[LeeWay]

To be fair, the OP was discussing both a Tormach computer system and another system with similar issues. I don't own a Tormach machine, but do use the tool holders. Just ordered another today.
What I take from this thread is that you have to do your due diligence in order to trouble shoot issues that may arise, whether it is a safety, economic or just a pesky situation. Don't just blame Mach 3 for the issues. You may wind up there, but at least then you will know where to research a remedy.
On my router for a time with the R40 laptop, my router would start bumping on and off during start up of the computer. It runs under Mach control but only after Mach 3 takes over. Not while the computer is booting. Now this is where a charge pump would really help if the BOB is so equipped. Mine wasn't, so I started trouble shooting.

Everything in the control panel was running on the same surge protector including the router. The fix, short of a new BOB, was simply to plug the router into a different circuit nearby. This has fixed that issue, so it was apparently a noise issue. I will say that I do plan on the new BOB though. I am planning on the complete control cabinet rebuild that will take it from the original hobby setup to a pro level control cabinet.

Tormach obviously gets these computers designed for them or at least tests them before including in a package. Same with Novakon.
For anyone with any computer running cnc or not, I will recommend using an SSD. I have upgraded my desktop and my Torus came with one already, but boots are maybe 30 seconds. A bit faster on the Torus, because it only has Mach 3 installed.

[waltpermenter]

Funny but this is a quote from our favorite non tormach owner just a few weeks ago on his forum.

Mach3 works fine for many people. Most only rarely have a problem. Some never do. Others (I was one of these....) have frequent problems with it. It is trying to be a real-time application running on a VERY non-real-time operating system. As a result, its performance is very much dependent on the configuration and characteristics of the specific PC on which is it running, and the hardware it is controlling. Some configurations work well, some very poorly.

Regards,
Ray L.

kinda different than what he claims here about the tormach version he has no experience with.

[Don Clement]

Really happened, more than once, on more than one machine. Many similar reports on the ArtSoft forum over the years. Dumped Mach3, switched to KFlop with NO other changes, and have not had one single problem in almost two years.

Regards,
Ray L.

Ray,

Since you don't own and haven't owned a Tormach , the machines you mention weren't Tormach. As I have said I have had a Tormach for five years running Mach III and have not experienced a spindle running up uncommanded. How can Tormach running Mach III be to blame for your alleged issues with other non-Tormach machines? I don't understand why you continually repeat issues of non-Tormach machines on a Tormach specific forum.

Don

[Moggot]

Really happened, more than once, on more than one machine. Many similar reports on the ArtSoft forum over the years. Dumped Mach3, switched to KFlop with NO other changes, and have not had one single problem in almost two years.

Regards,
Ray L.

For clarities sake: did you ever have this issue with a Tormach machine?

[bobeson]

Wow, this discussion sheds a lot of light on individual personalities here.

I am a Tormach PCNC1100 Series II owner, bought new right when the Series II was released, and have done a lot of work cutting mostly steel but also aluminum and wood. I have experienced quite a few significant problems that were clearly established to be caused by flaws in Mach. This is using a control computer bought from and configured by Tormach, and using their outstanding tech support to establish root-cause in several instances. By "significant problems" I mean things like the spindle plowing into the table unprogrammed, with no offset errors or other human-influenced issues, just "random" motion plunges, out of control. Ultimately, this was traced to a fault caused by interaction between Mach and the sound card driver for the machine, despite it working fine for years previously, and with no other software installed to blame. It just cropped up one day, and stuck around until I re-installed the OS, Mach, and disabled the sound system entirely (I had no speakers, so didn't need/use it anyhow). I got lucky to find a repeatable test case that let me easily reproduce the problem, and other people to not reproduce the problem, etc.

I have heard many, many other Tormach owners complaining of Mach bugs and problems caused by Mach in general. The bit-banged parallel port control system is just trouble waiting to happen, and it does, frequently. The fact that any particular indivuduals may not have experienced Mach bugs, or realized they have experienced them, does not take away from the basic truth that Mach3 bit-banging over a parallel port is just bad news, as experienced and testified to by many, many Tormach owners over the years. Just go back and re-read some relevant threads with an open mind if you doubt this. I know I've posted about problems multiple times.

