[SPD]

I would really love to get a job in a machine shop. Even if it meant starting out sweeping floors etc. Just to gain knowledge and move up. I eventually plan on going to a trade school for CNC. My questions is. Are there many places out there willing to hire a guy with no expedience? Obviously not a Forman or anything. A trainee. And will actually train and teach. I have basic knowledge of most everything. I would just really like to work in it. And I don't mind having to sweep and clean. Everyone starts somewhere. And I'm not expecting to be paid 15$/hour to do so either. Just wondering if its hard to find a place that is willing to hire someone in a trainee position.

[ddprecision]

That's how I started, sweeping the floor, from there to the burr bench and on from there. I now own my own shop. In 25 years of machining I have never been out of work. This is one of those jobs where you can go just about anywhere and find work. It's a good trade to be in. All you can do is walk in and ask.

[davidlee]

Well I have been in the trade for about 15 years if you count votech. The one thing I have noticed is that shops are very hard to find that will actualy give you the time and help you need to become a "real machinist" not a CNC operator. It is best to find a shop that still does manaual machinig in some shape or form like a Bridgeport mill. You will learn more running a manual mill in one year than you can learn operating a CNC mill in 2 years. So that is just my 2 cents. Good luck I love machining and it is a great job so many options once you get into the trade for a while. There are companys that will train you but they are hard to find. Check with your states labor board to see if there are any companies that still have a state sponcered 4 year apprentiship program to become a Journeyman Machinist.

[WILLwork4money]

To Quote "davidlee" [[Check with your states labor board to see if there are any companies that still have a state sponcered 4 year apprentiship program to become a Journeyman Machinist.]]

I agree with "davidlee", in addition, labor boards provide training workshops of their own for various fields!

One humble suggestion, when you apply for a job, don't use this line (straight out of your post:::>>>I have basic knowledge of most everything , thats what is called a "KNOW IT ALL" and most experienced shop foreman will pick up on it!!!

best of luck in your journey
WILLwork4money

[newguy81]

What state are you in?

[phantomcow2]

I have an apprenticeship at a shop here. I already had manual machining knowledge, and a tiny bit of CNC. Still, I started sweeping floors. Then deburring parts and polishing molds. Now I run one, sometimes two machines . If I did not have this opportunity, and wanted to get a job in this trade, I would go straight to school. I know a guy at the shop I am at got a part time job there while he was going to school, the owners were happy to hire him because he was going to school for this.

[SPD]

I live in Ohio


Definately not a know it all, Will. lol I'll be the first to admit that. And enjoy learning. As far the "basic knowlege" thing. I just meant that if you give me an edge finder or something. I wouldnt ask you what it was. I'll have to rehprase that. :P

About the school and things. I want to learn on manual machines..and work with manual machines. At least for now. Tech school is to learn proper programming for cnc machines among other things.

[phantomcow2]

Oh, then just get a mill from Grizzly or whatever and start playing . If you want to practice a little more closely with industry, buy a bridgeport or clone.

[baran3]

just walk into small shops and ask it can't hurt. don't be afraid to leave if you don't like the way things are looking. a place that will train you and let you work to your potential is rare but can be found. the less businesslike and less "professional" the place the better probably. family owned job shop. any production shop you will just push a button. also i wouldn't be set in learning on manuals. You will learn just as much about machining on a CNC as long as you are the one making the setups and programming. The fact is a young person is much more valuable to a shop owner as a CNC machinist because you are likely more capable of grasping the technology aspect than most older employees. Your ability to quickly pick up CAD/CAM will be a valuable assest to them. Find a small shop with CNC's and old timers. Work on CNC's and get your advice on how to machine parts from the old guys. may be an advantage to actually turning the handles, but you're more likely to find an opportunity on CNC's. It's a business, a young person is more valuable in this manner. Do small things on manuals for set-ups or in your spare time while machine is running. Basic idea: If you place a piece of material on a CNC it won't cut a part until you tell it to. You can learn everything on a CNC you can on a manual. The trick is finding the right place that will give you a print and say "do it"

[SPD]

I really want to work in it. Not just have a little mill to toy around with. Although I plan to do that as well. Through school I've been able to use MCX and SW 06/07. I really enjoy using SW07. I figure I have to start somewhere though. And if that means 6 months of sweeping. I'm all for it.

I'm only in Ohio for right now. And may be moving to the Chicago area depending on how things go these next few months. I hear that Ohio is really bad on jobs in the field. So being near Chicago may help there.

Manual or CNC. I want to be a part of it. The idea of taking a hunk of metal and making into something useful..intrigues me. I originally was going to be welder(took 3 years of courses) and decided it really wasn't something I could see myself doing for any long period of time.

