[newton235]

I'm looking for a "garage sized" cnc mill. I have a manual mill now.

Points of comparison that I'm trying to get information on, or am a bit unsure.
- As much Y travel, spindle to column as possible.
- ATC (So tired of changing R8 Tools), want a real one, not one of those table racks.
- Part locating tool in the atc (wireless?), Auto tool height
- Right angle attachment?
- Tapping?
- 4th axis?
- Spindle options (BT / CAT ?)

What I like about the Torus Pro: Y travel, Servos

For spindle to column, should I assume 1/2 of Y travel?

Novakon doesn't seem to have an ATC, although I did see this: NM200 ATC All Tool Test - YouTube but couldn't find it on their website. I did find the power drawbar, and the tooling for ATC, although it looks like TTS. Was hoping for something like BT30.

Both offer a BT30 spindle (talked to Khai about this via email), which is nice, but does either actually work like a standard bt spindle (pull stud). Will this work with the ATC (if it exists). I've emailed Khai about this, but haven't heard back. Yes, I'm impatient

I don't see much from Novakon on the auto tool height and part location, whereas i do from tormach, although it seems to be wired (which would probably be ok). Maybe this is usually just a third party purchase?

Not a clue on the right angle attachment. I have one for my current mill, and I do use it, and would like to continue doing the same operation on the new cnc. I can't see how this will work with an atc / pdb at all, maybe i'm just out of luck?

I'm guessing both do rigid tapping, so i don't think that's an issue
Both seem to do 4th axis, so if i need it in the future I know it's there

If anyone has any of the missing info, or can confirm any of my assumptions, I would appreciate it.

[keithmcelhinney]

Tool changer is in development. Supposed to be around same price as tormach with 2 more slots. The pro and the tormach will not do rigid tapping (Pulsar does). I have not seen a right angle attachment for either. Not sure on your other questions...

-Keith

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I'm looking for a "garage sized" cnc mill. I have a manual mill now.

Points of comparison that I'm trying to get information on, or am a bit unsure.
- As much Y travel, spindle to column as possible.
- ATC (So tired of changing R8 Tools), want a real one, not one of those table racks.
- Part locating tool in the atc (wireless?), Auto tool height
- Right angle attachment?
- Tapping?
- 4th axis?
- Spindle options (BT / CAT ?)

What I like about the Torus Pro: Y travel, Servos

For spindle to column, should I assume 1/2 of Y travel?

That is at least approximately correct. If it's important, I can measure mine.

Novakon doesn't seem to have an ATC, although I did see this: NM200 ATC All Tool Test - YouTube but couldn't find it on their website. I did find the power drawbar, and the tooling for ATC, although it looks like TTS. Was hoping for something like BT30.

An ATC is in the works. I know, because I'm designing and building it for them. I also designed and build their PDB, which is going into production in the next few weeks. I can tell you there is little real functional advantage to 30-taper on a machine of this size. TTS, with a proper PDB (which means it is NOT dependent on Belleville springs to create drawbar tension), is capable of handling anything the machine is capable of throwing at it. And, TTS is a LOT cheaper. The ATC is being designed to be easily switched over to 30-taper when/if a 30-taper spindle becomes available.

Both offer a BT30 spindle (talked to Khai about this via email), which is nice, but does either actually work like a standard bt spindle (pull stud). Will this work with the ATC (if it exists). I've emailed Khai about this, but haven't heard back. Yes, I'm impatient

Switching from TTS to 30-taper is non-trivial, and, for now, there is nowhere near enough demand to justify the effort of supporting it with either the PDB or ATC. Once the PDB and ATC are out there, demand patterns may well change, and make that a worthwhile thing to offer. Again, where's the advantage? Why do you think BT30 is an improvement?

I don't see much from Novakon on the auto tool height and part location, whereas i do from tormach, although it seems to be wired (which would probably be ok). Maybe this is usually just a third party purchase?

This is something that is very hard to provide as a "generic" function. Your best bet, by FAR, is to use MachStdMill. Although, the ATC will support auto tool measuring, but probably not in the first release.

Not a clue on the right angle attachment. I have one for my current mill, and I do use it, and would like to continue doing the same operation on the new cnc. I can't see how this will work with an atc / pdb at all, maybe i'm just out of luck?

I've never seen a right angle attachment for anything but a Bridgeport, and there is absolutely ZERO chance of one working with any ATC.

I'm guessing both do rigid tapping, so i don't think that's an issue
Both seem to do 4th axis, so if i need it in the future I know it's there

No. Rigid tapping requires a servo spindle, which neither Tormach nor the Torus Pro has. The Torus and Pulsar both have it. You can do thread-milling, and you can use a tapping head.

