[Len Hoffman]

Hi All. I've been researching adding a cnc vertical mill to my companies line-up for a few months now. To that end I started a thread in the general machines side of this nice site.
If interested here's a link
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...-cnc-mill.html

Yesterday I learned of an RW-15 with a Centurian-7 controller that a nearby shop with 5 Milltronics is interested in selling. It's fully operational and I'm driving over Fri to take a look.

Today I phoned Milltronics to see if they still support this machine and get a sense of how kind they would be to a second owner. Left a message with the service dept. and was pleased and a bit surprised when a fellow named Brian rang right back. He was very nice and said the asking price was great. He said the machines are pretty rugged and there really wasn't a lot to specifically look for as problem areas outside of abuse, other than to make sure the console is in good shape if it has a 10" monitor as the replacement unit runs around $3K. Brian was quite helpful and said if I buzz him back with a serial # he can check the machines service history.

Figured I'd post over here to see if anyone has any feedback and suggestions on what to look for.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[sportybob]

Hi Len, The RW-15 is a nice small travel machine. It has box ways in X,Y &Z. with 25"X, 15" y and about 20" in Z. the tool changers varied depending on the otions, 12 or 16 pocket carosel or a 16 pocket swing arm . The rapids are good at about 800 ipm and you should find this a nice machine. The C7 control you will find as REALLY nice to work with. It can be programmed ( as all Milltronics controls) conversationally, using M&G code or using parametrics (macro programming) think arced and curved 5 bladed fan in 14 lines of code. ( example in the manual) standard spindle speeds are 8K. Most RW's have a single speed motor ( 7.5 / 10HP) some were ordered with a 2 speed electronic shift spindle motor. Get the machine S/N and Miltroics can tell you how the machine was purchased. Milltronics service does an EXCELENT job of helping the customers.
Easy control to learn if you or employeys are new to CNC. Canned cyles for almost any thing you can think of, grid of holes or pockets, island pocket clear, text on acrs, the list goes on and on.
If you need specific info PM me.

Sportybob

[Len Hoffman]

Thanks for the info Sportybob. That really makes this sound like a good machine for me to cut my cnc teeth on. Pretty good with manual machines, but cnc will be totally new to me. I'm pretty competent with 2d acad, but that's as far as my programming skills go.

This is probably a stupid ? but how does a single speed spindle machine spinning 8k handle tapping? I need to do a lot M6 tapping.

Again thanks for the input. I'm probably going to come back for a lot more!

[sportybob]

Hi Len, AHHH! a "newbie" to CNC ;-) assuming you were around then??? You are going to ask your self, Why did I not do this 20 tears ago. ( I coulld have had a "V8")
Seriously the CNc world opens up a way to make parts that a manual machine could never had imagined. with in Milltronics case a true 3d contouring and ease of programming, You will be very happy.
FYI: Be aware ,if you are going to put this machine in you garage or shop that does NOT have 3 phase powe, you will need a phase converer. The Yaskawa M5 drives NEED 3 phase power. Earlier machines could be run on single phase. but the M5 NEEDS 3 phase.
If you don't have 3 phase Let's see that youget the machine that will be what YOU need.

Any questions? PM me.

BTW the only "stupid questions" are 1. The one you dont ask. 2. Bob, it 5:00 are you thirsty.

"Helping you to cut parts and make money"
Sportybob

[Len Hoffman]

My old shop didn't have 3ph power and that was a major pita! 17 years in that old location and inverters to deal with the issue. When we built our new building we had 3ph and lots of 400 amps of power. We're good there.

Heading out to take a look at the machine in a few minutes. I'll report back what I find.
Thanks for the help! It's 5:00 somewhere!:cheers:

[cml]

Len,

In my opinion, Milltronics has the best service and support staff I've ever dealt with...and I've dealt with lots of manufacturers over the years. Your experience with leaving a message and actually getting a return phone call was not just a fluke and I wanted to make you aware of that. Each and every one of them takes time to answer questions and work with you no matter if you bought a brand new machine or whether you are the 2nd or 3rd owner...it doesn't matter. So I just wanted to give you peace of mind that good quality help is an asset you gain along with your CNC machine tool when you go with Milltronics.