I haven't been using my mill much this year, unfortunately, but hopefully that will be changing, thanks to new projects and with new enthusiasm from my recent acquisition of a Dynomotion KFlop/KAnalog combo that I plan to use to replace the existing machine control board. When I find some linear scales at a good price I'm also going to be installing them and closing the positioning loop with the steppers and KFlop. At some point I'm looking forward to ditching my spring-loaded power drawbar setup and switching to a gear-reduction approach with a threaded rigid drawbar, like Ray has taken with his designs. I may combine this with an oversized servo spindle and possibly some kind of automatic switching mechanism for high/low gear and spindle-lock/drawbar turn functions, but I haven't figured out those details enough yet.

In any case, there is no question that Mach has problems, and many Tormach owners have experienced these problems. I don't know why you want to continue denying this plain truth; it seems as though your brand loyalty compels it perhaps? But why? Tormach is doing just fine, and we are doing them a better service to speak the plain truth about their products than to talk nonsense like denying the existence of Mach problems on Tormach machines. That's just absurd.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Wow, this discussion sheds a lot of light on individual personalities here.

I am a Tormach PCNC1100 Series II owner, bought new right when the Series II was released, and have done a lot of work cutting mostly steel but also aluminum and wood. I have experienced quite a few significant problems that were clearly established to be caused by flaws in Mach. This is using a control computer bought from and configured by Tormach, and using their outstanding tech support to establish root-cause in several instances. By "significant problems" I mean things like the spindle plowing into the table unprogrammed, with no offset errors or other human-influenced issues, just "random" motion plunges, out of control. Ultimately, this was traced to a fault caused by interaction between Mach and the sound card driver for the machine, despite it working fine for years previously, and with no other software installed to blame. It just cropped up one day, and stuck around until I re-installed the OS, Mach, and disabled the sound system entirely (I had no speakers, so didn't need/use it anyhow). I got lucky to find a repeatable test case that let me easily reproduce the problem, and other people to not reproduce the problem, etc.

I have heard many, many other Tormach owners complaining of Mach bugs and problems caused by Mach in general. The bit-banged parallel port control system is just trouble waiting to happen, and it does, frequently. The fact that any particular indivuduals may not have experienced Mach bugs, or realized they have experienced them, does not take away from the basic truth that Mach3 bit-banging over a parallel port is just bad news, as experienced and testified to by many, many Tormach owners over the years. Just go back and re-read some relevant threads with an open mind if you doubt this. I know I've posted about problems multiple times.

I haven't been using my mill much this year, unfortunately, but hopefully that will be changing, thanks to new projects and with new enthusiasm from my recent acquisition of a Dynomotion KFlop/KAnalog combo that I plan to use to replace the existing machine control board. When I find some linear scales at a good price I'm also going to be installing them and closing the positioning loop with the steppers and KFlop. At some point I'm looking forward to ditching my spring-loaded power drawbar setup and switching to a gear-reduction approach with a threaded rigid drawbar, like Ray has taken with his designs. I may combine this with an oversized servo spindle and possibly some kind of automatic switching mechanism for high/low gear and spindle-lock/drawbar turn functions, but I haven't figured out those details enough yet.

In any case, there is no question that Mach has problems, and many Tormach owners have experienced these problems. I don't know why you want to continue denying this plain truth; it seems as though your brand loyalty compels it perhaps? But why? Tormach is doing just fine, and we are doing them a better service to speak the plain truth about their products than to talk nonsense like denying the existence of Mach problems on Tormach machines. That's just absurd.

You're going to LOVE the KFlop - it's the single best thing I've done to my machines!

Regards,
Ray L.

