[klondikebike]

Having spent quite some time researching a bench top mill for my shop, it looks like the IH mil offers the best value for the money in the Chinese mills. Are people generally happy with these? Looks like the new run will have some improvements. Are these a better value than the Rong Fu units? I just spoke with Aaron, and he seems like a stand up fella.
Thanks
Paul

[BobWarfield]

I love my IH mill and have done quite a lot with it. You can see the projects on my web site:

www.cnccookbook.com

Aaron is a stand up guy, and extremely sharp about these mills and machinework in general. Unfortunately, he is moving on. Haven't chatted with the new owner yet.

Best,

BW

[bohica]

My mill is not yet running, so I cannot yet comment on the usability or utility of the IH mill in operation. But I hope to do so shortly,

What I did find is that this is akin to turning a sows ear into a silk purse. Not that this is isolated to the IH mill...you will find these problems throughout the Asian mill industry.

Like you, I did a lot of research and reached the conclusion that the IH mill represented the most bang for the buck. It still does.

However, you need to be prepared for potential significant challanges. Here are some I faced. 1.) The base of the square column was never milled, out of square by .080 in two directions to the ways. 2.)Likewise the top of the square column. 3.)The X axis gibs had no means of lubrication. Oh, they had lube fittings in the table, providing a lube point for the side of the gibs that never move. Gawd, what were these guys thinking? 4.)The Z axis ways were concave in the x axis direction by .005 on each side.

Not that I would, knowing this, not buy this mill. I knew there probably would be challanges. Nothing that some old fashioned American inguinity couldn't overcome. Got mine trammed quite nicely, within <.0005 on all but one axis. This is the biggest, baddest mill available in this class. All of these mills suffer some quality problems of varing degrees. But there ain't no other options.

"To mill, or not to mill, that is the question".

[kentavv]

Ok - if I was going to do it all again...

If I was going CNC route as I have I likely would purchase another IH along with the CNC kit after comparing it to both the bigger Smithy CNC (that's more money though...) and Tormach (plug'n play instead of fiddling for a couple of months).

If I was going strictly manual I would not get one of these mills again. I might have been unique in this regard but I just did not feel the quality was all that great amongst other reasons that are related to the work I do. I would most likely get a Grizzly mini-knee mill if I was going to go the manual route. Please note that I have one of the older style - not the most recent one with ground ways and reasonable access to the head retaining bolts.

Don't get me wrong - I don't regret getting the machine I did. It works great. But, if I was starting again knowing what I know now I might do things a little differently though not necessarily better.

In short I am very satisfied but it has taken some time and work to get there.

Best of luck in your choice.

[fireguy976]

Im also thinking of the I/H square column mill, joined this group to find out more about them. As I/H has their own group, maybe they are ok.

Looking for as much feedback, both good or bad, as possible.

What have you heard about the sale of the company? Also can still get a discount if ordered before Feb 15.



Regards,
KJ

[klondikebike]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I realize that a chinese mill will always be a chinese mill, but at least Aaron has done some homework on these, and his support appears to be second to none, which is where these (Chinese) mills seem to fall short. It looks to be head and shoulders over the Rongfu and their spawn.
Are the sagging issues with the head addressed with new changes?
Wildcat, how is the quality on those mini kneemills from Grizzly? The other option i was thinking of is one of those from the Busy Bee guys here in Canada. For my needs, a power feed on the Z axis would be ideal.

[fireguy976]

Im also thinking of the I/H square column mill, joined this group to find out more about them. As I/H has their own group, maybe they are ok.

Looking for as much feedback, both good or bad, as possible.

What have you heard about the sale of the company? Also can still get a discount if ordered before Feb 15.