[MnotLyon]

just walk into small shops and ask it can't hurt. don't be afraid to leave if you don't like the way things are looking. a place that will train you and let you work to your potential is rare but can be found. the less businesslike and less "professional" the place the better probably. family owned job shop. any production shop you will just push a button. also i wouldn't be set in learning on manuals. You will learn just as much about machining on a CNC as long as you are the one making the setups and programming. The fact is a young person is much more valuable to a shop owner as a CNC machinist because you are likely more capable of grasping the technology aspect than most older employees. Your ability to quickly pick up CAD/CAM will be a valuable assest to them. Find a small shop with CNC's and old timers. Work on CNC's and get your advice on how to machine parts from the old guys. may be an advantage to actually turning the handles, but you're more likely to find an opportunity on CNC's. It's a business, a young person is more valuable in this manner. Do small things on manuals for set-ups or in your spare time while machine is running. Basic idea: If you place a piece of material on a CNC it won't cut a part until you tell it to. You can learn everything on a CNC you can on a manual. The trick is finding the right place that will give you a print and say "do it"

I've got a small shop in the Kansas City area. I've trained a number of employees in the past. I'm not very likely to do it again. It seems we small shops do the training, so the big shops can have skilled employees. The only way I would consider training another one is if he could convience me he would hang around a while.
Any skilled guys out there looking for a good job?

[FranH]

Here in New England, to hire someone off the street and train is rare simply because small jobs shops cannot afford to lose money on you while you learn, and, because after you pick up a bit of knowledge, you move on to larger shops.

The other thing is.......I wanna be a race car driver, been to Indy, know which direction they go, I found the gas pedal, I'm a race car driver!!

OK,.....here's a wheelbarrow.....give me a couple laps.

You manually program a part and .010 becomes 10.0 and funny noises before you can say holy crap and a $30,000.00 spindle needs replacing. This sorta dampens shop owners from newbies.

If I were in my twenties I would buy my own mid-level cad/cam (AT WHATEVER COST!!) and become proficient at making parts on the screen. Then I would find a job in a shop that has some Bridgeport type cnc machines (2 axis). Be willing to learn on the manual and nudge your way to cnc. Because you have already your cad/cam, and because you are proficient in it....meaning the shop will be MAKING MONEY FROM YOUR ABILITIES, when after you have manually squared up some blanks, you can suggest perhaps how to proceed from there, show on your laptop how your cad/cam would do it.

When your able to square up parts, use an edge finder, drill and tap a 1/4 - 20 thread, (speedsand feeds from your cad/cam), you will be top shelf.

As an aside, I bought my cad/cam and self taught because I could not go cross country to learn.......to learn was to put a complex shaped part on the screen, rotate it for reference points. You see I was in qc, had 2 hours to do 8 hours work (typical job shop). By locating off certain characteristics and rotating 90 degrees I could verify what the toolmakers had done. We are talking + or - .0001 inch.

After a month of this I was faster than the number one toolmaker using math help on his Bridgeport. He had 20+ years experience and was GOOD. (No, the Bridgeport did not hold .0001 but it had to hold within .002 to .003 before the part was finished ground.)

PM me and I'll suggest cad/cam.

FranH

[protopath]

Hire in at a temp service and start pushing buttons. Learn the screens, ask questions. Night shift is good because you get a chance to do more on your own.

Just learing to press cycle start, offsetting, reading prints, and measuring parts will take some time.

Buy a Kennedy and start filling it with quality tools. Very important, shows that you are serious about being a machinist.

When you get tired of pushing buttons at the first place, move on and take a step up the ladder at a new place. Repeat. Manual will always be around but CNC will be where the big money is at for those of us that are younger.

Don't be afraid to change jobs especially if you've been doing the same thing over and over, that is when you've been pigeonholed. Good employers are rare, most just use you, use them back for the knowledge.

Don't look to sweep floors, try being an operator, plenty of temp services will take any goober off the street and stick them on a machine.

Once you have enough experience, run, don't walk from the temp. serv. and only hire direct. Never trust a temp service: when I began they would skim money from checks, lie about the job, it took one of them a month to get me a check. They are only good for starting out.

[ImanCarrot]

You manually program a part and .010 becomes 10.0 and funny noises before you can say holy crap and a $30,000.00 spindle needs replacing. This sorta dampens shop owners from newbies.

Valuable advice... you WILL have driving accidents, don 't let it put you off though- everyone has at some point thought "holy sh**! I didn't ask it to ram into the headstock at full traverse".

Good luck!