[hjl4]

Hmmm........well I guess I should of stayed out of this thread. Sorry, I didn't realize it was only for Tormach owners. My bad.
But reading through all the replies, I have to seriously wonder what a terrible machine the Tormach really is. Spindle turns on during tool change. SCARY....... And having an axis move when not intended to? That is just down right dangerous. I'm glad I didn't buy the Tormach, as that was to be my first choice. I instead retrofitted and old Tree that runs Mach3. My start up sequence is probably safer than the Tormach, as Windows starts first, then Mach3 and then I manually switch the axis drives on. I load the Gcode into Mach3, and then energize the Spindle drive. Then hit cycle start and away it goes. I've never had any runaway issues with this configuration.
Again, sorry for butting into this thread. I'll pay more attention next time, I promise. LOL

[bobeson]

hjl4: Please note that I am overall still quite satisfied with my Tormach 1100, and expect to enjoy many more years of useful service as I upgrade the features that I don't like so much. Any machine with a parallel-port-controlled Mach3 installation is going to have similar problems. From what I can glean, the Tormach "lockdown" version of Mach is in fact rather stable compared to many other versions in use for retrofits and other low-cost machines, so I don't think these problems are cause to disparage the Tormach brand, by any means! I think they are a great company that will continue to improve their products, with an eye on retaining the value of existing machines through upgrade programs, etc. I'm not sorry I bought my PCNC1100 at all! I just wish that a better control system had been available for the price point needed by the original product development team. Now that the years have passed, and great products like the KFlop are available for low cost, it seems like a no-brainer that all new machines should have these upgraded control systems. One of the reasons I've been dragging my feet on getting my KFlop installed is that I keep hoping to read about some other Tormach owner doing the deed, so I can crib notes from them :-) Even better would be Tormach coming out with a new control board with hardware timing built in... It's been long enough now, though; I'm really looking forward to getting my machine all reconfigured and saying goodbye to Mach! I'm likely going to purchase the Tormach lathe, fwiw.

[datac]

In any case, there is no question that Mach has problems, and many Tormach owners have experienced these problems. I don't know why you want to continue denying this plain truth; it seems as though your brand loyalty compels it perhaps? But why? Tormach is doing just fine, and we are doing them a better service to speak the plain truth about their products than to talk nonsense like denying the existence of Mach problems on Tormach machines. That's just absurd.

I'll admit, I dont have a Tormach... They are not far from me and I did considered one but the work area was not large enough for the project I was assigned. I ended up with a Novakon with Mach, and that was short lived as the unpredictability was destroying parts.

Nonetheless, I believe the root of some having issues and others not comes down to a few different things. For one, I'd think it reasonable to conclude that over the years, Tormach did not send out every machine with the same exact PC Hardware.. Some are obviously going to work out better than another, especially if you consider that "windows update" and other hardware updates over time ARE going to have distinct effects from PC to PC. I believe this can contribute to all the variables people report.

Another issue is software date/age ? Are all Tormach users running the exact same version of software ? To my understanding, is Mach really the same as Tormach anyhow if they over time essentially re-worked program code so their machine DID work properly ?

I have NO doubt that there are Tormach owners with issues because it's undeniable that Mach's core has some issues. Heck, its fairly obvious that Tormach had serious software "concerns" when they went onto their Lathe development project and chose something else for a control.

[Spinnetti]

I started this post and though have less experience than many of you, I did work as a machinist for 7 years, and have been machining stuff off and on for 20+ years. I've got Mach3 on my self-converted 4 axis servo driven 12x37 lathe, my former self converted Mill, and my new series III tormach. To avoid any hint of problems, I bought EVERYTHING from Tormach, so eliminated all kinds of variables that way. In 10 years+ of Mach on all three machines, I've had the code wander off in to never-never land 3 times, breaking tools and scaring the crap out of me. On the tormach, I've had the spindle start at about 5 RPM twice, which was a near disaster both times, but no code wander. I built my house new, with lots of power and my machines a few feet from the main panel. I'm not making this stuff up. It's perfect for you? Greeeeaaat. Hasn't been for me, and the only common denominator is Mach. Not saying its a bad product, and the price was right, but I've also been in software development since the 80's (professionally since the early 90's), and pretty sure there are some loose threads in that code. Art has been good about troubleshooting, but it just leaves me uneasy. Tormach is going a new direction with their lathe, so they probably have some reason to do so also.

I'd like to do a psychology study on internet forums. As a arm chair sociologist, it falls to 4 main groups. 1. The haters. Doesn't matter what it is, they jump on it. 2. The conservatives (most of the people here) "everything is perfect, and if you say its not, you are attacking my self-worth". 3. The Objectives. Seems to be some issue, lets figure it out together through some rational discussion. 4. Lurkers. They don't contribute anything good or bad, they just "take".