Regards,
KJ

[kentavv]

Standard disclaimer here... I have never used one but I have seen them in their showroom. While the table is smaller and there may be less travel (not sure about that) if I has choosing a manual mill and my IH mill as it was when it was manual was put next to one of these I would choose the Grizzly without hesitation. Many because of the ease of motion, appearance of ways, MUCH wider ways (even though the Grizzly has a smaller table), additional details such as way wipers, and better way protection as well as general cosmetics. A clinching factor would be to hear the mills run. My gear head IH mill requires earplugs. Compare this to the HF round column belt drive mill for example (a cheaper mill) which is very quiet. Now, gearheads can be quiet... my Grizzly gearhead 13x40 lathe is very quiet. Not sure why the IH gearhead is so loud. Now granted, most of the stuff that I have done and likely to do is fairly small so the huge size is not that important in general. Now, I have trued a motorcycle wheel and for that there JUST barely was enough Y travel.

If you are going to convert to CNC the IH is a great kit though as you know the company is changing hands so that's a big unknown.

You mentioned talking to Aaron. I can absolutely say the reason I got the IH conversion kit is because of the time that Aaron spent with me. I had considered cutting my losses after receiving my mill and getting a Tormach. However, I took a gamble and have been happy after converting the mill.

I do hope that the new owner of IH spends some time to improve the documentation and written specs. That is one place where Tormach has IH beat. Even if the specs are not as good (don't know that personally) the quality and thoroughness of written demonstrates a great deal of professionalism. This difference is hard to over look when considering a purchase.

Sorry for the rambling.

Wildcat, how is the quality on those mini kneemills from Grizzly?

[BobWarfield]

I think people's experiences have varied quite a lot with these machines. Mine came trouble free. I cleaned it up, trammed it in, oiled the ways, and voila, it just worked. Travel on all axes has been very smooth, gearbox noise is not objectionable, I can hold decent tolerances, I take pretty heavy cuts, etc.

Others have reported issues, particularly with Z-axis smoothness as the head is cranked up and down. In some cases it has been really bad. I read this sort of thing about every brand of Asian machine out there, BTW, including Grizzly, Jet, and you name it. I'm looking for a bigger lathe, and there is someone on some board that will bash each and every one of the brands all the way up to $10,000 machines. Try this guy on Jet lathes (which are expensive), for example:

http://www.makeitsimple.com/sections.php?artid=14

Meanwhile, the "I must have Old American Iron" contingent will happily prattle on about how they've avoided the Asian nemesis, until you read the fine print: new spindle bearings ($300), rescraped the ways ($1000), replace XYZ hard to find part ($339), found 0.020" backlash in quill, Y-axis has cross play of 0.003", yada, yada, yada. I'm collecting a list of these anecdotes because I'm considering rebuilding a Bridgeport Boss or Tree at some point. From what I can see, there is no free lunch!

There was another fella on here all hot and bothered about problems with his IH. He was determined to go buy a Hurco because they don't have problems. He's over on the PM board as we speak complaining about the Hurco dealer and thinking maybe Haas is better after all. You can read all day long on those boards about issues people have with brand new Haas and Hurco machines costing zillions.

My point here is that if you are going to buy a machine tool, you are probably going to have to do some work on it almost no matter what if you insist on high enough levels of performance or cosmetic appearance. Even just routine maintenance requires attention not unlike this other work. Adjusting your gibs properly would be one example as would properly squaring and tramming a machine in. Some complain about it, others (especially the Old Iron contingent) view it as part of the fun. I’m not saying you should excuse unreasonable quality, but let’s be real about what we’re getting here for this kind of money, and let’s also expect virtually all machines to need some TLC.

The new IH machines reportedly have ground rather than milled ways. I would expect that to help quite a bit, but I don't think I have yet heard a report from anyone that has one of them, so who knows? I also don't know how to calibrate whether I just got lucky, or whether quality has steadily improved and ordering a later machine gets you a pretty nice deal.

In terms of what to do when going manual, it is an interesting question. Given my luck with my IH, I would really have to see one of these Grizzly machines to be personally convinced. It sure looks to me from my research like Grizzly charges a significant premium, though people do swear by their customer service.

Best,

BW

[kentavv]

Bob reminded me... I should add that the problems that I had with the mill in manual operation centered on the quill. It was garbage. To perform drilling and such I had to crank the head up and down. But I had to have the gibs so tight (to keep the head square) that I was either going to build a serious left arm or I was going to have to add a motor to raise the head.

