[Crushmonkey]

Basically the story is this:

I work in our family-owned sign shop, pretty traditional cabinets neon pole signs channel letters etc etc. We're small but feisty and have cultivated a great reputation locally over the three years we've been in business for ourselves.

But we're still small-time, and we want to fix that. Last year I talked the owners into purchasing a professional router to help achieve this end. I tried to push the DIY option, but with our limited experience in the CNC area, it was decided that we would buy professional so we would have access to such things as training and warranty and standardized product.

Of course Murphy's Rule came into effect the instant the check cleared for the nearly 60K the machine cost. Our salesman had to take an extended leave to take care of some personal affairs, leaving the other three of us to bumble about learning about sales from a hands-on perspective. We had little idea of how sales worked, and less about selling or even pricing router work.

The full on-site software training never came through, only a few minutes' introduction. We ended up having to settle for over the phone and email input, and all the way through it we barely made it work enough to cut out some letters and such after ruining an embarrasingly expensive amount of product. But word was getting around that we had a router and we got more and more calls for work, slowly but steadily.

But then, several important large sales fell through with no full-time salesman to maintain them, and we were forced to sell the machine for half of what we'd bought it for just over three months earlier, with less than ten hours total running time on it. More jobs over a long period of time couldn't defray the investment cost in time to save it, sadly.

Now, months later, I still bring up the CNC as a tool to empower our company, but the experience has left a bad taste in the mouth of the folks that write my checks. Not that I blame them. Losing so much money is a painful lesson, but I don't think we should let it stop us from taking advantage of what could propel us into financial security (I should also mention here that aside from financial security, I would love nothing more than to have unrestricted access to a powerful routing device for my own nefarious hobby purposes) in much less time than the standard way of doing things.

I have, however, convinced them to give me a chance to put together a theoretical machine to show them plans and such of. It has been made known to me that cost will be the biggest factor in the debate.

We were entirely pleased with the table itself. Multicam makes a gorgeous and sturdy machine, and the 3000 Series is proof of that. And it's the benchmark for which we'll be holding this new machine to.

The software, however, left something to be desired. From what we could gather, many of the problems we were having could have been attributed to the software being the last version before a full total upgrade to a new version and that there were bugs still being worked out. We're not sure.
Having the on-site software training would have likely helped.
I'm sure that given more time, we would have been able to work out the software issue altogether, as Multicam did make effort to send us an upgrade and provide us with tech suppourt over the phone and email.

But for all intensive purposes, the software for the new machine is entirely open.

Now, to the meat of this thread (yes, I type a lot, and I've probably lost most of you out of boredom by now but please bear with me.).

I need to acquire, design, or purchase plans for a robust CNC router that meets or exceeds these design specifications:

5X10' Available Working space.

3-Axis movement with Z-motion of at least 8" tool plunge (the more plunge, the better, but I know that once you reach a certain point, your bit will be wobbling too much to make it worth your while so I'll settle for what I can get)

Upgradeability of future additional axises(sp?) to true 3-D sculpting capability achieved through modular design.

Pod-style vaccum hold-down system which can be easily disengaged and covered with a porous sacrificial board for use with projects such as sheet metal routing.

Vaccum pumps or motors to handle the workspace of the full 5X10 if needs be. I'm thinking of using multiple vaccuum motors salvaged from vaccuum cleaners rather than one main pump, the idea being that these motors are cheaper and more replaceable, and I won't have to worry about dust getting into them.

Chip evacuation boot and system. We're designing a DIY system like the Tempest we had with the old router because it worked very well. We're going to use PVC piping as much as we can, however, since our old system was almost totally the ribbed flex-piping and cut our vaccuum pressure and made it easier for chips and dust to build up in the ribs. We'd keep the ribbed piping around the spindle head and at least partway to the ceiling in order to enable full range of motion.

Oil-lube sprayer for metalworking projects.

Tool-Sensing and Calibration system. I adored the quick and easy tool-changing system the Multicam came with. I put in the new bit, drop it until it makes an electrical contact with a sensor block, and the machine knows not only where the bit ends, but where the table and/or work blank begins.

