themselves with the likes of alias wavefront's power animator and microsoft's (at that time) softimage, while doing it for 1/3 the price. the architectural stuff came along later on, as did games. the "brief" then became to be able to do everything anyone could want in a 3d package that outputs renders. it was only after autodesk bought out alias (maya) and avid's softimage assets that they began to try and force 3dsmax to be "for game" or "for viz". something the users are always trying to tell adesk to piss off about. but thats another topic

3dsmax has NEVER had any proper cad functionality. it has no constraints, it has minimal useful drawing and dimensioning tools, it handles large drawings very poorly - important for gcode paths in cnctoolkit! it has no useful solid modelling, its nurbs surfaces are some crap they bought in the early 90's and gave up on when everyone else went a different direction. you can BUY a nurbs package for it, which is cool (its actually been partially integrated since max 2011 but only for importing). if you manage a cad model and drawing, it is very much DESPITE the software, not because of it.

gmax was the next iteration of plasma. plasma was max 4, gmax was max 5 (launched late 2002 for those keeping count). its primary purpose was to allow people to make game assets for game modding like quake 3. gmax was 3dsmax with half the functionality (in the form of plugins - almost everything in max is a plugin) deleted.

In the early 90's Discreet were competing with other companys to place 3D Studio MAX as the de facto standard for game content creation

max v1 was in 1995. discreet was not even on adesks radar at that point, 3d games were barely a "thing". think you mean early 2000's

So at this point in time after Discreet were acquired by Autodesk... and 3D Studio MAX became a flagship, high-dollar Autodesk product, gmax is still available for FREE.

no, no, and no. 3dsmax has actually always been the same price (annoyingly) $3750 us. i think straight from 1995 it was that price, and still is (well, up til this year with the new subscription only setup). remember at that time softimage was over $20k and i think power animator was over $10k (maya hadnt been invented yet).

it is important to note that while gmax IS 3dsmax 5 with some functions removed, fusion 360 is not related, or similar in any way shape or form, either outwardly or inwardly. virtually not one modelling feature has a direct parallel in max. tsplines in fusion are NOT at all like those horrid useless bezier patches in 3dsmax. they are more akin to the HSDS modifier but 100 times more advanced as they are properly parametric and not iterative. thats why a t spline can be booleaned, and virtually nothing in max can successfully

As I stated in an earlier post... cnc_toolkit is not HSM.. you need to learn how to design and build appropriate path shapes using 3D Studio MAX style functions.... some people struggle with this.... and this is what Fusion is all about.... Unfortunately 'almost' does not run a CNC machine. I want to be able to design, program and run simultaneous 5-axis.. in all configurations... not dream about it.... therefore I cannot 'just move on and do stuff with Fusion'.

toolkit is cool, but its usefulness is severely limited in all of its abilities, including 5 axis. you are basically making the case that a barely running ford pinto will get you across the country just as well as an airbus a380... and the airbus is offering FREE first class tickets and hotel accommodation!

anyhow, carry on

[daniellyall]

thanks ihavenofish that is the info I needed, I will hold off to what I needed is in fusion

[yohudi]

Hi there,

funny, i was gonna say that same about you :P (im teasing, but you got whole massive swaths of things wrong)....... 3dsmax is the evolution of 3ds dos, a series of software developed by gary yost for autodesk specifically .....sold under the brand name kinetix. "discreet".....

As an Original 3DS DOS 1.0 user I was / am aware of the "YOST group" (I think that was what they called it) phase in it's development.... and this was initially for Autodesk.... To keep things simple... I commented only on developments around the windows based versions of 3D Studio MAX... and mostly from my experience of living through that development..... so there may well be some date / time slippage.... life in memory is like that....

In terms of origins I believe 3DS DOS sprang out of the fact that Autodesk Animator was one of then leading 2D Animation packages.. At the time, 3D animation and rendering was mostly performed on high-end, high-cost workstation level hardware. Autodesk had AutoCAD DOS running on PC hardware by then.... so by leveraging Autodesk CAD and Autodesk Animator experience / knowledge / assets, the YOST Group developed the PC based 3DS DOS... I saw a member of the YOST team explaining this, in a film called 'In the minds eye'.... about the development/future of 3D animation.

