[daniellyall]

the prices differences per month from standard to Ultimate from what was said the other day, (it will change when they make there mind up what program is going to have what 4 and 5th axis feature).

it's confusing and they get told of at least once a week.

but you can just ask on the forum for your code to be done

[yohudi]

I disagree that fusion 360 would not replace Gmax and tool kit..........

Dan

Hi there,

Dan,

I couldn't care less what you use to be honest.... and as you are not up to speed on anything related to current / onwards development of CNC toolkit... you have no real idea as to the true situation....

Fusion is good but very un-foccused in respect of what it does... I can do more, faster, with the current incomplete version of what cnc_toolkit will / has become.... and so could anybody... after 10 mins.. This has been the whole point.... to broaden the overall usage/appeal by creation of a load-and-code approach to Simultaneous 5-Axis.... that works.... Development has not revolved around your own personal needs / desires, nor would it ever..... I don't work for you...

Enjoy Fusion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDfaHmyMvI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3rOWfMkY-s

[daniellyall]

there will be a point in time when fusion pases everything that is years away.

[yohudi]

there will be a point in time when fusion pases everything that is years away.

Hi there,

I don't doubt that in time, Fusion 360 will likely come to dominate the CAD / CAM marketplace. That is the Autodesk mission. Looks like they are following the Microsoft model Bill Gates described in the 90's. Install part of the application locally.... keep critical parts online.... and make access to them subscription. Making a "FREE" version available acheives several other important objectives...

1. It obliterates pay applications where Fusion results are equal to the task or better
2. It addresses issues with piracy... Autodesk used to be plauged by this. Now they 'know' every user... or the software doesn't work
3. It finds a vast number of users, who you never knew about before, becase previously they couldn't afford your software.
4. In the license agreement users likely permit trawling ofhost systems... so Autodesk can identify usage of competing CAD/CAM applications and research what to add in future Autodesk product.
5. FREE testing of Autodesk Research + Development

"FREE" distrubution to educators, students (and now hobbyists) is designed to make using Autodesk software for combined CAD/CAM the de facto industry standard. When this occurs it maximises returns from the $100K+ adopters..... over the years $300 (Standard) and $1200 (Ultimate) subs soon add up. When you have a years worth of work attached to Fusion.. you are much more likely to renew. Many will buy into a multi-year deal.... all of which is great for market dominance....

However, there's an aspect of this "FREE distrubution" that is not so good and that should be of concern. It goes to creation of a proprietory software monopoly in a field that is / was becoming more diverse. Opensource is becoming the standard approach in the FREE software arena. Fusion 360 is a big pull away from this trend. Impact on future development of FREE CAD / CAM software is potentially very negative.

FREE Fusion 360 immediately sucks away the oxygen of future development of FREE 3 axis software.... FREE rotary axis applications are likewise impacted. I can think of several 4th axis utilities that would not have been developed, had Fusion 360 been around at the time. Eventually this will come to Multi-Axis applications.... IMHO this won't be for sometime yet.... but the clock is running....

So looking a little way down the road.... What will happen when FREE Fusion 360 becomes the de-facto 3 axis CAD / CAM app and other FREE software is increasingly hard to find ?? Wiil Fusion 360 remain FREE at this point ?? How easy will it be to move away from Fusion 360 if Autodesk lower the minimum subscription threshold to $50K+ turnover or $25K+ turnover..... There's an old saying about eggs and baskets that CNC users would be wise to keep in mind...

FREE chains are still chains.... better get used to that clinking.....

Danny

[daniellyall]

yer and they said the ceo would be a bad fit well blow me down he owns a machine shop.

if you know where to look you can get there $$$$$ programs for cheap and they own some of the $00000 programs if they push fusion to far it will stuff those companies up.

and vectric will be still around for a very long time a lot of people still will use it I do and pay for updates.

and yes the long term plan is to be the one and only cad/cam.

[109jb]

I am a big fan of free and open source software. However, it has its problems too. They are usually supported by volunteers or sometimes even just one person and quite often in their spare time. Getting updates and bug fixes you are at the mercy of the spare time availability of those individuals. Sometimes it can be a looooooong time to get anything. As an example, I have been waiting for about 6-8 months for a promised update to an open source program that I use. I can't complain because it is not a paid for program, but the wait has been horrendous. On top of that, the internet is full of open source/free software that was partially developed but never finished. What happens if the developer loses interest or becomes incapacitated and can no longer support it? These are all valid concerns when using an open source software.