There have been a few good ideas shared here. All threads start with some intended purpose and typically end in a pissing match between people with ego problems who simply can't let a stupid comment go uncommented on and drive the sane ones away. We've certainly gotten to that point on this thread. I wish thread starters could moderate their own threads!

[hjl4]

Spinnetti, what category do you fit in?

[Manoel06]

Well, there really seem to be some Tormach die-hard fans around here. We own and love a PCNC 1100 (less than six months old now) and use a Tormach controller with Mach3, of course. We've had MULTIPLE problems with Mach. The Z axis just loves to drop because of missed steps. We've had a chamfer mill plunge straight into a fixture plate because Mach went crazy with tool compensation. A month ago the digital TTS touch tool took an unexpected dive as well (jogging up and Mach decided it was time to go down). Just today we were jogging the probe on Z when Mach decided to take a tour on the X axis, broking the tip. I guess that's more than anedoctal evidence that yes, it IS POSSIBLE to have problems with Mach even using Tormach's controller. We do have anedoctal evidence to indicate that, as someone else pointed out on this thread, restarting Mach after booting up the machine seems to alleviate or eliminate those issues completely.
While Tormach's support is mostly excellent, that's one issue they seem to avoid. They keep giving us to blank statements and pointing to that technical note on USB performance, but no reasonable explanation for Mach's unreasonable "magical" behavior.
Since we are tired of babysitting the machine when it works, and we have already spent more on spare parts than we'd care for, we're switching to Linux as soon as our current projects are finished and delivered. I believe Tormach supports LinuxCNC, and I've already studied it a little bit, but there's really not much I know about KFlop. How easy would it be to configure it?

[JohnToner]

Spinnetti, I'd be slow to pigeon-hole these guys. My CNC experience is a year with the 1100, and a set-up class 6 or 7 years ago. These guys have bailed me out of many problems and never put me down for my ignorance. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys here and in my experience they have always been professional and courteous. I've never seen a hint of hate. I certainly wouldn't try to psychoanalyze any one of them (I'm a little biased regarding anything related to psychology as I tend to regard it as "psycho-babel"). Regarding your experience with the 5 rpm spindle incident, I too have experienced that and the only thing I could do was to hit the big red button. It has only happened to me a few times, but it does so w/o rhyme or reason. I don't know if its a bug in Mach 3, a problem with Windows, or what. I just live with it. Might give Linux a try sometime, but probably not. I've also had the Z axis go crackers a few times. It happens. But, although I would like perfection, I accept it that I don't have a perfect system. But, for an investment of a few thousand dollars I have a functional and useful CNC machine in my garage. I also have a nice Lagun knee mill but it doesn't get much use anymore. Would I get another Tormach if I had the need? Absolutely.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

...there's really not much I know about KFlop. How easy would it be to configure it?

Sadly, setting up a KFlop is not for the faint-hearted. For anyone who is comfortable writing C code, it's not too bad, but there is a learning curve. First time I did it, it only took a few hours to get basic functionality working (axis motion, and very simple spindle control), but getting full functionality does require writing a fair amount of code. The following functions require writing C code:

Hardware initialization (this is really pretty simple)
Charge pump (if needed)
Spindle Speed Control (simple spindle on/off control is very simple)
Spindle brake? (depends on how this is implemented on the Tormach)
Limits
Homing
MPG/pendant/etc.
Probing

The individual functions are mostly very simple - some just a few lines of code, though I now have several thousand lines of code on my machines. The hardest part is really just understanding how the KFlop works, and what needs to be done. It's mostly very simple once you understand it, but the documentation is not well organized, so it takes some real effort to climb the learning curve.

That said, putting KFlop on my machines is, by far, the best thing I've ever done for overall reliability and stability, and was worth every second of the time it took. And I took my install as far as writing my own CNC controller application, so I use neither Mach3, nor the KFlop KMotionCNC application. I also created my own "smart" pendant, that's provides the functionality I wanted, so I basically use the keyboard/mouse for little more than selecting what program to load, and setting up the tool table. Virtually everything else I can control from the pendant. NO other motion controller offers that kind of flexibility.