3dsmax has NEVER had any proper cad functionality. it has no constraints, it has minimal useful drawing and dimensioning tools.....

I never said 3dsmax was a fully fledged CAD software.. and also pointed out that CAD Drawings were not one of it's features.... However, it was designed to work with architectural CAD, from AutoCAD, from day one.... at least that's what the manual says.... 3dsmax /gmax retains sufficient CAD functionality, to meet the needs of the 'hobbyist' CNC user..... I think my FREE ebook.... and it's accompanying example files will demonstrate this quite clearly....

gmax was the next iteration of plasma. plasma was max 4, gmax was max 5 ...... its primary purpose was to allow people to make game assets for game modding..... half the functionality (in the form of plugins - almost everything in max is a plugin) deleted.

You'll notice I said "(circa 3dsmax V4)".... i.e around... so after all this time... off the top of my head.. if you say 3dsmax V5... I wouldn't argue with you...... I acknowledged it's stated purpose was game modding..... but it's by no means restricted to this.... Even if you are right and 'half the functionality...... was deleted' (which I don't actually accept)...... sufficient functionality remains so that as of now... I have performed and evidenced 5-axis CNC work, that you cannot currently perform with Fusion 360 (Standard or Ultimate)..... or is this not the case ??

Think you mean early 2000's

quite probably I do......

3dsmax has actually always been the same price (annoyingly) $3750 us

Didn't say it became high dollar item AT this time.... said it WAS a high dollar item at this time... was always expensive......

it is important to note that while gmax IS 3dsmax 5 ....... virtually nothing in max can successfully....

I have to disagree with you... and I believe I've easily demonstrated, (for at least half of my decade on the forum) the level of success that can be acheived....

I've used / tested the modelling functions in 3dsmax (all version up to Design MAX 10) / Fusion and gmax.... From a modellers perspective I find ....

1. Objects are all parametric and constructed in much the same manner.... A box is a box, a Sphere is Sphere, a rectangle extrudes to a box.. a circle to a cylinder... etc etc..
2. When designing for 'hobbyist' level CNC carving, they acheive the desired results..... Does the math behind the surface matter... as long as the mesh does it's job in the cuts ??
3. While boolean functions have seen improvement... I have performed booleans successfully as and how CNC modelling work has demanded.... I've never found it to be that much of an issue....

toolkit is cool, but its usefulness is severely limited in all of its abilities, including 5 axis. you are basically making the case that a barely running ford pinto will get you across the country just as well as an airbus a380... and the airbus is offering FREE first class tickets and hotel accommodation!

This is your comparison.. not mine.. and it is quite frankly ridiculous.... Not my fault you construct a ridiculous comparison.. and then suggest it's ridiculous !!! Typical strawman argument tactic IMHO

What I HAVE said is quite simple..... As of today.. right now.... I can perform 5-axis simultaneous toolpath work using gmax and cnc_toolkit... that you cannot perform with Fusion 360 (Standard or Ultimate). I've backed it up with examples of the work... the work's what matters.... Show me similar work performed by Fusion.... and I may change my mind.... until then.. I will restate the gmax / cnc_toolkit can.. today.... perform simultaneous 5-axis work that Fusion cannot... and that it can perform this work for trunnion....

As I want to actually do something... rather than talk about it.... gmax/cnctoolkit is currently the only viable option for simultaneous 5-Axis work... and until such times as Fusion 360 can perform the same work, it cannot logically be called a replacement.

Hope this helps

Danny

[ihavenofish]

1. Objects are all parametric and constructed in much the same manner.... A box is a box, a Sphere is Sphere, a rectangle extrudes to a box.. a circle to a cylinder... etc etc..
2. When designing for 'hobbyist' level CNC carving, they acheive the desired results..... Does the math behind the surface matter... as long as the mesh does it's job in the cuts ??
3. While boolean functions have seen improvement... I have performed booleans successfully as and how CNC modelling work has demanded.... I've never found it to be that much of an issue....

weeeell... no. a box in max is 12 triangles. this distinction is actually extremely important when you get into complex solid geometry and cnc.

point is, cnctoolkit might be free, and might do 5 axis motion, while fusion as yet does not.... but the 5 axis results out of toolkit, and its limited path creation abilities are not really a benefit over 3+2 in fusion with indexing. there are really only a small handful of objects that actually need 4 or 5 axis simultaneous objects, and i do not believe toolkit would be adequate for any of them.

ive used toolkit alot for guitars. with some trouble, you can create simple machined 3d surfaces that are "good enough", but they are never accurate due to the way toolkit offsets the path. most of what ive used toolkit for is pocketing, outlines and explicitly drawn paths.