With a commercial product that is made available to hobbyists for free, you also have the paying customers who are going to expect, no demand, that bugs are fixed promptly, and promised updates are performed. If the commercial product does not keep up with competitor's products, then the paying customers aren't going to stay. For this reason the free users are able to ride the coattails of the commercial customers and get all of those benefits. While it is true that the maker can change the rules, in this case I believe Autodesk is very smart in that they are building a user base that can only help them. In addition, look at all of the bootleg software out there. Autodesk has essentially made it so that there is no reason to use that bootleg software at all because this new product is available for free anyway.

[daniellyall]

yep they are being clever students, startups and hobby guys get to use fusion for free. get you hooked on there product, inventor users get to use it.

if you have one of the production packages you get fusion as well. and free 2D cam.

but if you do NDA work you have to get inventor or one of there delcam programs not the french delcam the other one.

there are quite a few low cost or free products you can get out there that do 5th and 4th axis ok, a lot of the older machinist and engineers and people trained by them will always use the free or low cost products. companies like vectric and a few others will never disappear, they are too easy to use and just do the job they are made to do, they don't have the high speed toolpaths but you can just chuck your work at them and they will get done and done well.
I will always keep V carve pro it's my backup program, I am going to look at GMAX.

and I use a free open machine control program made by a old school dude.

the other thing ADSK do is people who use there products and are good and give support to other user's they don't get what they use free but they can use all the other programs free and are EE

[dmauch]

Can you name some of the Free 5 axis programs?

Dan Mauch

yep they are being clever students, startups and hobby guys get to use fusion for free. get you hooked on there product, inventor users get to use it.

if you have one of the production packages you get fusion as well. and free 2D cam.

but if you do NDA work you have to get inventor or one of there delcam programs not the french delcam the other one.

there are quite a few low cost or free products you can get out there that do 5th and 4th axis ok, a lot of the older machinist and engineers and people trained by them will always use the free or low cost products. companies like vectric and a few others will never disappear, they are too easy to use and just do the job they are made to do, they don't have the high speed toolpaths but you can just chuck your work at them and they will get done and done well.
I will always keep V carve pro it's my backup program, I am going to look at GMAX.

and I use a free open machine control program made by a old school dude.

the other thing ADSK do is people who use there products and are good and give support to other user's they don't get what they use free but they can use all the other programs free and are EE

[daniellyall]

google it Gmax is the first that pops up there are a few more

[yohudi]

I am a big fan of free and open source software........ However, it has its problems too........

Couldn't agree more... this is why I set up cnc4free.org back in 2007... To identify and demonstrate the best of freeware / opensource for CNC. Do most of this via youtube now, but I will be re-launching / revising the website at some point...

With a commercial product that is made available..... ....... Autodesk has essentially made it so that there is no reason to use that bootleg software at all because this new product is available for free anyway.

I would mostly agree in respect of better support... but not always.... bugfixes etc can still take some time.. and with Autodesk.. what you usually get is a new version that incorporates multiple fixes at once... so you can still be waiting.... A couple of times 'upgrades' 3D studio MAX have meant drastic dropoff in performance on existing hardware.... meaning mandatory hardware upgrades ($$$$)...... When developers are driven almost entirely by corporate user-base, negative cost impact on the hobbyist / individual is seldom a factor... corporates just add it to their deductable costs....

Re: "Bootleg" apps... Most of the high-end apps distributed as Warez etc are allowed to exist at least as far as the hobbyist or individual is concerened.... Corporate piracy or license abuse IS prosecuted, albeit rarely... Individuals running pirate or warez would (most likely) never have been a customer, so no loss is experienced in real terms... Warez versions were pretty much treated as free advertising.. extended trials. The interest in Autodesk product in the warez scene was vast... and I believe this is a large contributing factor to the development of the new 'FREE' distribution approach.

yep they are being clever .... get you hooked on there product.....

Obviously.... This is another deliberate strategy.... and that's my point.... drug-dealer marketing tactics are not appealing

if you have one of the production packages.......

This again is all about avoiding users looking for non-Autodesk alternatives when interest or business expands into other areas.

There are quite a few low cost or free products you can get out there that do 5th and 4th axis ok.....

Perhaps you could post a list... or the Google search parameters you used to find them.... I'm sure other in the thread would also be interested....

In respect of certain applications 'never' going away.... I think this is quite a big generalization.... If Autodesk want the technology... or to gain control of the software.. they just make it their business to aqquire it - they have the weight to take anything they might want. I've posted a short list of some of Autodesk's aqquistions over the years. There are MANY more....