[cdlenterprises]

You're better off taking the manual route first. Personally, I've never seen a shop that would take someone in off the street with no experience and put them directly on the CNC's. They almost always start off burring parts, doing secondary's on manual equipment, etc. You can't have a good understanding of CNC's unless you have some concept on how to make the part manually. For example, you'll never understand the difference between cutting aluminum and 300 series stainless until you try to run an endmill through each on a Bridgeport(that handle turns hard in stainless, don't it) But now put a corncob rougher in ther that's made for stainless and it cuts so much easier now doesn't it. These are the same forces the CNC's are working against and you wouldn't know unless you had felt them for yourself on the Bridgeport. Besides, a good CNC guy is going to need to know manual machines to make fixtures, custom tooling, etc. In the meantime, I agree with Fran H about the Cad/Cam deal. I would get a student version of MasterCam or SurfCam and try to learn it in parallel with your manual training. Oh, and don't forget this forum. There's a lot of info out here.... Good luck!

:cheers:

[MnotLyon]

Hire in at a temp service and start pushing buttons. Learn the screens, ask questions. Night shift is good because you get a chance to do more on your own.

Just learing to press cycle start, offsetting, reading prints, and measuring parts will take some time.

Buy a Kennedy and start filling it with quality tools. Very important, shows that you are serious about being a machinist.

When you get tired of pushing buttons at the first place, move on and take a step up the ladder at a new place. Repeat. Manual will always be around but CNC will be where the big money is at for those of us that are younger.

Don't be afraid to change jobs especially if you've been doing the same thing over and over, that is when you've been pigeonholed. Good employers are rare, most just use you, use them back for the knowledge.

Don't look to sweep floors, try being an operator, plenty of temp services will take any goober off the street and stick them on a machine.

Once you have enough experience, run, don't walk from the temp. serv. and only hire direct. Never trust a temp service: when I began they would skim money from checks, lie about the job, it took one of them a month to get me a check. They are only good for starting out.

This seems to be the attitude that most young people have. It's the exact attitude that makes it impossible for me to train people.

[protopath]

Lyon: what is it about that attitude that you have trouble with? That is the reality in my area. Many shop's yearly raises fail to beat cost of living increases. Why stay at one place and get a $0.10 raise when you can go three miles down the road and get a $1.00 more?

My grandfather worked 30 years in one union factory, made a great living.

My father is now on his second major career.

The way jobs are viewed is changing, there is a lack of trust on both sides. Most machinists I know my age are changing jobs at least every two years just to get the raises. And we can't all be slackers.

I bust my butt in a shop and get a very poor raise. I won't negoitate a raise, if you value your employee you will pay him what he is worth. Often employers will offer more money at a two weeks notice, I don't take it, the time for that is past.

I started as a button monkey, right off the street from a temp service. Had no clue CNC even existed or that machining was even a trade. Manual came later for me, just became really comfortable with it last year. Lots of guys have started like this, I've worked with three in the last year. Apprenticeships are not availible here, my boss and the eldest man in the shop have them. My boss got his in another state, and the other one was aquired locally 30 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for those more experienced, they know all the tricks and teach the trade.

My theory is this: If I bust my butt for a year, sweat, blood, and tears and evals come around and it is low, time to look for a new job. Show your best in good faith, if it is not returned you don't try to "fix" it you leave.

[MnotLyon]

Lyon: what is it about that attitude that you have trouble with?

There is no loyalty. Ya, I know that a lot of companies have no loyalty either, but I invest a huge amount of money in my employees. If they leave for $.50, I get no return on my investment. Why would I want to send somebody to school, pay them while they're there, just to have them leave? Why should I invest in your education? What is going to happen to our trade if nobody is in it for the long haul?

That is the reality in my area. Many shop's yearly raises fail to beat cost of living increases. Why stay at one place and get a $0.10 raise when you can go three miles down the road and get a $1.00 more?

Do you get a raise every year? When was the last time your company raised their shop rate? Where does the extra money come from? Does your productivity increase enough to cover the extra cost, or do you just head down the street where they really don't know what you're capable of?

Here's a few reasons to stay put that young people rarely think about.
How about your work environment? Is it a good place to work, or is it full of back stabbing and fighting? How about their training? Is there a chance to get more education? What about a chance to move up in the company? Do you think they'll offer that to a guy with a history of job hopping? How about retirement? Does your job hopping take care of your future? What happens to the vacation time that you've built up?
How many times do you think a 2 year or less stent on your resume can show up before nobody wants to hire you? You can bet that's one of the first things I look at when I see a resume.

