[CuttersCov]

Hi all,

Need some opinions here. I am going to be setting up a home based machine shop and have a few questions:

1. Is Grizzly a reputable enough company that I can trust their lathes and mills to give a quality product? I know I can trust Bridgeport for mills. Is there someone similar for lathes?

2. At this point in time I'm more concerned with a quality lathe and mill, and not so much with precision tools, surface plate, micrometer, etc. Should I reajust my thinking so that each of those categories gets the same amount of quality? Who sells quality measuring equipment?

3. Is anyone else doing this and can you give me a run down on how you got started?

Thanks,

Matt

[cncwhiz]

Matt,
Do you have to have new equiptement and what is your time frame to be up and running? Auctions might give you a good bang for your buck as well as ebay to get most of what you need. If I were buying a lathe I would go with LaBlond.

[surface]

As the proprietor of a non-home based machine shop, my advice will vary depending upon what you feel constitutes a "home based machine shop"? If your intention is to start a machine shop in your home, which will be able to compete with mine, than you must be able to produce quality parts. Believe it or not, many home-based shops can underbid a full sized machine shop because they do not have the overhead. If that is your intention, then the foundation must begin with a quality machine tool. On the other hand if it is your intention to become a hobbyist who can do some light milling and a little lathe work on the weekend, then versatile albeit poor quality tools would be preferable over quality.

[Gunner]

Just some thoughts to throw at you.....

Home based / Hobby,etc... I would still go with the highest quality I could afford within my budget. This not only helps if you take on a challenging job but also if you decide after a while that the home based business is not for you. A higher quality item will fetch a better price on a resale. If you do stay in the business and it starts to become profitable you will probably want to upgrade your equipment at some time. You will also receive a better trade in for a quality machine or again you can sell outright.

There are also hidden savings in quality machines. They are usually more rigid with higher quality spindles and smoother movement. This results in improved accuracy, surface finish, and tool life. All three could be the difference in a profitable venture.

[CuttersCov]

Thank you for your thoughts guys.

Ok here's some more info--
Time frame to up and running isn't at the top of my list. Since this is a hobby I still have that learning curve that I have to get through. But I would eventually like to move into this full-time with a regular store front type shop.

Producing quality parts right now is where I have questions. What constitutues a good machine? I don't know enough to be able to evaluate one yet just by looking at it. I mentioned bridgeport because from what I have read and heard that I don't have to worry about the quality of their product because everyone seems to swear by them.

Surface, I'm curious how did you start out. Bank loan and large background in machining, did you start in the garage and go from there. There are tons of books on opening your own _______ business, EXCEPT machining business. I suppose that I could go out and interview owners, but to me it just doesn't sound right to ask, "I want to open a machine shop to compete with you how do I do it?"


Thanks,

Matt

[gus]

IMHO grizzly etc are not macghines to make money with. Find a good older machine in the size you are looking for. they will frequently come tooled saving a lot of money.

A trick a machine tool dealer showed me that extended my search for my first lathe: measure the back[flat] way right at chuck level[4 to 8 inches form left end of ways] and all the way at the far end of the ways. Hold out until you find one that is within a few tenths. Clean carefully first top and bottom. Noticeable wear on the backside of the front triangular way is a no no. Also big machines can be cheap cause no one can move them.

I am very fond of my WWII Monarchs, a 12CK and a 10EE. I bought the 12CK 14 years ago, and got a lot of satisfaction cleaning it up and dialing it in. It is a 12x36 adn weighs about 6000 lbs!!. It cost me 1800 bucks back then, untooled and needing a bit of detailing. The EE is just the finest lathe ever made, cost me 3500 about 8 years ago, tooled, has needed nothing since. Think you can still buy em new, last I heard about 70 grand.....

[Swede]

Wow you have bitten off a big task. There are so many issues to address. The big one here is that it appears you want to ultimately make money. I'm going to ramble a bit, remember this is all opinion and possibly devoid of any reasonable judgement!

Mills: I think every shop needs and can make use of a BP or clone manual mill. I'd start with a Vari-speed BP, R8 spindle, and a DRO. Tool up from there, R8 tooling is common and relatively cheap. Some may recommend a slightly bigger mill with a CAT spindle; this isn't bad if you can afford it, the tooling will be more expensive but ultimately the quick tool swap and higher HP will remove more metal, faster, and that = $$. Keep power requirements in mind. If in a home shop, then 240V 1phase will be normal, and you'll have to convert to 3phase. In other words, don't buy a 20 HP 440V machine! 3 to 5 HP 220V is easy to deal with in a home. Equip with a DRO, at least 0.0005" resolution, you won't be sorry. Absolute minimum tooling is a set of R8 collets of decent heritage (Lyndex, Royal), drills and cutters (again best if higher quality), a good face mill, boring head, a set of thin parallels, and a good Kurt-style vise. That'll do for now with the mill. Ultimately you'll want a dividing head, rotary table, spacers, spin-jigs, and other, less-used tooling.