Good Luck to you!

CML

[Len Hoffman]

Thanks for the input. It sounds like starting out with a milltronics machine is a good way to go.
I looked at the machine today and watched it make some tiny, intricate alum parts. The machine makes a nasty first impression though as an employee ran the coolant system with straight water! It rusted the crap out of the interior. The owner says the ways were not affected and it would appear to be the case as it's holding circle cutting to .0008". The owner said he'll sand down the interior and repaint. We'll also pull the way covers and inspect them as well. What I'm worried most about is that the sections of the ways outside the normal operating range were damaged. Hopefully the way oil system protected them throughout.

I really like the owner. He has 5 milltronics machines and is a wiz at programming. He agreed to get me up and running on the critical work that has me looking at cnc's. He's willing to do this before we move the machine to my shop. That gives me confidence about the deal.

[Farmers Machine]

After you make your purchase and get your machine set up and running, The best money you could ever spend would be to go to Milltronics factory in Minnesota and take the CNC control training class. I G and M coded my new ones back in 2001 and after factory training my production doubled. Any CNC will make iron move. It is the easiest and most efficient on a Milltronics CNC. I worked at Alcoa Aluminum in central engineering for 4 years, we had a Haas, Mazak, Mitsubishi M3 and M5,Hyundai easy key, Siemens 840,Heidenhein,Fanuc, and Master Cam. None of these controls even comes close to doing at the machines control, what you can do with a Milltronnics.
Good Luck and welcome to the Family
The Farmer

[Len Hoffman]

Thanks for the input Farmer.
I bought the machine last week. We pulled the way covers for inspection and the ways look perfect. All of the damage from running straight water in the coolant was cosmetic. Part of the deal was that the original owner would strip and repaint the original color. Also included is enough training and programming to get me going on the cylinderhead repair process I need the machine for most urgently.

Seems a lot of folks think highly of the centurian 7 controller. That makes me feel good!

To keep from being chained to the machines controller to do programming I want to learn some cad system. A friend of mine is a long time programmer with experience working with several cam/cad software systems and a few years ago went through BobCam's 3 day programmer course. He speaks very highly of Bobcam. This is getting a bit off topic, but I'd really appreciate hearing others impressions of their favored software. I'm all ears.
Thanks!

[moldcore]

Len, I agree that doing the program away from the machine is the best option although the Centurion 7 is a pretty good controller. BobCAD will do for most machining today. We have used Surfcam for about 18 years but I can no longer recommend it for the price they want for it now. They’re dozens of CAM programs out there and some are close to being free if 2D is all you need. A good 3D program will set you back 12K put some start for half that.

[sportybob]

Hi Len, Moldcore has a point about the BobCad, download a demo version here CAD / CAM Software | Product Demo Downloads | Free Trial | BobCAD-CAM
that being said, most of the major machine technology comming out for the past couple of years is in the CadCam and tooling areas.
Surfcams "optimized" tool path and others similar CAM systems tool path improvments are impressive, Combine that with some of the new tools and feeds and speeds and cut times are incredible.
I have a customer that went from an older version of surfcam (36min run time) to a new version and played with the path and got it down to about 20min. then he added the new tooling and reposted the surfcam and is now running at 8.5 mins. Thats incrediable. It is just amazing to see the cast iron CHIPS fly at 300ipm. More spindle RPMs and he could do better.

But the "BIG" cams are not inexpensive.
Try them before you buy. One thing to look at is, What is the local college teaching? they usually have local support, which means you have local support. also when it comes time to hire a programmer, he / she already knows the software.

Sportybob

[Len Hoffman]

Good advise moldcore & sportybob, and very appreciated.

