[gearhead dan]

I'm wondering if anybody with a Patriot lives in the SF Bay Area. I'd like to check one of these out.
Also, for all you owners out there, what is it like to change over from the mill to the lathe and vice versa?

[gearhead dan]

Thanks for the reply. So you got the $200 off for paying with a check?
I keep going back and forth on this machine. I'm trying to figure out what the equivalent separate systems would be. Any thoughts?
Gearhead Dan

[smallblock]

I don't have the room for two separate machines so the Patriot really fits the bill nicely.

If you purchased separate machines these two would cost you about $4,500


http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/pro...th-Stand/G0484

http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/pro...ed-Lathe/G4003

There is a considerable saving with the Patriot over similar capacity separates, and the price difference is enough to justify any compromises related to the combination design.

The real savings come further down the road when considering DRO, CNC, Ball screws, coolants, benches etc. With separates, these costs are double right off the start.

[flatheadford49]

Potential customers should be directed to your website then given the sales pitch.

I am sure the CNCZONE will sell you a nice banner ad at the top of this forum, or better yet a big glossy one out front.

Good Luck
Flathead

[smallblock]

Potential customers should be directed to your website then given the sales pitch.

I am sure the CNCZONE will sell you a nice banner ad at the top of this forum, or better yet a big glossy one out front.

Good Luck
Flathead

No thanks, I've got all the work I can handle now-

[Roadster]

I just received a Shoptask Patriot last week. It is an innovative machine and probably up to anything that I wish to do. It is sitting on it's table top on the floor right now. Everything is running OK. Haven't done any turning or milling yet. Haven't found any casting sand anywhere either. Backlash seems to be in the .004 range which is a little tight. It arrived clean except for a light coat of oil, a little warehouse dust, and probably fumigant from China. The gearbox is oil tight with no signs of leaking.

Check Grizzly.com for separate units. A benchtop gunsmithing lathe and separate mill are about 5200 delivered. If you add in DRO and CNC, the price goes up quickly. The main advantage of the 3 in 1 is space saving and cost of adding DRO and CNC systems.

Right now, you need to consider if you can stand the stress of having several thousand dollars tied up for several months while you wait for a machine. If you can find a 0% interest rate for a year credit card, you can make your purchase and let the credit card company deal with the vendor if there is a problem. There is a 5% fee from Shoptask if you pay and change your mind. I'm not certain if that would apply with a credit card. I'm also not certain if that is normal for other companies now.

Grizzly and Shoptask both seem to be waiting on stock, so there is a delay. Enco has a website and does have machines in stock. I don't know anything about Grizzly quality other than an old gunsmith friend had one for his home shop and liked it. I don't know anything about Enco quality.

[instructor37]

I just received a Shoptask Patriot last week. It is an innovative machine and probably up to anything that I wish to do. It is sitting on it's table top on the floor right now. Everything is running OK. Haven't done any turning or milling yet. Haven't found any casting sand anywhere either. Backlash seems to be in the .004 range which is a little tight. It arrived clean except for a light coat of oil, a little warehouse dust, and probably fumigant from China. The gearbox is oil tight with no signs of leaking.

Check Grizzly.com for separate units. A benchtop gunsmithing lathe and separate mill are about 5200 delivered. If you add in DRO and CNC, the price goes up quickly. The main advantage of the 3 in 1 is space saving and cost of adding DRO and CNC systems.

Right now, you need to consider if you can stand the stress of having several thousand dollars tied up for several months while you wait for a machine. If you can find a 0% interest rate for a year credit card, you can make your purchase and let the credit card company deal with the vendor if there is a problem. There is a 5% fee from Shoptask if you pay and change your mind. I'm not certain if that would apply with a credit card. I'm also not certain if that is normal for other companies now.

Grizzly and Shoptask both seem to be waiting on stock, so there is a delay. Enco has a website and does have machines in stock. I don't know anything about Grizzly quality other than an old gunsmith friend had one for his home shop and liked it. I don't know anything about Enco quality.

I posted on this subject before- I was actually in favor of separate machines in the beginning, but soon realized that the added costs of DRO and CNC would have eaten up our budget and gotten us fewer machiones. The combos have some compromises, but having more fully equipped CNC units gets more people with hands on experience.

[flatheadford49]

I can understand the budget situation but, I'm wondering why a school would train students on a machine that would never be found in industry. Maybe this isn't a machine shop class. But I would think even a couple used fadal 4020's or haas tl2 or something with a fanuc control would give a graduate more ammo when he went for that first job interview. Then have a couple 3 in 1's in the back to keep a few students busy. 3in1's are great for hobby or a small business guy in his garage or shop banging out some parts to make extra money, but to be trained on for today's jobs, I don't know. Maybe someone will enlighten me.