Sturdy enough stepper motors (200 movements per revolution seems to be a standard, am I wrong?) and tool spindle to suppourt high cutting speeds. After seeing people posting here about working with lower speeds, I realized that the 1000 ipm cutting speed I was used to may have to be compromised, but I'd still like to be able to cut product as fast as possible, since the table's main purpose will be to generate money for the business, and as my hobby-toy only secondary.

Pendant system. I'd hate to have to calibrate and make small movement changes by having to type into a keyboard five feet away from the unit itself. I like being able to basically push my face up to the thing and see exactly where I'm going with it. Also, the LED readout on the pendant is great for knowing where my tool is sitting, or for measuring and such.

Variable-speed spindle and spindle lockout. Variable-speed because we found need to cut between 16k and 30k rpm's, lockout so we can put a pen or knife into the collet and make patterns or cut paper when the plotter is busy.

Spindle will also need to accept varying-size collets to hold bits from very small to very large.

Dependable controllers with standard GCODE capability.


Software Specs:

Right now we need software to import from other programs and send it to the machine via GCODE. The software we have available right now are Corel Draw 12, Adobe 10, and GSP Omega for our plotter, which I'm told can make simple toolpaths for such things as cutting letters from plex. The software we'll need could be just a simple program that converts .eps or .ai or .plt files into GCODE and sends it to the router, but we're hoping for really dependable software with 2.5-D and 3-D toolpathing capability, the option to run more than 3 axises, wireframe capabilities, high-resolution vector-to-toolpath importing, spindle speed control, etc.

I basically want to be able to import or create the artwork, tell the software what tool I'm using and product I'm cutting, change out the tool and calibrate it, send the head to zero position, send the router a toolpath, and start my project.

And I'm sure I'll remember other things that should be put into consideration. I'll post them when I recall them.

Basically, I have time to get my act together and present to the folks in charge a device that is easier on the pocketbook than the last one, but with roughly the same capabilities. These are people who, given the circumstances, will want to have available to them every iota of information I can get.

This is going to be a work in progress and I'll be posting how far along I'm getting from start to finish. Any input of any kind is welcome, enthusiastically requested, and appreciated.

Oh, and by the way, I'm Crushmonkey and I'm new to posting here. This being my first thread and post I'd like to say this is a great forum and I'm glad to be here. Hello all! :wave:

[ger21]

Buy a ShopBOT with a 5HP spindle for $16K. It'll probably cost you more to do it yourself.

[Crushmonkey]

That's an option I'm considering... But if I bought a retail unit, once I started monkeying around with upgrading and accessorizing it, wouldn't I void any warranties? And it's likely there'd be issues with the warranty if I chose to go with third-party software as well. But it is still an option. If it turns out to be the option I go with, I guess I'll have to shamefacedly ask a moderator to move this thread to a more suitable forum *blush*

I just want to check all my options and DIY seems a good place to start, not yet having $20k to invest in a machine and software. The funding will come, in time. Much of it directly from my own pocket. I'm just comparing DIY to retail on every possible level for my needs before I make a decision. All else failing, I buy a retail unit, learn everything I can about using it while the warranty holds, then frankenstein it to fit my needs.

*browses forums* Information overload! It's so exciting I'm trying not to pee myself lol :banana:

[skippy]

(a) "I work in OUR family-owned sign shop" "over the three years WE'VE been in business for ourselves" "Last year I talked THE OWNERS into..." I assume you mean "a" family business? i.e. you're not one of the owners? You'll see further on why I ask.

(B) Mastercam have hundreds, if not thousands of machines under their belts AND many years manufacturing experience in this field so I do find this one strange. (I'm not challenging you and no, I have no link to Mastercam).

(C) I really don't want to offend anyone but, to tell you the truth, it sounds like a management problem rather than a machine problem (management of the company not the machine that is) I don't doubt that there was a problem or problems with the machine but: (C1) Why wasn't the sales thing sorted out earlier? (C2) Three months hardly sounds like a solid committment to new technology (C3) Sounds like the machine was bought without money (loan or overdraught) hoping that it would immediately start paying for itself and when it didn't, panic struck.