Much of what I need the machine for is 2d, but plenty of it is 3d too, so I'll have to have that ability. I'm decent at 2d acad, but the acad 3d lost me. I've been told by others that acad 3d is not so easy to learn.
I have an employee enrolled in the athens tech machine tool program. He actually starts a cnc course next semester, but I think it's just an introduction to button pushing:tired:. I'll get him to ask what software they use.
The cost of good cad/cam packages is up there, but man the time they save! What a powerful tool they bring to the table. I have sooooo much to learn! Fortunately I have many years of manual experience, so at least I know what I want the machine to do.

[Brian L]

Your employee can most likely buy an "educational seat" of Solidworks for $86 and then you download HSM express for Solidworks for free... that will do most all of the 2D work you need to do, and you have a year on the educational license to find out if it's going to work for you.

[Farmers Machine]

What kind of parts do you make or industry served? what is your definition of a 3D part, multi level pockets or full blown mold work, like an elliptical concave with reverse letters in the side? If your customer hands your a good drawing and you don't have to redraw to get programming info, your are half way home on the Milltronics. If you get a DXF and it is clean, re: single level lines, no overlaps, no disjoined ends, You can import directly into the control and all of your geometry is already programmed. All you have to do is set the Z level for each of you tools. There is Off Line software available from Milltronics for you to program your machine in the office or at home. In the event of a part not coming out as programmed, tool push off or part deflection, it is very easy to comp" out the problem in a conversational program, If you Bob Cad it you have to go back to the computer, redraw, rechain, and post, then load the new edited program and find where you want to restart with out cutting air to get there. Not bashing Bod Cad, I am a paid up maintenance owner of their software. Most of my 4th axis work is down hole oil tools and the job is programmed right on the control, using info from the drawing. The " Powers" were looking out for you in finding a good used Mill with the finest Job Shop Control on the planet. I guess that why they say, " MILLTRONICS, The ULTIMATE PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE"
waiting for a picture of the first part.
Good Luck
The Farmer

[Len Hoffman]

Farmer my industry is automotive. I have a variety of parts and pieces that I want to make, adding as I can. My bread & butter for the machine will be the time it saves me in re-machining surfaces on aluminum cylinder heads that we've welded for crack/damage repair. We spend a fair amount of manual time on that now.

VERY good info regarding milltronics off line software. I'll definitely look into that.
Very pleased to hear that centurian7 control is a good one. I do feel like I fell into a really good deal.

The first part will actually be a re-machined cylinder head that the seller is helping me with. The next ones will be up to me to design, that's when I know I'm going to need some help!

[moldcore]

Len, if you’re familiar with AutoCad then you may want to look into Autodesk CAM360. It’s being sold by subscription for about $50 a month for the 3D version. That’s much cheaper than most maintenance on the bigger systems. It may not be available yet but is supposed to be in the 1st quarter this year. It’s basically HSM Works that Autodesk purchased last year. I may look into it myself when Surfcam becomes obsolete with the current operating system in the future. No more SurfCam maintenance for us.

[Len Hoffman]

Thanks for tip Moldcore. Will definitely check that out as well.

Since the centurian 7 is so useful for programming I'll stay with it for now while I get used to the machine. Mean while I'll continue my research and pay attention to what you guys have to say .

Do I gather correctly that once xp is no longer supported by microsoft that's going to make a lot of cam software obsolete?

[moldcore]

Maybe not obsolete but updates to their software may not work in XP. Surfcam just announced that their updates are only guaranteed to work in Win 7 or newer. When Win 7 becomes outdated like XP then we may have to look into another CAM system if we upgrade our computer sometime down the road because we have decided that Surfcam updates are no longer worth paying $1600 a year.

[Len Hoffman]

Makes sense.

I suppose if you were happy with the current version of your software and weren't concerned about updates then xp, or even windows 98 would be fine if that was the operating system of that version, right?

[moldcore]

Eventually all operating systems become obsolete. And so does the hardware. How many programs are written for DOS today? Surfcam, AutoCAD, Mastercam, all started as DOS programs and have evolved to window based and 64 bit. I suppose keeping an XP box around to just run one program is doable but not very practical. Cam software will not be the only programs that will need to evolve as operating system change. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. Surfcam has not evolved enough to warrant it’s outlandish fees so we’ll be looking at alternatives in the future.