If anyone has any of the missing info, or can confirm any of my assumptions, I would appreciate it.[/QUOTE]

[newton235]

That is at least approximately correct. If it's important, I can measure mine.

It is important to some degree. I know that currently i have about 7" (little less i think). If i had another 1/4-1/2", i could do this one part in one shot, no flip. Now, that's not really a big deal, normally i don't run that part anyway, I have it done at a machine shop on a big fadal.

Again, where's the advantage? Why do you think BT30 is an improvement?

The advantage is probably zero for most people. I just happen to have a source for a stockpile of 30 taper tool holders and who knows what else that I could probably get for next to nothing. I was just wondering.

This is something that is very hard to provide as a "generic" function. Your best bet, by FAR, is to use MachStdMill. Although, the ATC will support auto tool measuring, but probably not in the first release.

That's understandable. I just remember reading something about a probe that was wireless, and I assumed that functionality was for use with ATC's, granted, it may have been for a 100k machine, but I thought it would be very useful. I have however seen those little hockey puck looking things on cnc machines that the tool will touch off on and the machine will get the correct length somehow. I'm pretty sure tormach has one. Yup: Electronic Tool Setter and it works with the atc.

I've never seen a right angle attachment for anything but a Bridgeport, and there is absolutely ZERO chance of one working with any ATC.

Here ya go. Kodiak Tooling Solutions Featuring Dorian Tools. Dorian 90° Adjust. Angle Head 4000 RPM CAT40 Attachment, ER16 Clt from Kodiak Not sure about atc compatibility, but i'm guessing no. The big boys are waaay out of my price range though. I'll either have to do those on the manual, or i need something with about 13" clearance on the z to stand the part up and get them, which i don't think either has (def not torus pro).

No. Rigid tapping requires a servo spindle, which neither Tormach nor the Torus Pro has. The Torus and Pulsar both have it. You can do thread-milling, and you can use a tapping head.

Yeah, i've got an r8 tapping head, it sort of works most of the time. I just thought it would be nice to have a tool in the atc to take care of the tapping while it was on the machine.

[Novakon]

All information provided looks very accurate. The only thing we can add is the spindle height drawing below.

Additional information is provided as follows that might help:

Basic Torus PRO specs: Torus PRO

Torus PRO manual has much additional information: Torus PRO manual

Since we don't know your approximate location, we have demo viewing centers listed as follows: Demo Centers

We also have a new demo center located addition in Metuchen, NJ. If you live near this city, we can provide you the connection the the center owner until the list is updated.

We hope this helps in your information gathering stage.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[kstrauss]

You wrote: "...with a proper PDB (which means it is NOT dependent on Belleville springs to create drawbar tension)". How does the PDB that you are developing create drawbar tension?

[SCzEngrgGroup]

You wrote: "...with a proper PDB (which means it is NOT dependent on Belleville springs to create drawbar tension)". How does the PDB that you are developing create drawbar tension?

By actually torquing the drawbar to 30 ft-lbs, which generates FAR more drawbar tension than any Belleville drawbar can muster. Even Tormach PDB owners often complain about pull-out with the Tormach PDB when they try to get aggressive. I have *never* experienced pullout, even doing the most aggressive milling my Torus Pro is capable of (and the Torus Pro is a bit of a "brute").

Attachment 198112

Regards,
Ray L.

[rayoung]

The ATC you found the video of is the one I built for myself. One of the drawbacks I have found with it is tool clearance when working on the right end of the table if I have long tools in the carousel. The one being developed for Novakon eliminates this issue by positioning the carousel beside the column and using an arm to change tools. Wish I had thought of it.

Ray

[kstrauss]

I assume that friction will somewhat reduce the actual tension in the drawbar but I have no idea of the extent of the reduction. What is your estimate of the drawbar tension that you typically achieve?

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I assume that friction will somewhat reduce the actual tension in the drawbar but I have no idea of the extent of the reduction. What is your estimate of the drawbar tension that you typically achieve?

I don't have equipment to measure drawbar tension, but my guess would be upwards of 4000 pounds. I go by tool retention, rather than drawbar tension. I measured how much torque it took to cause the tool holder to slip, and took that well above the machine spindles capability. Tormach determined in the development of their PDB that on the order of 2500 pounds drawbar tension was necessary to achieve the maximum retention of a TTS holder. My own (crude) testing confirmed that, also established that this was the equivalent of about 20 ft-lbs on the drawbar. The Tormach PDB is designed to deliver 2500#, though it appears to often fail to deliver that in the real world.

There are other advantages to the Novakon PDB design as well: It is downright *tiny* compared to any pneumatically-operated Belleville design, and it handles R8 tools just as easily as TTS tools. Any Belleville drawbar will require manually removing and installing R8 tools, and you'll then have to re-calibrate the Belleville tension to get it working right again with TTS tools. Then there's the "free" true spindle RPM display on the Novakon PDB...