Hope this Helps

October 16, 1992, Autodesk acquired Micro Engineering Solutions (MES) Inc., a leading developer and marketer of manufacturing CAD / CAM
May 6, 1998, Autodesk acquired assets of Genius CAD-Software GmbH
March 16, 1999, Autodesk acquired Discreet Logic Inc.
February 24, 2004, Autodesk acquired MechSoft, Inc
January 10, 2006, Autodesk acquired Alias, with its automotive styling and digital content creation applications such as FBX file format - $197 million USD
August 6, 2007, Autodesk announced the acquisition of Skymatter Inc, developer of Mudbox.
May 7, 2008, Autodesk also announced the acquisition of REALVIZ flagship products are "Stitcher" and "ImageModeler"
October 23, 2008, Autodesk announced the acquisition on Avid's Softimage, Co. - $35 million USD
August 1, 2011, Autodesk announced the acquisition of Instructables website and platform
May 18, 2013, TinkerCAD announced it had been bought by Autodesk.
February 6, 2014, Autodesk completed the acquisition of Delcam, a UK based supplier of advanced CAD/CAM - $286 million

[ihavenofish]

i keep looking back at the date of this thread to make sure im not in 2005.... :x

gmax has been dead for 11 years. the cnctoolkit is neat, and i liked using it back when the other cam available to me was a bit clumsy, but, now we have fusion, which is not only a million times more useful then gmax, it integrates hsm works (add that to your buyout list) which is one of the best cam packages available.

the fusion 360 info here has been confusing (kept checking the date agian, haha). as of now, there is one version, its $300 a year, and it has all the features listed on the website. its also available free under various conditions - like hobbiests. the "free" license can be renewed every year until adesk decide they need your money :P

the ultimate version at $1200 a year will return. no idea when. or what will be in it. they seem to be feeling out what people want. really fusion is in open beta right now. in the long term, i suspect fusion will be the one tool to rule them all, with several grades of features.

as for 5 axis, they are adding new crap monthly. they seem to be focusing on turning tools lately. they now have mill turn support (eek!). there is currently zero 5 and 4 axis simultaneous support, last i read they were saving that for the next "ultimate" version. it doesnt show me any 3+2 features either (unless im missing something) - meaning you dont get 3+2 in the conventional machine tool sense, but instead 3 cam programmed linear + 2 manually indexed rotary axes. 3+2 in a normal cnc control means ANY 3 axes at once, which actually covers 99% of all 5 axis machining.

[daniellyall]

the +1 and +2 is index only by machine or hand

[dmauch]

Gmax is a 5 axis program by itself. Only with the cnctoolkit can do 5 axis but the toolkit hasn't been updated in the past year.

Dan

[yohudi]

i keep looking back at the date of this thread to make sure im not in 2005.... :x

gmax has been dead for 11 years. the cnctoolkit is neat.....

gmax has been 'unsupported' by Discreet for 11 years but this does not equate to 'death'... If you have sufficient experience of Autodesk 3D Studio / gmax modelling features and functions, it's immediately apparent that 3DS MAX / gmax / Fusion use the same well-established parametric methods.... I've identified some of the more obvious similarities below....

Primitive shape, object, parametric modelling / modification functions in 3DS MAX / gmax / VIZ / Fusion correspond across the board.
Patch modelling (called Sculpting in Fusion) is also present in 3DS MAX / gmax and functions in similar fashion (this has seen some update in Fusion as compared to gmax).
Animation, hierachical tools, forward and inverse kinematics functions (called Assembly in Fusion) are similarly based on tried and tested 3DS MAX / gmax features / functions.
2D Shape (Fusion Sketches) to 3D object (Lofting) functions are presented a little differently, but operate in much the same way as 3DS MAX / gmax / VIZ .

Autodesk has a long history of re-using tried and tested features, from it's stable of applications, throughout a wide range of software. Fusion is no exception. They don't re-invent the wheel everytime they come up with a new bit of software... Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply unaware of the facts.

The main differences between 3DS MAX / gmax and Fusion modelling is the way the task is presented in the GUI. Some of it's quite interesting... and could be applied to methods of working in 3DS MAX / gmax..

There are 3 additional areas of work in Fusion that are not present in in 3DS MAX / gmax. These are Drawings generation, Simulation and CAM. For the hobbyist, I would suggest that CAM is the only one of any importance. I've cut a lot of wood parts and objects over the years... I've never found it essential to perform stress-analysis or to generate a drawing from my modelled objects... have you ??

Simultaneous 5 axis CAM functions, can be added to 3DS MAX / gmax by cnc_toolkit. I do not suggest the existing cnc_toolkit workflow is anything akin to HSM. Far more awareness, planning and manual toolpath design are required when using the current version of cnc_toolkit.