I scrolled down the list here till I got tired but could not find a school
with a 3 in 1 of any flavor, maybe you could try.

http://www.cncci.com/resources/cnc%20schools.htm

UPDATE! I went out and got a couple eclairs and sat back down and went thru the whole list, Phew!!!
I found one school out of the whole list. I thought you guys were pulling my leg.
Here's the school info:

Location: Laconia, NH
General:
School name: New Hampshire Community Technical College Laconia, North Campus
URL:
Contact name: Ken Martin
Contact phone number: 603-528-9279
E-mail: [email protected]
CNC related degrees offered: Certificate in Industrial Technology
Courses related to:
Basic machining practice?: Yes
Shop math? Yes
Blueprint reading? Yes
Computer aided design? Yes
Computer aided manufacturing? Yes
3d programming?Yes
CNC manual programming? Yes
Setup and operation? Yes
Other courses related to CNC: n/a
Lab equipment:
Machine types:Shop-Task 3 in 1 Machining Centers
Control types: Flashcut
CAD system/s: Autocad 2000
CAM system/s: Mastercam V9
DNC systems:

I would still like to know why, because every other school on the list are using industrial type machines and controller.

Good Luck
Flathead

[Roadster]

The main thing in an industrial technology program is learning how to set up and operate a machine and understanding engineering drawings. It doesn't really matter about the brand of the machine. I learned on and used South Bend, Turn Master, and Jet lathes....Bridgeport and Southbend mills. Each of them is different as far as controls. With more companies going to CNC, the computer has become extremely important.

I looked at several school web sites even the one that I attended. None of them mention the brand of lathe or mill. Most only say that you learn how to use them. Most teach CNC now. Still you need to know how to work without CNC in most small shops.

If a student is making a part, a three in one for that individual has an advantage. The student can continue working rather than having to wait for someone else to finish a task and free up a separate machine. There were times I had to wait which can be a hassle when I drove 60 miles to get there. You can have 10 students busy rather than five busy and five waiting.

[flatheadford49]

If a student is making a part, a three in one for that individual has an advantage. The student can continue working rather than having to wait for someone else to finish a task and free up a separate machine. There were times I had to wait which can be a hassle when I drove 60 miles to get there. You can have 10 students busy rather than five busy and five waiting.

I agree with you there.

Good Luck
Flathead

[banctecbobn]

I must not add like you guys. If you have five 3n1 machines only five students can be busy at any given time. If you have seperates (five mills and five lathes) 10 students can be busy at any given time. Looks like twice as much waiting with a 3n1.

[flatheadford49]

OOPS, I missed that. Maybe one student was turning, and the other student was milling, on the same combo machine at the same time. Haha.
Yeah, but according to the "powers that be here" those pesky "dedicated units" cost too much, and take up too much floor space.
And that the money you save is enough to justify any compromises related to the combination design.

The name "dedicated unit" was given to describe a real lathe and mill to make them seem inferior to the combo. They say a "dedicated unit" can only perform one operation.

I've been on this forum way too much, it has been a lot of fun, but a few of the same guys, are here 24/7. Who could love a machine that much, or is there another reason they are here.

I have two combo machines, and I also have, to name two, a Leblond lathe and a Gorton milling machine. If someone says they had a leblond lathe that the spindle locked up, then exploded, and the bed split in half, I am not going to harass them every time they post, I know what each machine I have can do. I know some machines break down or are built with defective parts.

I would like to start a thread about rebuilding my combo machine but if I said something like, "Who taught the Chinese how to thread", because if you loosen any fastener on my combo machine one turn, you can grab it and shake it like a loose tooth. This would immediately put me on the s*** list around here.
So I don't say things like that.

Good Luck
Flathead

[instructor37]

The main thing in an industrial technology program is learning how to set up and operate a machine and understanding engineering drawings. It doesn't really matter about the brand of the machine. I learned on and used South Bend, Turn Master, and Jet lathes....Bridgeport and Southbend mills. Each of them is different as far as controls. With more companies going to CNC, the computer has become extremely important.

I looked at several school web sites even the one that I attended. None of them mention the brand of lathe or mill. Most only say that you learn how to use them. Most teach CNC now. Still you need to know how to work without CNC in most small shops.

