[duraflap]

I've been looking at the PlasmaCam, TorchMate and the Tracker Plasma machines.
Anyone own and or use one of these. I'd like to hear your feedback on cutting quality and factory support of these machines.
I'm needing to cut #8 finish Stainless Steel parts.

Tell me what you think
Dennis
[email protected]

[jimcolt]

I have an early version (around 8 years old) PlasmaCam...it is used sporadically for all materials from gauge to 1-1/4" thick...it has a Hypertherm Powermax1000. I have been very happy with the performance of this machine....the software is particularly easy to learn....and importing .dxf files are a breeze. My machine has their old technology torch height control...basically a controlled drag type height control.....the newest PlasmaCam machines have arc voltage height control with an advanced initial height sensor. A few years back I had a control box fail....it was replaced with a rebuilt one with a trade in price...other than that just a few drive belts have failed.....easy to replace.

I would not hesitate to buy from them again.

Jim Colt

[duraflap]

Thank you Jim for your thoughts. Have you ever cut #8 finish Stainless Steel?
That will be the majority of my needs.
Dennis

[jimcolt]

I'm not sure exactly what #8 finish ss is....is the 8 a finish spec or a thickness?

The Hyperthem air plasma systems cut gauge to about 3/16 stainless very well using the FineCut consumables...there is a bit of discoloration...just on the cut edge due to oxides from the oxygen content in the cutting and ambient air....but quite good cuts with minimal warpage as long as you can keep the cutting speed as high as possible. Above 3/16" thick...the cut quality on stainless still is fairly good....but the edge gets darker...and generally would need a secondary operation (grinding or wire brushing) to get rid of the oxidation.

When stainless is cut with plasma it is strictly a thermal (melting) process as compared to cutting steel....which combines exothermic effects of oxygen (air is approx. 20% oxygen) with the thermal effects of plasma. Because of this...edge squareness will be better on steel as compared to stainless. Expect more bevel on stainless edges as the arc trails approx. 15 to 30 degrees...

There are idustrial (expensive) plasmas that cut stainless using other gas combinations...with better results. I would suggest getting cut samples from the plasma manufacturers to see if the cut quality meeds your needs.

Jim

[duraflap]

Hi Jim
#8 finish is the grade of SS that is Mirror quality. It really is a mirror, brighter than chrome and of course rust proof as it is SS. I cut thousands of pieces of this material via an outside vendor for my mudflap weights with laser each year and I'm hoping to bring this service into my shop on a smaller budget than the cost of a waterjet or laser.
You can see examples of our products on our website at
www.duraflap.com if you are interested.

But you are happy with the Plasma Cam? What about their support? Are they easy to reach and do they give you satisfaction?
Dennis

[jimcolt]

As far as what I call hobby class machines...machines in the under $15K price range...I think the PlasmaCam is as good as any. In the earlier years they were known for their minimalistic warranty...those that were technically savvy and could maintain the machines...and also understood the whole cnc / plasma process were very happy. Those that bought the machine and expected no smoke, perfect cuts and no problems were not happy. In recent years...PlasmaCam seems to have stepped up to the plate by improving their warranty and technical support...and also has added arc voltage torch eigt control with ohmic plate sensing for initial height sensing...which is key to longer consumable life and better cut quality. I like the looks of their new 5 x 10 Samson machine. I believe that they have the easiest complete CAD/CAM software package for beginners.....and it very easily imports .dxf files form just about any drawing package....then you use the PlasmaCam software to post process your drawings with lead ins, kerf compensation and manual or geometric nesting of the parts. Tha machine uses their own proprietary control box...that plugs into a serial output from your PC....x and y axis are dc servos.....I'm not sure what they currently use to control the z axis....mu older machine has a small ac "pancake" motor.