I am working on a derivative application, that will automate the cnc_toolkit workflow. I started with the difficult stuff... Freeform simultaneous 5-axis XYZAC.... it works well... development work and cutting of the results can be viewed at the link below.... I've added new toolpath types.. and new machine configurations... I'm automating work required to produce mechanical parts... should be finished shortly....

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...bYH0wkxKSCErKp

So in reality gmax is far from dead... I could care less about how old it is.... I'm 55 and I still work just fine.... 3DS MAX / gmax and the current version of cnc_toolkit, as seen in the linked playlist above, sucessfully generates toolpaths and gcode that Fusion 360 (Standard or Ultimate) cannot.. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is blind to the facts. I do my best only to deal in facts...

Hope this helps

Danny

[chuckorlando]

I would disagree that the CAM is all that a hobby guy needs.

IMO CAD is one of two keys to creating dreams. The other is CAM.

A machinist can only make what others draw and the designer just has picture with out a machinist. (Over simplified)

Besides, when you draw it, cam knows what features you built.

I do not use F360. I use solidworks and hsmworks. I assume this is where they got the whole concept from.

[yohudi]

I would disagree that the CAM is all that a hobby guy needs.

IMO CAD is one of two keys to creating dreams. The other is CAM.

My post didn't say that CAM was all the hobbyist needed.

It said.... that of the three things that Fusion has, and gmax doesn't have... CAM is the only really important one... and that this could be addressed by using cnc_toolkit.

gmax has CAD style design features, similar to AutoCAD, 3DS MAX, Fusion and a whole host of other applications.

Hope this helps

Danny

[chuckorlando]

My apologies. I misread that.

[yohudi]

My apologies. I misread that.

No problem.... I could have made it clearer..

TTFN

Danny

[daniellyall]

why would the average user use 3DS MAX or gmax it's a gaming, 3D, rendering program. 3DS MAX is a hell of a lot more expensive than Fusion. gmax is dead and a rendering, 3D, gaming program.

fusion can do all most everything gmax can do, why not just move on and do stuff with fusion

[yohudi]

why would the average user use 3DS MAX or gmax it's a gaming, 3D, rendering program........

fusion can do all most everything gmax can do, why not just move on and do stuff with fusion

Hi there,

It's clear from your comment that like many other CNC users, you have only superficial knowledge of the development path of this branch of Autodesk software....

3DS MAX was originally a flagship Discreet logic product. It's brief was and always has been 3D design.. be that for architecture, mechanics, animation, special effects, or game content. As a result of having such a broad brief.. it's imbued with a set of features and functions that, in fact, go way beyond anything available in Fusion... This is one of the reasons for it's high price....

In the early 90's Discreet were competing with other companys to place 3D Studio MAX as the de facto standard for game content creation.... there was one small problem... Many of the gaming community demand the ability to make thier own 'MOD's to add to longevity and expand games. If they can't do this, support for the game suffers... As gamers, they could never afford the hefty price of 3D Studio MAX.... so what to do ??

What was done ( circa 3D Studio MAX v4 ) was to provide the gaming community with gmax... for FREE !!!. There were some save restrictions applied, and the high-quality rendering features were removed... but other than that... the modelling features of 3D Studio MAX (circaV4) were untouched.... The ability to add user-scripted tools was also untouched... Over course of time, a long time.... additional scripted tools emerged for 3D Studio MAX.. many of which work perfectly in gmax.... including cnc_toolkit.... Methods were also devised to work around gmax save restrictions....

So at this point in time after Discreet were acquired by Autodesk... and 3D Studio MAX became a flagship, high-dollar Autodesk product, gmax is still available for FREE... and it runs cnc_toolkit no problem.... If I want to actually perform simultaneous 5 axis cuts... without paying hideous prices.. the gmax / cnc_toolkit option remains the only viable option... unless as you suggested in an earlier post.. you know of other FREE applications that are equally capable....

As I stated in an earlier post... cnc_toolkit is not HSM.. you need to learn how to design and build appropriate path shapes using 3D Studio MAX style functions.... some people struggle with this.... and this is what Fusion is all about.... Unfortunately 'almost' does not run a CNC machine. I want to be able to design, program and run simultaneous 5-axis.. in all configurations... not dream about it.... therefore I cannot 'just move on and do stuff with Fusion'.

In respect of trunnion use... a cnc_toolkit update that Dan is aware of added the ability to post-process toolpaths for A/C Trunnion. I tested it... and posted examples of what worked and what didn't. I included example scene files and gcode, so I think I tried to help trunnion users out as much as I could at the time..... Anyone who intends to learn Simultaneous 5 -axis CAD / CAM needs to knuckle-down and learn what they need to know / do to get their configuration to work.... this is the case regardless of the software tool you prefer / use...

Hope this helps

Danny