If a student is making a part, a three in one for that individual has an advantage. The student can continue working rather than having to wait for someone else to finish a task and free up a separate machine. There were times I had to wait which can be a hassle when I drove 60 miles to get there. You can have 10 students busy rather than five busy and five waiting.

Well spoken and obviously from someone who has "been there-done that". The reasoning behind our decision was mostly financial- With a 50,000.00 budget, we had a number of choices for CNC equipped machines-
A. 2 Haas Mini mills- top quality production machines
B. 3 Tormach mills fitted out with lathe option, bench, coolant etc.
C. 2 each of various retrofit style 12 X 36 lathes and 9X 20 bench mills
D. 7 Patriot combo machines with CNC,DRO coolant etc.
Obviously we could get more machines overall with the Patriot, and we were well aware that they do not compare to a Haas. Now my own personal philosophy comes into play. I am an " old school " type and believe that students must first have a solid understanding of machines themselves before becoming operators. If we had a 50 million dollar budget, we could buy a warehouse full of Haas machines- 1 for each student. But then, what you turn out are not machinists, but parts loaders. Knowing in advance that Chinese made machines will have some issues, I made that part of the curriculum. In another post a while back I detailed out how we had a problem with one gib strip and how I turned it over to the students to come up with a solution. This went way beyond just being a simple part fix, but is a lesson in problem solving. My intention is for these students who finally graduate to understand the basics of how machines are built and to be self sufficient when a problem arises.
As far as the waiting time thing is concerned, despite some odd mathematics by one poster, its not just a matter of how many machines you have. If you have 5 mills and 5 lathes its easy to think that its the same as 10 combo machines. However, if your curriculum is divided into learning lathe work and mill work at different times, then the reality is different. I plan my courses so we do one and then the other, so we can set up all the combo machines as lathes for this period and later set them up all as mills. With seperates, half of the machines would be idle. Of course its never that simple, as we have overlapping courses, beginners and advanced students etc. So in reality all our machines seem to be in use constantly. But in the overall scheme of things we get more machine time for everyone with the combos.
Another factor is simply the cost of errors made by students. Of every 100 students who enroll in machinist classes, usually only about 10 will graduate and go on to the workplace. Right at the beginning the ones who simply don't have the natural ability with machinery get weeded out. Then come the guys with skills, but attitude problems, then as you get further along, some simply can't comprehend the mathematics etc. An instructor's biggest fear is turning one of these kids loose on a 50,000.00 machine. The combo machines are a good place to let them get their feet wet without worrying about thousands in repairs.
The one fellow who did the research was probably correct in that most public schools do not buy combo machines. Often they are bound by politics and " made in USA" rules. Plus, many of the schools have surplus military or industrial equipment that is donated to them. With Detroit in virtual shutdown, there is probably a huge amount of equipment to be had just for the cost of freight right now.

[norvil1]

I must not add like you guys. If you have five 3n1 machines only five students can be busy at any given time. If you have seperates (five mills and five lathes) 10 students can be busy at any given time. Looks like twice as much waiting with a 3n1.

thats the way it adds up for me, but then what do i know?

[jdclark]

I must not add like you guys. If you have five 3n1 machines only five students can be busy at any given time. If you have seperates (five mills and five lathes) 10 students can be busy at any given time. Looks like twice as much waiting with a 3n1.

A couple of things are wrong about your math-
1. You are comparing 10 seperates to only 5 combos-
This is only valid if you can get 10 seperates for the same price as 5 combos.
Example-
Shopmaster Patriot- with 7amp cnc system 6789.00 ( prices from their website) Gives you a 17 X 32 CNC lathe and a 9 X 18 CNC mill
Syil X 4 with CNC is very close in milling size for 4995.00
Smithy 12X36 CNC lathe is about 9800.00
Total 14795.00
The difference is more than double.
Of course this is based on known brand names- there are a lot of Chinese made manual lathes and mills being retrofitted by small shops for less.
As far as new American made products are concerned, the Haas Mini Mill will run about 25000.00 and a Colchester Hardinge lathe will be about the same.



Its obvious that you cannot do both lathe and mill work at the same time on a combo, but it offers more flexibility in that you can adjust for various circumstances- If 7 guys have lathe projects- run 7 of them as lathes- whereas with separates, only 5 guys can do lathe work while 2 have to wait.