I didn't get the impression that Grizzly charged much of a premium when I bought their lathe (I also considered the Enco version). The enco version was a few hundred less but had a lower maximum speed. For me it came down to "a bird in the hand vs. a bird in the hand." In other words, I had seen the Grizzly - it was a known quantity - but I had never seen the Enco. I have never talked with their customer service. However, they did include a real manual in real English. I mean, come on Chinese importers - can't you spend a few days writing a decent manual? HF seems to be improving a bit in this area.

klondikebike - you DID ask for as much feedback as possible

BTW: Be sure to checkout Bob's website he posted. It is fantastic!

[kentavv]

klondikebike - BTW: What would you like to be doing with your mill at first and what would you like to be doing in the future?

[klondikebike]

Gentleman, thanks for all the feedback. Its great to get lots of honest opinions.
Wildcat, i have a bike frame building (TIG) business, and i am upgrading my tube mitering system, and for that i need a mill or mill/drill. Basically, it will be a glorified drill press, as it will be just holding the fixturing, and a hole saw. I can certainly see myself using it for milling parts down the road, but its primary use will be the tube mitering. The critical distance on it is 16" min. from spindle to table, for fixture clearance. The IH has this in spades. The large table is nice, as i will have a 8" rotary table and a large vice mounted permanently. The Grizzly and the Rongfu units look god, but the IH looks better.
Cheers
Paul

[kentavv]

Would it matter if the quill was sloppy? That was the primary problem with mine and correcting that problem made operating the mill difficult. Please note this deflection was on the order of thousandths. One such thread talking about this problem is at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24497 and there others remarked on their quill deflection. This particular problem may be moot if for your work the deflection would be within tolerance.

You mentioned a power head/quill feed would be important. Have you identified a source for the power feed? Would the LatheMaster power feed work?

[klondikebike]

Given that the largest OD tubes i work with are 2", i could lower the head down, and only beworking with the first 2" or so of the quill travel. I can't imagine its going to be out that much over say 2.5" of travel. one thou. is very acceptable for my miters i think. Thats what .02mm of gap on the bottom of my miter. Thats assuming it would be out .001" over 2" of travel. A z axis power feed would be nice for having a constant slow feed of the hole saw through the tube. Some of the tubes i work with are down to .6mm wall thickness, so snagging a tooth is bad news.
The initial mill i looked at was a Rongfu gear head clone from house of tools here in Canada, had power down feed included for $2500. Can which is a good price. Trying to ship the IH here is going to be pricey. $450 S to get it to Seattle, then i'll have to barge it to Alaska. If there is not that much diference between the IH and the other Chinese mills, it might be way less headache and cash for me to go with the Rongfu clone here in Canada. I certainly don't mind taking the time to clean it up, lap the ways, and mess with it to tram it in.
Thanks for the help gents
Paul

[wizard]

Gentleman, thanks for all the feedback. Its great to get lots of honest opinions.
Wildcat, i have a bike frame building (TIG) business, and i am upgrading my tube mitering system, and for that i need a mill or mill/drill. Basically, it will be a glorified drill press, as it will be just holding the fixturing, and a hole saw.

I'm very much of the opinion that if you need a drill press then you should buy a drill press. Have you looked at geared head drill presses like Grizzly's G9747, G0520 or G9749? Yes a bit pricey but you eliminate your vertical constraints to a large degree.

Some of these come with feed capabilities others you would have to modify. Make no mistake here as I fully understand how useful a real mill can be to preparing weldments or for that matter working on them after welding. This is a case in my mind where you will be better off and likely more productive if you have a drill press and the required fixturing set up for tube work. There is an obvious requirements for stiffness which is why I suggested some of Grizzly's heavy duty machines.

I can certainly see myself using it for milling parts down the road, but its primary use will be the tube mitering. The critical distance on it is 16" min. from spindle to table, for fixture clearance.

This seems to be sound reasoning to me. The thing I'd suggest though is that you can save up front with a drill press and then a year or two down the road buy a real mill (Bridgeport clone).