(D) You can accuse me of being a wet blanket if you like but unless you are one of the owners I wouldn't go diy route because if you do and there are problems, it will be you who gets the blame.

EDIT I just read Gerry's post and that's the route I would take.

EDIT2 "Much of it directly from my own pocket" So you are one of the owners.

As I said above, I don't want to offend anyone but I do try to look at these things from an overall business point of view, not just a technical point of view. This is just my opinion and as someone said here today in cnczone, opinions are like........

Phil

[Crushmonkey]

(a) "I work in OUR family-owned sign shop" "over the three years WE'VE been in business for ourselves" "Last year I talked THE OWNERS into..." I assume you mean "a" family business? i.e. you're not one of the owners? You'll see further on why I ask.

OUR family business. I refer to myself as an employee because while I am a shareholder, my parents are the partners in charge. I'm just the monkey with the computer

(B) Mastercam have hundreds, if not thousands of machines under their belts AND many years manufacturing experience in this field so I do find this one strange. (I'm not challenging you and no, I have no link to Mastercam).

It's Multicam, actually. And they have a great table and awesome staff, there were just some issues with the software. If I had the money to drop on it, I'd buy another exact same table with third-party software.

(C) I really don't want to offend anyone but, to tell you the truth, it sounds like a management problem rather than a machine problem (management of the company not the machine that is) I don't doubt that there was a problem or problems with the machine but: (C1) Why was'nt the sales thing sorted out earlier? (C2) Three months hardly sounds like a solid committment to new technology (C3) Sounds like the machine was bought without money (loan or overdraught) hoping that it would immediately start paying for itself and when it didn't, panic struck.

The sales thing caught us off-guard because our star salesman was our ONLY salesman. Three months was all the time we had because the problems of sales compounded with dropping all the investment CASH we had into the machine made our issues spiral out of control. The machine would have paid for itself had the two big sales on the board not fallen through due to the salesman being incommunicado.

Sales is still our biggest issue right now, our salesman having had to retire from the company following the router loss debacle. Which puts sales directly on the out-of-work router person. *grimaces* That would be me.

Which is why most of the cost of the new unit will be coming from my pocket because after the unfortunate happenings before, the management is leery of throwing cash at me again. My plan is to build maybe a small benchtop unit out of my own pocket (and contracting out to them under my own company), and using the funds from that to finance the big router.

(D) You can accuse me of being a wet blanket if you like but unless you are one of the owners I wouldn't go diy route because if you do and there are problems, it will be you who gets the blame.

Not an owner yet. But I'm bucking for management of a planned branch office. I'd like to prove myself with this router thing first

[Mcgyver]

Skippy you are right on the money, again not to offend but no one is doing any favours to *****foot around it. With the demand and capacity you saw how tough it was to make the business work - now you are considering layering on more risk (in a DIY project) that will also divert resources away from the core biz. Go with Gerry's idea and put the energy you would put into DIY into a sales and marketing plan/program.

Consider: no matter how experienced and skilled a machine designer or engineer you are, you are not going to be more efficient than a commercial solution. Spend a few extra hours a day making & selling signs - focusing on your core competency and buy the machine with the proceeds.

If you are not able to make more $$$ focused on your core competency than you'd save by building it yourself, consider ripping down the Crushmonkey Signs, and put up a Crushmonkey CNC Routers sign.

[skippy]

Crushmonkey: Sorry, I did understand Multicam but wrote Mastercam.

Mcgyver: I couldn't agree more.

[tauscnc]

You could always look here. Used routers :http://www.routercenter.com/

If you do get one tell'im I sent yah Don't worry I get nothing and they will probably ask who your talking about too

taus

[Crushmonkey]

Mcguyver: You're right. Any time I'd be building a machine could be spent selling signs or soliciting loans to actually buy one. I didn't think of the time involved taking me away from making money, I was only looking at the DIY in the sense of saving as much money as possible... which would be losing money in the long run in time spent NOT selling product.