My guess would be, someone comfortable with C, would probably take a few days to get a Tormach ported over to KFlop, not counting the ATC. The ATC could well be somewhere between very difficult and impossible without technical help from Tormach. It all depends on how the ATC interfaces to the controller.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Jabs1542]

So while we are on the Kflop topic, has anyone implemented a SmoothStepper on their PCNC? It looks like it should be a simple install that would give you USB out of the computer, eliminate the need for direct CPU to parallel pin control, and still use the BOB on the PCNC.

[Steve Seebold]

DAMN!!! You guys sure seem to have a lot of problems with your machines. I bought my machine in mid July 2011 and got it hooked up and running by early August. I did everything the manual said to do and because of that, ALL I HAVE EVER DONE IS RUN IT. I go out in the morning, turn it on, send it to its home position and start making parts.

It has never misqued once, and I can hold plus or minus .001 all frigging day long.

[LeeWay]

Why doesn't Kflop distribute pre authored code for a basic 3 axis machine? Why does every customer they have have to be well versed in C programming? It sounds like a poor business model to me. It hog ties the customer base and prevents many sales. Just curious about that. I might be a potential customer but I haven't even bothered to research the product because I cannot program. My shortcoming or their's?

Back to Mach 3. While Mach 3 has some issues obviously, there are many versions of it available and sometimes a different version will not exhibit an issue you may have been having. Not for the Tormach factory version of course, but for the masses.
On steppers missing steps, you can't really just conclude that Mach 3 is the culprit. It could very well be control related, but my bet would be on electrical noise or mechanical stiction slipping or binding especially on Z. While that isn't directly related to Mach 3, it is indirectly and it would be nice if Mach 3 recognized an error when it is happening and stops motion. I imagine it does do that on a servo system, but not open loop steppers.

Tormach's control cabinet design is apparently very good because there are many that do not have any electrical noise issues. I know my Torus is as far away from my service panel as possible in my shop. The opposite corners. My Plasma cutter is even further away as it is outside under the open shed. Those type machines have a tendency to disrupt electronic in the vicinity as does placing a machine close to the service panel.
While a separate ground rod is suggested for use on a plasma table, I have to wonder if a milling machine might not benefit from that as well if you have witnessed odd intermittent behavior.

A spindle starting at even 5 RPM would do some serious damage if you happen to be changing the tool by hand. Cuts would be bad enough, but depending on the tool, it could wrap your hand around the spindle.
I have seen the results of that happening on a drill press that caught a gloved hand and it was not pretty.

[hjl4]

You hit the nail on the head LeeWay. That is exactly why I didn't purchase the Kflop. I have enough things to do and think about as an engineer, and was turned off by the fact I had to implement my own C code into a control board. Kflop has failed in that department.

[sperman]

DAMN!!! You guys sure seem to have a lot of problems with your machines. I bought my machine in mid July 2011 and got it hooked up and running by early August. I did everything the manual said to do and because of that, ALL I HAVE EVER DONE IS RUN IT. I go out in the morning, turn it on, send it to its home position and start making parts.

It has never misqued once, and I can hold plus or minus .001 all frigging day long.

Steve,

I'm sure you've had great success with your Tormach, but I have a hard time accepting your opinion as unbiased, since you are a consultant for Tormach.

Consultants | Tormach LLC providers of personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items.

I would think that a person who gets paid consulting fees aren't very likely to badmouth a product on a public forum, and might be enticed to sweep problems under the rug. I'm not saying that has happened in your case, but you have to admit that you have a vested interest in the Tormach product.

[waltpermenter]

Steve,

I'm sure you've had great success with your Tormach, but I have a hard time accepting your opinion as unbiased, since you are a consultant for Tormach.

Consultants | Tormach LLC providers of personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items.

I would think that a person who gets paid consulting fees aren't very likely to badmouth a product on a public forum, and might be enticed to sweep problems under the rug. I'm not saying that has happened in your case, but you have to admit that you have a vested interest in the Tormach product.

well that's a pretty inflammatory accusation, he's a tormach consultant not a mach 3 consultant. what of the several others that have posted saying the same thing about no trouble with mach 3, do they have a vested interest too? i find the attacks on people who claim no trouble ridiculous, you should be asking them for help in troubleshooting your system if you've had problems, yes it's a system, lots of little things can lead to errors, blaming it all on the software is pretty narrow minded.