Regards,
Ray L.

[kstrauss]

Thanks for the additional info. It is hard to see from the photo but does your PDB use an electric motor and planetary gear train to torque the drawbar? A pneumatic cylinder to engage the screw?

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Thanks for the additional info. It is hard to see from the photo but does your PDB use an electric motor and planetary gear train to torque the drawbar? A pneumatic cylinder to engage the screw?

That is correct. And lots of firmware to make it reliable, and bullet-proof.

Regards,
Ray L.

[kstrauss]

Building the mechanical stuff is the easy part! Thanks again for the info.

[Hirudin]

Belleville washers can create just as much tension as you want. If you aren't getting enough holding force you can just add more washers. I agree that the SCzEngrgGroup PDB looks like a great unit, but let's not forget that it's basically unproven at this point. Also, although some people have surely experienced pullout with the Tormach PDB we shouldn't forget it has also surely been perfectly adequate for many people as well.

Also, the size of the power draw bar unit is largely inconsequential. A PDB for a Torus Pro needs to be small, but being small isn't really that important. Tormach could say their PDB is very simple. Both claims are true, but small size and simplicity aren't inherently superior to things larger or more complicated.

I don't want to start a big thing here, but if a representative from Tormach came into this thread and said "our PDB is the best thing ever" I would hope people would take that claim with a big grain of salt as well.

A big advantage of the SCzEngrgGroup PDB over Tormach's PDB is its ability to change R8 tools with apparent ease. The RPM display and safety features also add some real value.

As a mostly unbiased user (I own a Torus Pro but I have never even seen a Tormach in person) it appears that Tormach has an edge when it comes to proprietary add-ons. If you want a little gadget to go with the mill they probably sell it and it'll apparently be easy to hook up. They also have more users as far as I can tell. Their current flagship machine has been around longer too. These will factor into how easy it'll be to get help without contacting the company. Of course, the majority of their add-ons are available elsewhere and are also compatible with other machines. Their TTS tool holders are not unique by any means and theirs have the highest price of any that I have seen.

Novakon's machines have the advantages of work envelope, speed, and price. They're also much less locked down from what I can tell. If you want to tinker with your machine you might find that you'll have an easier time with a Novakon machine. I might be wrong here (like I said, I haven't even seen a Tormach in person) but I don't believe the Tormach has any available inputs or outputs on their break out board (BOB). Hooking up a non-standard accessory may prove difficult.

I would liken Tormach to iOS and Novakon to Android.

[keithmcelhinney]

I was originally going to go with Tormach for my new machine. The things that swayed me back to Novakon are: work cube,PDB (and toolchanger), and the fact that the forums have a lot more support now. It seems like more excited people have been involved lately. I still believe that the Tormach is a great machine and has more add-ons, but you can cut bigger stuff on the Novakon.

I would love to see Novakon put out some more little add-ons that have foolproof installs like Tormach. Active probes, cnc scanning, etc. The probe you can get done yourself, but just the comfort of having everything made specifically for the mill you own is great.

-Keith

[MRM RCModels]

All information provided looks very accurate. The only thing we can add is the spindle height drawing below.

Additional information is provided as follows that might help:

Basic Torus PRO specs: Torus PRO



Torus PRO manual has much additional information: Torus PRO manual

Since we don't know your approximate location, we have demo viewing centers listed as follows: Demo Centers

We also have a new demo center located addition in Metuchen, NJ. If you live near this city, we can provide you the connection the the center owner until the list is updated.

We hope this helps in your information gathering stage.

Regards,
Novakon Team

Nice job on the manual!

[MRM RCModels]

I would liken Tormach to iOS and Novakon to Android.

This is exactly how I've been explaining it to my friends.

[ram48]

Newton
Search threads started by Igak on here. He cut a large tool rack on the nm200 with one set up That will answer all your questions about X and Y axis

[Novakon]

I would love to see Novakon put out some more little add-ons that have foolproof installs like Tormach. Active probes, cnc scanning, etc. The probe you can get done yourself, but just the comfort of having everything made specifically for the mill you own is great.

-Keith

There are many accessories on the drawing board that will be release very soon, We believe all will be pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Novakon Team

[MichaelHenry]

Novakon's machines have the advantages of work envelope, speed, and price. They're also much less locked down from what I can tell. If you want to tinker with your machine you might find that you'll have an easier time with a Novakon machine. I might be wrong here (like I said, I haven't even seen a Tormach in person) but I don't believe the Tormach has any available inputs or outputs on their break out board (BOB). Hooking up a non-standard accessory may prove difficult.

Tormach will give you access to an unlocked copy of the config file if you sign and return a waiver. That makes it a lot easier to tweak things and add you own hardware.

Mike