Tauscnc: I checked out that link and I was shocked to see how cheap used routers were. Thankies!

Gerry (or another mod), could I get you to move my thread into a more suitable area so I can rename it something like Finding The Right Router System or something? Or should we just delete it and start fresh?

[CNCRob]

I think I would go with Gerry's ideal. I always value his opinion and he's never been wrong on the ideals he's gave me.

[Crushmonkey]

Thanks for the move, Gerry!

And yes, a ShopBot or ShopSabre are the two main retail units I'm looking at right now.

I saw a large table on Ebay yesterday that made me wish I had the 8k for it. It was the right size, and only needed a hard drive and spindle :frown:

I don't know what make it was, other than it had a lot of Porter components.

So now it's just a matter of narrowing down the model I want for my purposes.

Has anyone here had experience with used routers?

[Crushmonkey]

Does anyone have a list or table that shows router models and brands in a cross-reference like pricing, durability, capability etc?

[ger21]

Before I posted my previous reply, I was going to tell you you would have to spend at least $25K to get what you were asking for. In your original post you said you wanted to build a 5 x 10 router. Depending on what you used for linear bearings, and whether you used ball screws or rack and pinion, or something else, I'd say your looking at $4K to 8K minimum for a rolling frame. Provided you can cut and weld it all up yourself. If you need to have someone else do the work, add more $$.

Did your MultiCAM router have a spindle that did 30,000 rpm? Why do you think you need 30,000 rpm. With a 1/2" tool, I cut at 4000ipm and 15,000 rpm. With a 1/8" tool, I've never had the need to go over 19-20,000rpm. This is cutting mdf, plywood and other wood panel products, as well as hardwoods.
A good spindle will run you $3-5K, or more.

Good quality steppers, drives, power supply, pendant, electronics will run $1500-$3000 or more. You'll need to have pretty good electronics skills to wire everything up. You'll probably have to build your own pendant. This is assuming you'll be using Mach2 and Gecko drives http://www.geckodrive.com to control the machine. You could go with a ready to run commercial type system, but the price will go up quickly.

If you want a vacuum system to hold down parts through a spoilboard on a 5 x 10 machine, old vacuum cleaners are going to get the job done. Add another 3-5K, or more.

Decent dust collection can probably be had for $500-$1000.

A coolant system (mist?) will make a mess on a router used to cut wood and foam.

Software. This depends on a lot of things. I know a lot of guys can get by with Corel Draw to do a lot of sign work. Add an inexpensive 2D CAM program like SheetCAM ($150), http://www.sheetcam.com and you can do a lot of things. But it really depends on your needs, and the products that you produce. Step up to something like ArtCAM Insignia, and you're out another $3K. There are a few other sign packages in the same price range. Go to ArtCAM Pro, and you're looking at $7K. You can spend a lot more.
One thing to remember, DON'T EVER buy any expensive CAD/CAM software without letting the company let you try it for at least 30 days. Some may let you pay on a month by month basis for a trial period. Bottom line, make sure the software you are buying will work for you. Every software salesman (machine salesman too) will tell you there product is just what you need. Only you really know what you need.

Now add in about 1000 hours of your time to get the thing built, another 1000 hours to make changes and upgrades to get it working like you want. Several hundred hours to learn and get very proficient with the software you'll be using.

It might seem a lot cheaper, but when all is said and done, a production quality 5 x 10 machine will not be cheap.

If you don't have the money to spend on something like the ShopBOT, you might want to look at http://www.data-cut.com The guy who sells the plans has a lot of sign making experience, too. According to the info on his site http://data-cut.com/download/dc-list.rtf , even a smaller machine like this will probably cost $6-7K.

I think you need to do a lot more research into what you really want to do. Learn what the machine will do for you're business. How much of a learning curve is involved. You can't just drop a CNC router in your shop and expect it to start making money.

[yukonho]

MultiCam machines come with EnRoute software. The original version was complete crap. I used it for 2 years. Aparently EnRoute has been updated considerably, but I have not used the new version.
There are indeed many different versions of CAM software you can use. MasterCam or Gibbs is 3D software and is overkill for signmaking, not to mention expensive as.
Colin

[Crushmonkey]

Wow, Gerry. That's more information in five minutes than I've found myself in hours. Thanks!