By the way even though one of those drill presses mentioned came with an XY slide don't expect milling machine performance from it. The round column drill press arrangement just isn't as stiff as a Bridgeport.

The IH has this in spades. The large table is nice, as i will have a 8" rotary table and a large vice mounted permanently. The Grizzly and the Rongfu units look god, but the IH looks better.
Cheers
Paul

I suspect that you are optimistic about having a rotary table and a vise mounted permanently especially if you expect to be making use of tube cutting fixturing. That fixturing might be vise mountable but in the long run something robust and bolted to the machine table are in order. Another issue is that even on a large Bridgeport a Kurt style vise takes up a lot of room.

In the end the big problem I see you having is tying up a flexible machine, that is a milling machine, with production type work that could very well be done on a drill press. A mill would be very useful for mitering the odd items and in general prep work for weldments that are one off. To me though that flexibility would be wasted on tube work especially if there is a lot of set up and fitting work going on.

One final issue is that prepping tube for welding often requires presenting the tub to the tool at odd angles. This tubing can be very long resulting in interference with the table and other parts of the milling machine. In the end you end up with a less than optimal setup if you can do the procedure at all on a mill. A drill press CAN be a winner here if it has a table that can rotate and swing to allow positioning of that tubing. Machining of large pieces on a mill can be a problem if that piece requires odd positioning. It is of course a trade off, a mill is much stiffer but a far greater expense.

I hope that this reply is balanced, there are good reasons to have a drill press for this sort of work. Likewise the milling machine. If you are just starting out and costs are a consideration I'd go the drill press route. If you really need tooling feed then consider a modification to the drill press.. It is a mixed bag, in industry milling machines are often used to make fixturing for drill presses. Drilling and drill presses being a very economical way to get things done.

Dave

[AnvilBW]

I'm very much of the opinion that if you need a drill press then you should buy a drill press....snipped.....I hope that this reply is balanced, there are good reasons to have a drill press for this sort of work. Likewise the milling machine. If you are just starting out and costs are a consideration I'd go the drill press route. If you really need tooling feed then consider a modification to the drill press.. It is a mixed bag, in industry milling machines are often used to make fixturing for drill presses. Drilling and drill presses being a very economical way to get things done.

Dave

Sorry Dave, it sounds good in theory but it's a nightmare in practice.

The problem with using a drill press when mitering (coping actually but in the bike industry it's called mitering) is that you're making an interupted cut on VERY high tensile materials (in excess of 200K UTS) with the associated vibration and uneven loading. Most drill presses have no method of positive tool retention (Morse taper only, no drawbar) and when mitering tubes, your chuck/tool holder inevitably rattles loose ruining your work and quite possibly injuring yourself. Further, until you start talking about very large drill presses, you don't have the head/quill/spindle rigidity to deal with an interupted cut with large diameter cutters.

[BobWarfield]

Heck, some people probably would use something like a Tree 325 in the pursuit of better bike frames, huh, Anvil?

Best,

BW

[AnvilBW]

Heck, some people probably would use something like a Tree 325 in the pursuit of better bike frames, huh, Anvil?

Best,

BW

Hah! Too wimpy!

Must have more power!

[wizard]

Sorry Dave, it sounds good in theory but it's a nightmare in practice.

That would be entirely correct on a light duty drill press commonly found in your average home center or woodworking supply house. That is why mentioned the heavier machines.

The problem with using a drill press when mitering (coping actually but in the bike industry it's called mitering) is that you're making an interupted cut on VERY high tensile materials (in excess of 200K UTS) with the associated vibration and uneven loading.

The tensile strength of the material has little to do with the issue in comparison to the offset loads due to the interrupted cuts. This can be addressed however with the right tooling. To some extent anyways.

The reality is that on a drill press you have a greater opportunity to present the work to the tool in a well supported manner. This especially so for odd angle miters. Yes some fixturing is required but that is a given anyways. With a milling machine it may become very difficult to present a large piece of tubing to the tool in a well supported manner. Especially tubing that has already had some forming done by bending.