When I call these machines "hobby class"...it is mostly due to the fact that they have relatively lightweight construction...relativelysmall drive motors...are only designed to carry 1 tool (torch) at a time....where an "Industrial class" machine would be constructed more like a machine tool....with much more power (acceleration, heavier payload capacity). Industrial class machines are designed to carry industrial torches...such as Hypertherm's HPR130 or HPR260....which provide dramatically faster cut speeds with better part accuracy and up to 10x longer consumable life. A 5 x 10 Industrial machine with an HPR130 can cost $100,000. If you run machine like this very heavily, 2 shifts a day the $100,000 machine will be more cost effective than the $10,000 machine in less than a year...due to lower operating cost and higher productivity/accuracy.

I have been working with virtually all manufacturers of CNC plasma machines for about 25 years....each machine design has it's advantages. I'm sure this post will raise some questions/objections!

Best regards, Jim Colt

[duraflap]

Thank you Jim
You certainly have a lot more experience than I do about these Plasma machines. I want to look at all the options in the lower cost and probably the Hobbist type of Plasma as I don't have the need for the more industrial types you describe. It would not have the work to pay for itself at this time.
All in all, you have enlightened me and I thank you for your feedback.
I'll probably be contacting you to pick your brain a bit more when I get closer to deciding on which way to go.
Many thanks for now.
Dennis

[duraflap]

How easy is it to convert the Plasma machine to a cnc Router if I wanted a dual purpose machine?
Dennis

[stirling]

I'd doubt if most small plasma machines are rigid/strong enough for routing.

re: choice of machine: I took a long look at some of the vids on youtube (searched simply on cnc plasma). Is it me or is there one machine that just seems to stand head and shoulders way above all the others?

[Torchhead]

How easy is it to convert the Plasma machine to a cnc Router if I wanted a dual purpose machine?
Dennis

It's easier to convert a router to a plasma than vice versa. The reason is that plasma is a non-contact cutting process and the cutting forces are relatively light. Plasma tables typically have light weight gantrys and smaller motors because they don't need to shove a bit through material. Mounting a router to a gantry and slinging it around calls for more torque and less speed. Any gantry flexing results in inaccuracies.

A lot of the plasma tables do not have a full Z axis under control from the PC so are poor candidates for routing even with a dremel tool!

If you think you might need to do something besides plasma cutting make sure the control electronics and control software will support either process. In a machine with MACH changing over to cut with router is just loading another "Profile". Since the THC in MACH is just the Z axis the electronics will use any type of tool on the Z.

The mechanical part of using both is another subject entirely. Change over can be anything from minutes to hours. I saw one table that was longer and setup with a plasma bed on one end and router on the other. They had home s at both ends and just switched cutting heads and moved tot he other end of the table. They could make the table 100% either type with some bed changes.

Tom Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[duraflap]

Thanks Tom
I called Plasma Cam today and found out what you say is very true.
Their software doesn't control a true Z axis but simply will give you one depth move per program. Being propertiety software, I 'll scratch them off my list.
If I build a table, is it possible to build in the speed a plasma needs to cut thinner material and conversly operate at router feed speeds as well when I wish to use the machine for a router in my shop?
Thanks
Dennis

[curlyweld]

DENNIS , THIS IS MY FIRST REPLY BUT FOLLOW THE SITE NOW FOR ABOUT 2 MONTHS. TOMMORROW I SHOULD RECIEVE MY NEW EZ ROUTER PLASMA SET UP. I ORDERED THE 5 BY 5 SETUP FOR PLASMA. THESE TABLES WERE ORIGINALY SET UP FOR ROUTER AND ARE BUILT VERY STOUT. I EVEN ORDERED MINE WITH A NEW ROUTER AND THE EXTRA Z AXIS TO RAISE AND LOWER IT. I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH I WILL USE THE ROUTER ,BUT IT WASN'T THAT MUCH MORE TO HAVE IT ALSO SET UP FOR ROUTING.I BOUGHT EVERYTHING FROM THEM EXCEPT THE TABLE . THEY GIVE ME THE DRAWINGS FOR THE TABLE AND I BUILT MY OWN.SO FAR THEY SEEM TO BE A VERY GOOD CO. WITH NO COMPLAINTS THAT I CAN FIND. TAKE A LOOK AT THEIR WEB SITE AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK--EZ-ROUTER.COM-- GIVE BRANDON A CALL OR EMAIL ,HE IS REAL QUICK WITH RESPONSES AND GIVES NO BUYING PRESSURE WHAT SO EVER.THERE'S MY TWO CENTS,,,GOOD LUCK---CURLY