Cutting and welding isn't an issue since I have access to three welders, Journeyman to Master.

If I remember correctly, we ran rpm's from 16,000 to 24,000 depending on the material. I think 30, 000 is probably a number that's sticking in my head because I was told one of the CAD routers at the local air force base is spec'd to that number.
We cut and shaped wood, plex, acrylic and foam blanks, and sheet metal, which is what the mist spray is for. The dust gathering on the oil overspray wasn't so bad if between jobs I airhosed carefully and ran a rag where I could fit it. The oil was mostly around the spindle head and the edges of my toolpaths anyway.

Since we didn't have a plotter yet, I also would disable the spindle and stick a sharpie marker in it to trace my paper patterns

There's two of us capable of reading wiring blueprints or detailed diagrams, but only one who could do any heavy soldering, although I'd have trouble talking him into it.
So I'm going to assume a professional system unless it'd be worth my while to find someone to wire it for me.

what would be an acceptable CFM or mbar/Torr rating for a vaccum pump to pull solidly through that much spoilboard? It seems that for 5 grand about 65 CFM is what I'd be getting. Although there is a trailer-mounted pump powered by a V8 diesel and rated 2200 CFM on ebay currently for $2500. Wonder what the reserve is. That could hold down probably any reasonably-sized table I could build plus provide chip/dust evacuation and still power vac cleanup throughout the shop. But is that so much volume as to degrade the spoilboard?

And yeah... I checked into it and the vaccum cleaner motors I'm used to only pull just over 6 CFM each... So I'd have a whole wall dedicated to just vaccum cleaner motors. Even at that cheap, it'd still be a bother.

Are there many folks on this site that work in the sign industry? I'll post in the proper area to ask them which software they perfer for applications such as I'd be doing.

Maybe if I don't buy every single component separately, but certain assembled systems and subsystems to put together into a whole unit, I might be able to get a better bargain than retail without having to pay retail. Say I focus on selling signs, and buy my router in steps. That seems less daunting than either having to save up thirty grand or spend fifteen but lose so much time assembling it part by part.

What do y'all think?

Yukonho: I hated EnRoute. I was told that since I'd been using plotter programs for so long, Enroute should be intuitive for me. Not so. And I've heard that EnRoute was crap, But the upgrade, V.4, (which we never got to install since we had to say bye-bye to teh table) is supposedly much better than the version I was running, according to our sign buddies.

And I'd want to start with software capable of 2.5D on 3 axis and 3D once I upgrade to four or five axis, since we've had call for large 3D sign sculpting and lost out to the local sign behemoth corp for more profit than the whole router cost. We could have cut it in 2.5D layers and laminated them together, but the time factor put us over the limit.

We wouldn't be doing 3D all the time, but it would be worthwhile to have when we can throw a bid on it

[ger21]

ShopBOT's site lists two vacuum systems. A7.5HP that draws 14"Hg@144CFM, and a 15HP that doubles the CFM. They don't list the prices, but I'd think the smaller one would be in the $5K range.

I haven't really seen any commercial sign industry people here. There may be, though.

If the ShopBot is out of your range, here's my recommendation.

Either buy a smaller machine, ready to run, say 24x48 or 30x60, that you can use right away, or build a machine from the following plans:
http://www.inshorepowerboats.com/cnc.../CNCROUTER.htm
http://www.campbelldesigns
http://www.data-cut.com

If you spend enough time reading here, you could even design your own router.

You don't need a vacuum hold down system to start with. You can always add one at a later time.

But a copy of SheetCAM for $150. That and CorelDraw will let you cut any 2D signs you want, with the exception of V-carved lettering.

This will let you get up and running for less money, and you can start making money while you're learning.
Then spend the money to get better software, if you find you need it.
Then upgrade to a larger machine.

This should get you running for around $5K, maybe a little more, maybe a lot less.