Frankly it is the milling machines limited ability to position the work piece relative to the tool that has me concerned. In this regard I'm not sure which is worst, a knee mill of the column mills that are popular these days. If it can be shown that every single cut that needs to be accomplished can be easily done on a mill then I would tend to say hell yeah by the mill. Mills are obviously more flexible and often stiffer, at least for machining involving milling. They however are not that flexible when it dome to handling outsize work.

Most drill presses have no method of positive tool retention (Morse taper only, no drawbar) and when mitering tubes, your chuck/tool holder inevitably rattles loose ruining your work and quite possibly injuring yourself.

Drill presses can be had with draw bars. This is no big deal.

Further, until you start talking about very large drill presses, you don't have the head/quill/spindle rigidity to deal with an interupted cut with large diameter cutters.

I was in fact talking about large drill presses. The Grizzly numbers being at the low end of the spectrum. In either this case or the one about the tools rattling loose the problems with this type of work can be greatly reduced via the use of the right tooling. Annular cutters with tooth pitches that wont dig in will go a long way here.

Interestingly there are a number of purpose built machines for this type of work. These machines can best be described as a motor will a long heavy milling cutter attached. Yeah a little more to it that that but the point remains that this isn't rocket science nor is it CNC milling (could be) just that it is a reasonably simple machining procedure. Not to mention the laser and plasma systems designed for the pipe industry. Machining such miters on a drill press or mill for that matter is a low end approach to the problem. As such you can't expect fantastic production rates nor all the goodies that more advanced systems offer. In the end it is an issue of money and investment.

Dave

[AnvilBW]

That would be entirely correct on a light duty drill press commonly found in your average home center or woodworking supply house. That is why mentioned the heavier machines.

The tensile strength of the material has little to do with the issue in comparison to the offset loads due to the interrupted cuts. This can be addressed however with the right tooling. To some extent anyways.

The reality is that on a drill press you have a greater opportunity to present the work to the tool in a well supported manner. This especially so for odd angle miters. Yes some fixturing is required but that is a given anyways. With a milling machine it may become very difficult to present a large piece of tubing to the tool in a well supported manner. Especially tubing that has already had some forming done by bending.

Frankly it is the milling machines limited ability to position the work piece relative to the tool that has me concerned. In this regard I'm not sure which is worst, a knee mill of the column mills that are popular these days. If it can be shown that every single cut that needs to be accomplished can be easily done on a mill then I would tend to say hell yeah by the mill. Mills are obviously more flexible and often stiffer, at least for machining involving milling. They however are not that flexible when it dome to handling outsize work.

Drill presses can be had with draw bars. This is no big deal.

I was in fact talking about large drill presses. The Grizzly numbers being at the low end of the spectrum. In either this case or the one about the tools rattling loose the problems with this type of work can be greatly reduced via the use of the right tooling. Annular cutters with tooth pitches that wont dig in will go a long way here.

Interestingly there are a number of purpose built machines for this type of work. These machines can best be described as a motor will a long heavy milling cutter attached. Yeah a little more to it that that but the point remains that this isn't rocket science nor is it CNC milling (could be) just that it is a reasonably simple machining procedure. Not to mention the laser and plasma systems designed for the pipe industry. Machining such miters on a drill press or mill for that matter is a low end approach to the problem. As such you can't expect fantastic production rates nor all the goodies that more advanced systems offer. In the end it is an issue of money and investment.

Dave

Dave, I'm sorry, I'm not intending to pick on you but you're laboring under a lack of practical experience in the field we're discussing. The UTS of the material is important because it plays directly to the main problem: very, very tough materials with wall thicknesses down to .016." We're not talking about forgiving materials and pipe here. Annular cutters don't work on thinwall tubing (the best cutters are high TPI ground HSS holesaws but lots of folks make due with regular holesaws). Bottom line is that you need a very rigid setup with minimal runout and a mill gives you that plus an ability to make other widgets as the builder requires.

Trust me, almost every pro builder goes down the path you're outlining and they always end back up with either a horizontal or vertical milling machine. It's just a matter of how much time and money you spend before you get there.

Here's some shots to show what I'm talking about.