[Torchhead]

Thanks Tom
I called Plasma Cam today and found out what you say is very true.
Their software doesn't control a true Z axis but simply will give you one depth move per program. Being propertiety software, I 'll scratch them off my list.
If I build a table, is it possible to build in the speed a plasma needs to cut thinner material and conversly operate at router feed speeds as well when I wish to use the machine for a router in my shop?
Thanks
Dennis

Just find yourself a router that has the low end torque for cutting in the 40 to 80 IPM range and has top speeds around 200 to 300 IPM and you will be good to go for plasma. For thin stock you can use smaller tips and lower current and reduce your feedrate to stay in the sub 250 ipm range. Stepper based tables with high rapid rates may have poor resolution and accuracy. Router work requires better accuracy than plasma.

[duraflap]

Thanks Brandon for the offer to view the EZ-Router. www.ez-router.com

It is a very nice machine and I'll be calliing you today with a few questions about motors and such.
Dennis

[duraflap]

Yes Curly EZ-Router is a very nice machine. I'm putting them on my pick list. Let me know when you get your new machine if you will, I'd like to know how the machine performs.
Dennis

[Normsthename]

Hi Dennis (Duraflap)
I have had a look at the parts that you produce, very nice!
I have a couple of questions you might like to ask your Plasma Vendor.

1) How will you finish your parts with regard to the polished Stainless Steel discolouring after the Plasma process?
I have cut normal Stainless, and I can use 'Scotchbrite' to remove the discolouration. But that will scratch the polished stainless finish.
I have not had any chance to cut polished Stainless Steel yet, but it is something that I want to try on my Plasma because I produce motorcycle parts, and some are made from a Polished finish.

2) The Kerf (Cut width) of a Plasma is not as small as a Laser, and the parts you produce are quite intricate. It will cut them but you might lose some detail because of the wider Kerf.

I am new to Plasma cutting myself, only having got my homebuiilt CNC Router converted over to Plasma in the last week or so.
I need to fix a couple of minor teething problems, but apart from that it is working great!
My machine has a working range of 39.5" (1000mm) x 23.5" (600mm) x 5.5" (140mm)
I will be mainly cutting Stainless Steel, most of it is normal 'commercial' grade.

I have a Homebuilt Water Table that cools the Stainless Steel and stops it warping. I think you may need to look into one of these for cutting your Stainless Parts.

As I said previously, my machine was a Router and I converted it so it can also do Plasma.
Changing over from Plasma to Router takes about 15 minutes

Procedure
1) Empty the water tank, and remove the Slats.

2) Remove Water Tank

3) Unplug THC (Torch Height Control)

4) Unbolt and remove Plasma assembly (4 Bolts)

5) Bolt on Router Assembly

6) Plug in 'Touch' Plate for Router

Load Router setup in Mach3 and I am good to go

Hope this helps

Andy

[stirling]

Hi Dennis (Duraflap)
I have had a look at the parts that you produce, very nice!
I have a couple of questions you might like to ask your Plasma Vendor.

1) How will you finish your parts with regard to the polished Stainless Steel discolouring after the Plasma process?
I have cut normal Stainless, and I can use 'Scotchbrite' to remove the discolouration. But that will scratch the polished stainless finish.
I have not had any chance to cut polished Stainless Steel yet, but it is something that I want to try on my Plasma because I produce motorcycle parts, and some are made from a Polished finish.