[yohudi]

Hi again....

weeeell... no. a box in max is 12 triangles. this distinction is actually extremely important when you get into complex solid geometry and cnc.

Depends on what you are using the box for.... if you box model it into something else... then can have untold number of faces... box modelling can be a useful way to make complex geometry without booleans...

When joining or merging geometric forms.. then mesh topology will be important... but when working with cnc_toolkit... joining or merging geometry isn't so important... It's more important to have the correct form in the view, to serve as a target for spline projection and the like... If using a projected toolpath... it's usually sufficient (and a bit faster) to attach multiple geometric entities as a single object... they don't need to merge or join... obfuscated faces are often enough...

If paths are shape based.. i.e extracted shapes... it's often easier to extract the shapes from primitives... then edit/ boolean / offset whatever the shapes... which can then form the paths...

point is, cnctoolkit might be free, and might do 5 axis motion.......i do not believe toolkit would be adequate for any of them.

Think this depends on the object.. and the operator.... experience does help.. these days I think that I could devise a way to do most things I might need to make..

Will admit that this is where Fusion does have an advantage, in that much of the 'work' is completed by updated design tools.. you can avoid some of the shape editing you might have to perform in 3dsmax / gmax.. and HSM has toolpath generation very well automated... However, it's not easy to take this kind of approach forward for simultaneous 5-axis... you need robust pre-built strategies to account for irregular geometry, undercuts and the thing you never ever thought anyone would try to make...

ive used toolkit alot for guitars. with some trouble, you can create simple machined 3d surfaces that are "good enough", but they are never accurate due to the way toolkit offsets the path. most of what ive used toolkit for is pocketing, outlines and explicitly drawn paths.

Having read this I think I understand your main issues..... Projecting toolpaths around a hard outline.. such as you might for a guitar shape, can offset around the edge by the tool stepover amount... or depending on vertex location... your desired edge might fall between 2 vertices.... In both cases, you would need to include a profiling pass to maintain accuracy... You can avoid a lot of hand-work and get accuracy by re-orienting objects, to project a separate sub-divided spline around an object boundary... or by extracting selected edges as a shape... there are so many ways to get shapes......

Hope this helps

Danny

[daniellyall]

well fusion can out do gmax/cnctoolkit with doing guitars, it can do drawin toolpaths at angles many angle changes you can use them as boundaries or the toolpath itself, you can make your jigs at the same time, plus you have HSM.

if you know how to do drawin toolpaths in fusion, I use them all the time.
plus there are some other toolpaths that you can use to do 3D work that are going to be used for the simultaneous when it gets added they have update one already plus another is almost done.

a couple of the toolpaths that are in the 3D side if it's on a 5 axis mill simultaneous is not realy needed as the face to be cut is presented to the spindle, A B/C head on a router is different.

it's a case by case thing with simultaneous it depends on the machine and cut, simultaneous is still at least 2 to 24 months away in fusion

[ger21]

well fusion can out do gmax/cnctoolkit with doing guitars

I don't think that any guitar builders would even contemplate using CNC toolkit.
It's really quite simple.
CNC Toolkit was developed for creating 5 axis toolpaths.
There is no other free or low cost software capable of doing what it does.

[109jb]

[chuckorlando]

It is really hard to brag on "what is going to happen". I love hsmworks way better then camworks, ezcam, bobcad or mastercam, to the extent that I have used them. They have been walking the dog on this issue for a long while. One day they will get there. They really have to as it is holding them back a great deal in the commercial market.

[ihavenofish]

hsmworks has 4 and 5 axis simultaneous. they just put that part into fusion 360.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVhiJfkMB4c

that video i suppose is a peek into what will come to fusion 360 over the next year or 2.

[daniellyall]

that was scott showing off his skills

[chuckorlando]

Yea I did not type that well. I mean F360. As it's like hsm with it's own cad.