Lathes: Big question, will you be turning big or little? I ask because if you are going to turn 3" axles of 4340, you'll probably want a bigger 13" or 14" gear-head lathe with a cam-lock spindle. Maybe a bigger LeBlond, Clausing, Monarch, or best of all a Pratt & Whitney! If you anticipate working smaller, high-precision turnings, consider a Hardinge HLV, Monarch 10EE, or other "tool room" lathes. The moniker "tool room" generally implies a lathe of lower HP, less capacity and ability to hog, but ultimately one of great accuracy and one capable of high-finishes. If you expect to be doing mostly "one offs", not 200+ pieces, I think a 10" to 12" tool-room machine will be easier and ultimately a better choice. Tooling - Aloris-type wedge toolpost, plenty of holders, good indexible bits, blank HSS bits and a grinder; good Jacobs/Rohm/Albrecht chuck for the tailstock. One or two live centers, one heavy, the other lighter with a skinnier tip for access to small work at the end. 5C or other collet capability in the headstock a huge plus. Collets are great. You'll need at least one 3/6 jaw, one 4 jaw chuck. Best 3/6 jaw chucks are Buck-style adjust-tru. Bison makes a great adjust-tru clone at a good price. DRO VERY nice but not as important as one for the mill.

Measuring tools: Quality will pay here. 1 quality caliper in 6" (Starrett/Mitutoyo/Fowler), 1 or 3 ea. 6" chinese beater LCD calipers. One digital mike capable of 0.0001" or better resolution. Several mechanical-digital mikes up to 4" or so. 2 or 3 angle irons, different sizes. A set of 1-2-3 blocks. A set of V-blocks. Granite Surface plates are more useful than one might think initially. I'm sure I've forgotten a bunch of stuff, but that'll get you going!

I always enjoy the "I'm going to start from scratch" questions. We get to equip a shop vicariously! Good luck.

[ViperTX]

Rather then just names of iron...you should be looking at the tolerances required for those objects which you will get orders for. Once you know the tolerances then you'll want to research and learn how to test those various parameters on a lathe and mill.

So, you'll most likely end up with things like lathe test bars, indicators (0.00005 and 0.0001), holders for the indicators when checking a mill and a lathe.

I've had interesting conversations with Grizzly about their lathes and TIR (total indicated runout) seems that none of their lathes except the Hardinge look-a-like have a TIR of better then 0.001...most are worse.

[oskars]

It is very interesting to read that somebody would like to start from zero :-) I left my job and I started from zero 1.5 years ago with moulds for plastic industry in mind! :-) I still now can't produce moulds... and probably I never will produce them.
I made a lot of mistekes and therefore I would like to share my "expensive" expierience with you.
It is not my advise, just my opinion about thinks "from zero"!
Here is some points what is important (at least from my point of view):
0. Don't hurry!
1. You MUST have CLEAR vision about products what you will produce or service what you will provide. Buy nothing unless you will know what are you going to do! Otherwise it will cost you a lot of $$$. Remember - good tool cost a lot of money!
Here is working formula: more time you invest in point N#1 - less expenses later!
2. You must read all books what you can find about metalworking ... metals, metal properties, difference between metals, heat treatment, tool grinding, tools, working speeds, etc. Learn working techniques- one task can be made in different ways! (I am not speeking about 20 pages newspapers "how to mill ..." etc.) Discuss with professionals, don't hesitate to ask questions: no question->no answer! Find friends between them - for you it is more than Gold (specially tool makers with practice more than 20 years, their head is like National library)!
3. Premises. You must have clear vision about them: what you have now and what you will do when your business will grow
4. Electricity. What kind of electricity do you have (bigger mills and lathes will use 3 phases and you can't feed 10-20kw lathe or mill with 1->3 phase converter).
5. Also note, if you are going to compete with other professionals lathe and mill is only beginning :-) But that is for shure that main workbench is lathe and then mill.
6. Lathe & mill. It will be clear for you what kind of lathe and mill to buy when you will answer to yourself on point 1. With mills and lathes like Tige you can produce only small(!) parts and your market will be very limited. Again, it depend on your market and target product, maybe Tige is more than enough!

All for now!
Success in your business!

Regards,
Oscar

p.s. I think that for you very important is point N#1, other will follow!

[CuttersCov]

Thanks for the info guys. Well I have been doing some thinking and it looks like the dead line for this got extended and that I'm going to start slower than I had expected, which is fine.

Oscar, you're right more research is less money. So going to do lots more research.

Viper, basing a machine on it's accuracy vs. name is probably the number rule for purchasing this equipment. I'll have to do some research into that too.

Swede, I had a feeling that granite surface plates were much more important than I initially thought. Got any websites that sell quality plates? My only experience here is Grizzly and they had grade shop "b".

Mill or lathe, is like the chicken or the egg. It seems to be more realistic that I should be starting smaller than I thought, begin with quality measuring instruments and one small high quality lathe and go from there.

Let me add I am taking a class at college in machining and ask more questions about the "shop" than most of my classmates. My teacher knows I want more out of this than just a grade. And with your guys' help I can ask better and more important questions. We do have access to the machines when not in class, so I'll start using that to my advantage.



One more question, how do you guys feel about the industry as a whole, are people going more towards cnc machines? CAD etc. is important but can manual driven machines beat the quality of a cnc? I'm guessing people can't beat the quantity of cnc, but this isn't about quantity it's about quality.

Thanks,

Matt

[gus]

When I started my shop I had a 6 inch atlas lathe[!] a 9x32 bridgeport j head, a cast iron surface plate, 6 inch calipers and 1 inch mics.
I bouhgt a 'real' lathe and tooled it

Start your business by having cards printed.

Everything else will follow.


Keep working a 'straight' job as long as you can. you will need the money.

Remember that as you get work, it will pay for more equipment


I have 4 cnc mills and a vmc, 2 lathes and tons of secondary equipment. Only the VMC is not paid for. I have not taken a paycheck from anyone but myself since 1992.

Go for it