I'm watching this thread with interest trying to pick up what I can. I'm confused about several things stated here and elsewhere but with regards to cut quality and discolouration in particular, one of the vids I mentioned earlier on youtube shows a sprocket being cut out of what looks like stainless. That cut looks clean, uncoloured in fact darn near PERFECT- almost like it was milled - am I missing something?

[jimcolt]

The only discoloration of stainless steel should be directly on the cut edge....and this discoloration is due to the thermal process (plasma) reacting with the oxygen content in the ambient air.

There are many users of plasma that continuously have discoloration and warping of stainless....because they are not cutting the stainless the way it should be cut. Here are a few tips:

1. Speed. Stainless steel cuts differently than carbon steel because it is a metal that does not easily oxidize. When cutting carbon steel with an air (or an industrial oxygen plasma) plasma you have the benefit of the oxygen content (around 20%) of air creating an exothermic reaction with the steel...similar to oxy-fuel cutting...and this chemical reaction is combined with the high temperature plasma arc to provide a thermal/chemical cut...resulting in excellent cuts with relatively square edges and little dross, assuming the cutting speeed and torch to work distance are maintained accurately. When cutting stainless...you are only using the thermal (30,000 degrees F.) capability of the plasma torch ...effectively a melting process. In order to get the best quality edge with an air plasma....speed has to be maintained very accurately...and typically the speed for best quality on stainless is much higher than than for carbon steel. This higher speed is necessary to minimize the heat affected zone (HAZ)....which eliminates discoloration, warpage and dross....although this higher speed produces a bit more taper on the edge than you would get cutting carbon steel.

2. Torch to work distance. Torch height is very...very critical. I still see people using plasma systems with no height control....maybe just a toggle switch to raise and lower the torch...like is usually done with oxy-fuel cutting. Maintaining the correct torch to work distance affects dross, discoloration, warpage, cut edge taper, HAZ...and consumable life. Typically when cutting thin stainless the torch runs very close to the plate with very low arc voltage...as low as 65 volts as compared to over 110 volts for carbon steel. Typically...inexperienced plasma operators run the torch too far away from the plate....which drmatically affects cut quality.

3. Consumable parts selection. Most plasma manufacturers offer a variety of different consumable parts sets that are designed for cutting at different power levels. For fastest speeds...use higher power settings...and expect less than perfect cut quality. For best cut quality....always use the smallest nozzle orifice that will cut the thickness that you plan to cut. Hypertherm offers FineCut consumables for the Powermax systems that share technology with the industrial High Definition plasmas...these consumables are designed to cut thin materials at higher energy density (more amps per square inch in the arc). These consumables will cut stainless steel with extremely good quality assuming that the cutting machine and height control system have the ability to do their jobs with precision.... maintaining the proper cut speed even on intricate contours...while maintaining the correct torch height accurate to about +- .005".

I get a lot of questions regarding cutting stainless steel with nitrogen. Most air plasma systems can use nitrogen instead of air....however the cut quality on steel will suffer as steel needs oxygen (exothermic reaction).....and on stainless steel...the cut quality will not get noticeable better unless you can remove the ambient air which affects the cut edge. If you can submerge stainless about an inch underwater....and cut it using nitrogen....you will see improved edge quality on stainless steel....as the ambient air does not contact the edge of the plate. There are quite a few users cutting this way...although the manufacturers of most air plasma systems do not suggest cutting underwater with these torches.

There also are a lot of different gas mixture for use on industrial torches that dramatically improve cut quality on stainless. Hypertherm uses a mixture of 95% nitrogen, 5% hydrogen as the plasma gas, with nitrogen as the shield gas for almost laser quality cuts...out of the water...with their HPR130 and HPR260 systems. Another manufacturer, Thermal Dynamics uses a "water mist" as their shield gas that produces similar results.

Sorry for the lengthy reply!

Best regards, Jim Colt