Building a 5x10 table as your first machine will more than likely cost you a lot more than buying the ShopBOT, and probably will take a lot of modifications to make it work as well as a ShopBOT.

You might want to browse through the forums at ShopBOT, I'm sure there are a lot of Signmakers there that could answer your questions, as well as just a lot of good information. http://www.talkshopbot.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

[Crushmonkey]

thanks for all the input, Gerry. It's much appreciated.

One of the things I realized with the other router that we had is that even our sign shop on a good month wouldn't run it more than a few hours a week max, so with the new router I got the idea of funding enough of it myself (through my own wages and whatever loans I can get) to own it or controlling shares in it and have a little routing company as my own side venture - mostly to pay the router off, then as fun and profit

Me and my brother are kind of amateur gadgeteers I guess you could say - we blame it on all the legos and erector sets as kids. Our motivation for the eventual 5-axis router is to use it to make things that are fun for us to build, and then sell them. Furniture, movie props, jewelry, whatever appeals to us to build and market really.

So initially I'd be starting it just for sign applications. But I'd like to have enough work to run it at least a full shift a week. I wouldn't complain for two shifts, either. But it's a little early to be going there. *chuckles*

As far as the ShopBot, it looks like a solid machine and it may be within my range. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that they have proprietary software and am going to check into that.

[turmite]

I cut at 4000ipm and 15,000 rpm. With a 1/8" tool, I've never had the need to go over 19-20,000rpm.

Ger21....am I reading this right? You are cutting at 4000ipm? If so can you please tell me what kind of drive motors, linear setup and controller? I have a need for speed but with my product I may not be able to have it.

Mike
ps not trying to hijack!

[ger21]

Sorry, Mike. That was supposed to be 400ipm.

[skippy]

Crushmonkey, having followed this thread through a bit, it seems like you've got what it takes to get on top of that earlier fiasco with the other machine. Believe it or not my first introduction to cnc back in 1990 was much the same except I spent $104,000AUD (from memory $1AUD wasn't too far off $1USD back in 1990, unlike today) of my own hard earned money on a large router ($73,000) and software ($29,500) that couldn't complete a single job without taking off out of control at full speed, smashing the tool bit, often wrecking the job, and smashing into the end plates. (for some reason the E-stop wouldn't work when it was out of control, and no it wasn't the encoders at fault). A true "baptism by fire"!
To cut a long story short, when the warranty ran out after 3 months and they still couldn't find the fault and I still couldn't complete a single job and therefore had to contract everything out,
I put it into storage and took the legal route which took eight years. I won the court case but not really. For seven years I paid all the legal fees out of my own pocket as "pro-bono" doesn't or didn't exisit in Australia. Then, when the lawyers could smell the money (i.e. could see that I was going to win) suddenly their fees went through the roof and ate up nearly all the compensation money. You can imagine what it's like to fight your own lawyer over fees. A lawyer could justify $2,000 for a cup of coffee if he wished to! By the time the court case had finished some eight years later, the still defective machine was worth less than $10,000.
I'm telling you all this to say, my heart goes out to you because I know what you're going through. Although I think you were a bit quick to cut your losses, I should have cut mine and moved on instead of going the legal route. The other thing is that back then cnc was like "black art" as no one knew anything about it so therefore if you were unlikely enough to have pooly trained technicians like I had, they could tell you anything to cover their guess work. Luckily, everything has changed these days, well, in the case of your machine I'll say almost everything. Cnc is no longer a black art, technicians are generally well trained, (I wish there had been technicians of the standard of "Big Al" back then!) and above all the software has become so good (generally) and so cheap. I've recovered quite well since those days and I'm sure you've got what it takes to do the same.

Anyway, I wanted to say your on the right track with Gerry's advice re machines but by the same token as Mcgyver says, don't underestimate the power of sales. I love the technical side of things which is why I am here at cnczone BUT I'm the first to admit that sales are what drives any business. It's like water on a farm, you can't do without the water / seeds / tractor / land / farmer / scarecrow / accounting / fertiliser / etc. BUT it's the water (= sales orders) that makes it really happen.