[ihavenofish]

as for 4 and 5 axis simultaneous "now"... $2000-$3000(permanent license) for 4 axis is about standard these days for the "entry level" cam systems. visual mill, madcam, onecnc etc are all in that range. 5 axis adds $1-5k on top depending on the package and features.

inventor HSM pro is $3700 a year - about double the cost of fusion 360 ultimate will be and 10 x the cost of the basic fusion 360. featurecam (with no cad) is $7000 A YEAR.
.
i think 5 axis cam is priced the way it is (or rather, noone is too ht to make a cheap version) because they typical true simultaneous 5 axis machine has always been hundreds of thousands of dollars, and weather the cam package is $1000, $5000, $15000, or $1, just isnt important.

[daniellyall]

HSM and fusion are being made the same now as things get updated they get moved across all versions of HSM and Fusion cam, there was HSM and Fusion cam two separate items, what was just daft so they are bringing them to the same coding.

they should just be using the featurecam code but have it still look the same and be just as easy to use as HSM and fusion cam is

[yohudi]

Hi there,

$2000-$3000(permanent license) for 4 axis is about standard ........ 5 axis adds $1-5k on top depending on the package and features.

inventor HSM pro is $3700 a year....... featurecam (with no cad) is $7000 A YEAR.

5 axis cam is priced the way it is because they typical true simultaneous 5 axis machine has always been hundreds of thousands of dollars

I think as things have changed re: the cost of capable, dependable DIY 5-axis hardware..... so the need for more affordable software has increased... costs quoted above are beyond reach of many 'hobbyists' or small self-financed startup. Even in the region of $1200 annual subs is more than some can justify.. if not earning something back.....

I've always had a desire to perform 5-Axis work.. since 2006.. I could never easily layout $$$$'s annually for high-end CAM software, even though I did have the wherewithal to build a machine that could run 5-Axis. However, as a long-term 3dsmax user I'd heard of the option of cnc_toolkit....

It's often said that 3dsmax / gmax / cnc_toolkit can do simultaneous 5-Axis for 'no-cost'... but this isn't strictly true... You need to invest time, effort and persistance to get the result you need. I already had a lot of 3dsmax experience... this made it much easier but still took perseverance.... may not get the right approach initially... but if you stick at it, many things are possible.

I'd always choose learning a new-skill over spending money.... I think in the long-term it serves you much better and expands potential to a greater degree.. It has enabled me to perform work I could never have even attempted without spending $$$$'s.... I understand gmax / cnc_toolkit is not intuitive to many.. and less user-friendly than pay-to-play software... but in the end, IMHO there has always been a worthwhile payoff.

Hope this helps

Danny

[daniellyall]

it all depends on the needs and machine now, as what is shown above
if you can present the face to the spindle you can cut it without using true simultaneous 5 axis, but if parts are behind other parts and you can't present the face to the spindle you can't do it unless it's simultaneous.

[LongRat]

Hi there,



I think as things have changed re: the cost of capable, dependable DIY 5-axis hardware..... so the need for more affordable software has increased... costs quoted above are beyond reach of many 'hobbyists' or small self-financed startup. Even in the region of $1200 annual subs is more than some can justify.. if not earning something back.....

I've always had a desire to perform 5-Axis work.. since 2006.. I could never easily layout $$$$'s annually for high-end CAM software, even though I did have the wherewithal to build a machine that could run 5-Axis. However, as a long-term 3dsmax user I'd heard of the option of cnc_toolkit....

It's often said that 3dsmax / gmax / cnc_toolkit can do simultaneous 5-Axis for 'no-cost'... but this isn't strictly true... You need to invest time, effort and persistance to get the result you need. I already had a lot of 3dsmax experience... this made it much easier but still took perseverance.... may not get the right approach initially... but if you stick at it, many things are possible.

I'd always choose learning a new-skill over spending money.... I think in the long-term it serves you much better and expands potential to a greater degree.. It has enabled me to perform work I could never have even attempted without spending $$$$'s.... I understand gmax / cnc_toolkit is not intuitive to many.. and less user-friendly than pay-to-play software... but in the end, IMHO there has always been a worthwhile payoff.

Hope this helps

Danny

That's a well articulated comment. Interesting discussion going on here.