I had a guy in here last week that has worked in 2 different shops during his 27 years of experience. I told him he could name his price to come and work for me. He turned me down, because he had more than one shop with similar offers. If you keep hopping, you're going to have troubles when you're pushing 50 and everybody is wanting the young guy.

My grandfather worked 30 years in one union factory, made a great living.

My father is now on his second major career.

The way jobs are viewed is changing, there is a lack of trust on both sides. Most machinists I know my age are changing jobs at least every two years just to get the raises. And we can't all be slackers.

I bust my butt in a shop and get a very poor raise. I won't negoitate a raise, if you value your employee you will pay him what he is worth. Often employers will offer more money at a two weeks notice, I don't take it, the time for that is past.
.

How does that help fix the problem? Wouldn't it be better to talk to your boss before giving notice? Maybe there's a trait that you need to work on before you're ready for your next raise. Maybe there's another skill to be learned. Maybe they just haven't noticed that you have picked up a new skill. By jumping ship everytime you disagree with your boss, you are loosing valuable trust, and most likely an oportunity to pick up a valuable skill. Yea, you'll pick up a short term benifit, but its at the cost of long term security. Show your boss that you're willing to do whatever it takes to be the man that he wants you to be, and any good boss will see to it that you're kept happy.

I started as a button monkey, right off the street from a temp service. Had no clue CNC even existed or that machining was even a trade. Manual came later for me, just became really comfortable with it last year. Lots of guys have started like this, I've worked with three in the last year. Apprenticeships are not availible here, my boss and the eldest man in the shop have them. My boss got his in another state, and the other one was aquired locally 30 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for those more experienced, they know all the tricks and teach the trade.

They can't teach, if you're not there to learn.

My theory is this: If I bust my butt for a year, sweat, blood, and tears and evals come around and it is low, time to look for a new job. Show your best in good faith, if it is not returned you don't try to "fix" it you leave.

There isn't anything wrong with going after a raise. Let your boss know what you think you're worth. You don't have to be shy about that. He sure wont be shy in telling you what traits you need to work on. Show him that your pride isn't holding you back. Show him that you take his advice seriously. He'll notice. It's possible that your past is affecting your raises. Why offer a man more money when you figure he's going to jump ship anyway?

Remember, when talking to your boss about money, he's used to having to negotaite for a job. He likely approaches all conversations as if they were a negotiation. He's not going to give you his best first, because it goes against everything that he's learned in makeing his business a success. That does NOT mean that he doesn't value you, and your work, it's simply the only way he knows how to conduct business. After all, this is business. If he offers you less than you think you're worth, then let him know. And, let him know WHY you think you're worth more. Let him know that you've learned something that makes you more valuable. Show him that you've improved on the areas that were on your last eval. Listen to what he has to say without making excuses. He's heard them all, and he really doesn't care. Tell him that you'll fix those areas, then DO IT. Even if you don't see them as a problem.

As a very last resort, you can let him know that joe blow down the street wants you, and is offering more money. If he matches it, why change jobs?

[protopath]

I would love to find a shop where I could stay a while. However, if I had not made job hops I would be earning at least $5 less an hour than I am now. And for me and my family that is the difference between failing and scraping by.

Good shops are rare, and I when I find one that returns to me what I put into the job I will stay. However, when you hear your boss griping about his raise, that is a bad sign. In my current job my boss had very little input on deciding raises, it is some poindexter in H.R.

Another thing, if I read the market right, there is a scarcity of machinists and a surplus of jobs. That tells me that I am in demand, and thus should be valued. A smart employeer will see this and provide incentive to stay. Even if shop rate does not increase, my living expenses do and I don't have the capital to endure a 5 year business plan. That is the employeers problem not mine.

Planning for retirement is certainly important, but at this stage in my life getting pay up is much more important. Why blow money on rent when I could generate equity in a house.

Job hopping becomming the norm in those under 30:
http://www.itsinc.net/job-hop.htm

I work in a tech centered town, that also increases the job change rate. Some shops have enormous turnover, one place I worked at for a year and saw at least 15 people on my shift come and go. The company was also sold twice in that time.

You have certainly given me some things to think about, especially as far as negotiating raises is concerned.

[MnotLyon]

Planning for retirement is certainly important, but at this stage in my life getting pay up is much more important. Why blow money on rent when I could generate equity in a house.

Don't put off saving for retirement. Right now, time is on your side. Your money will grow much more if you set it aside now. If you wait until you're 50, you're going to have serious troubles.

I don't know how much your making, but I would guess that it's enough to buy a house. When I bought mine, I was making just over minimum wage, and was 19 years old. You just have to make it a priority. Of course that advice doesn't count if you live in Kookyfornia.