Of course this whole " argument" is on the surface about vocational schools, but underneath its really about the fact that all the 3 in 1 machines are made in China, while there is a very dedicated group that advocates " good ol' used American iron"

[Roadster]

In the curriculum that I took after I retired, one could get a certificate in gunsmithing and if desired an associates degree in industrial arts. It was a five semester course which included building your tools first and then firearms projects. If one chose to get the associates degree, there were additional liberal arts type classes. The gunsmithing certificate was based on completion of tools and projects. The class had different students working at all levels based on completion of projects, not a class schedule. We had seven lathes and possibly seven mills. There were days when all seven lathes would be busy all day with no one using a mill. Other days, that would change and the mills would be full. The numbers on each type unit varied. Other times, the machine shop would be empty.

Everyone in the class was on a different page. Sometimes a student would have a mill or lathe set up and leave to go to an english class. There were individuals who could complete two semesters of work in a little over a semester. There were those who went two semesters and never completed the first tools. There were those who wanted to learn and get out and make an income. There were those who were living off of mom and dad plus getting Pell Grant money who never wanted to be on their own. There were the smart, the dumb, the interested, the unconcerned, the energetic, and the lazy. And of course the mixture of those traits.

If a project requires moving from mill to lathe and back, the student has to clean the machine, move, perform the task, clean the machine, and move again. Assuming the machine is still available. You never leave a machine dirty. The student learns a lot about cleaning on dedicated units. On the three in one, the student learns a lot about setting up by switching.

It takes roughly eight thousand to equip a three in one with CNC and DRO. It takes roughly 17 thousand to equip an inexpensive separate mill and lathe with CNC and DRO. Of course, tooling is extra. Ten three in ones for 80 thousand. Ten separate lathes and ten separate mills for 170 thousand. Plus, twice as much space for the separate units. The 90 saved can be used to purchase one or two separate lathe and mill units with or without CNC and DRO plus additional tooling and supplies.

Teach mostly with the three in ones. Use the stand alone or dedicated units to teach the different threading procedure or how to grab a thread on a lathe. Use the dedicated mill for the tilting head and swing away capability.

Budgeting for hands on courses requiring expensive machinery is difficult. Most of the individuals in the higher education system are clean classroom on schedule people with a masters or PhD. Their budget is their salary. They look down their noses at manual type work and feel that it is over budgeted because the cost includes more than instructor's salary. Those individuals unfortunately are part of the budgeting process.

[flatheadford49]

Of course this whole " argument" is on the surface about vocational schools, but underneath its really about the fact that all the 3 in 1 machines are made in China, while there is a very dedicated group that advocates " good ol' used American iron"

That's not me. We Americans, want to buy things as cheap, cheap, cheap, as we can. Then, we want to make more, more, more, money at work. So with that mindset, there will never be a manual machine manufactured here. So, there is a definite need for Chinese made (cheap) machines and practically everything else we buy. There is only a limited amount of "old american iron" left, sorry to say.

As far as the vocational schools, If the goal of the program was to produce a graduate ready for todays cnc industry. Or just some machines to give a few engineering students some hands on, would to me make a difference in the
type of machines the students should be trained on.

Go thru this list of schools and have a look at their lab machines list:
http://www.cncci.com/resources/cnc%20schools.htm

Good Luck
Flathead

[fastlanecafe]

That's not me. We Americans, want to buy things as cheap, cheap, cheap, as we can. Then, we want to make more, more, more, money at work. So with that mindset, there will never be a manual machine manufactured here. So, there is a definite need for Chinese made (cheap) machines and practically everything else we buy. There is only a limited amount of "old american iron" left, sorry to say.


Good Luck
Flathead

I agree with that- its a characteristic of everyone worldwide right down to the Arab woman buying rice in the local market. We all look for the best price first and the country of origin is usually the last thing on anyone's mind. There wasn't a machine like the 3 in1 before JT got the whole thing started in his home garage and never one built in USA. There were a few small lathes like the Craftsman, Sears, Woolworth etc, but I think they were all built by Logan and just branded with different names. South Bend also built some benchtop models which are still popular for collectors. Both of those companies made their money in wartime production in both world Wars when the contracts came from our tax dollars and there was no negotiation over the price. That is why they were so well built. After the massive build up for those wars was over, they slipped back into mere shadows of their former selves because the cost to produce the same machines and sell them on the free market was just too high.

[Gary41]

Hi Guys,
I just joined your sight and I am wanting to buy A shopmaster. And I was wandering if you guys could tell me who would be the best person to buy from.
I would even consider A second hand one. I don't need all the cnc stuff
Thanks

[Fast01]

I don't believe you can buy a new from anyone but Shoptask/Shopmaster. They show up used every now and then, but I haven't seen them too often Although, I haven't looked either.