[Stevie]

Hi engine fans
Well it's time for me to make something other than a cnc machine
I have decided on my real passion (watching F1 since i was 15)
So a scaled down version of a V10 is what I plan to make

]

Some lines are just for construction
But the basic crank/rods I feel is close to what might work for this
The crank will be cut away for counterbalance but at this point thats work I just don't need to do
The banks are 201mm long; with bore centers at 38.44mm
Bore/stoke are 32.43mm by 27.14mmfor a total displacement of 224.178cc or 13.68 CID

[ger21]

Can't wait to see this.

[CNC Pro]

Awesome! Can we expect 24,000+ RPM, pneumatically operated valves (4-5 per cylinder), direct fuel injection, magnesium alloy block with the theoretically ideal 72 degree V-angle (dry sumped, naturally) etc? Also, are you going with the inconel exhaust within the V (Ferrari style)?
Crazy F1 designers/engineers!
Seriously, it’s an ambitious (but really cool) project. I wish you luck, and I hope you keep us updated here of your progress.

[ger21]

Is this designed from scratch, or are you copying something?

[Stevie]

I emailed Cosworth and Judd
No luck
I'll be designer/engineer etc

as for Valve train; I'll try pneumaticallyclosed; might not be possible; they will be small
4 Valves per cylinder; actually the block is 90dgr; 72 dgr got way to tight; the throws are 72dgr
Rods will be I beamed; I'll just re-draw 1 for machining

[CNCRob]

This is a pretty cool project.

[CJL5585]

What is your estimation of the number of hours it will take to complete this project? I expect it will be a long term project even if machining is performed on a CNC machine.

Just curious,
Jerry

[Stevie]

Ok I'll throw a few of my ideas in here; I'm open to comments etc with this; it is a big project; I feel not outside whats possible; my machines can do most of it; the gantry is just about to run; the mini mill can do a lot of neat stuff; if a new machine is needed for say grinding the cams; well i guess I'll just have to build one

So Ideas
I'll run it on Methanol with some nitro 10% maybe more "why" well making a tiny spark ignition system seems out of the question; unless someone here can help
The Cams I'll drive with XL timing belts!!
Crank; 4340 or 4140 pre-hard? I'll center drill 6 times per end; this will allow me to turn/grind the throws first; then turn/grind the journals; last would be the timing and flywheel ends; which would remove the 5 centers needed for the throws

Yes dry-sumped
Water cooled; the block might be laminated from 1" thick plates; this will allow me to create the water jackets;I really don't want to be casting parts; heads will be the same laminations; there can be Vitron O-rings to seal the laminations
Head bolts will go all the way to the crankcase webs for max strength

Any ideas out there?

Hi Jerry; about a year might be more

[pstockley]

Should be a fun project! I think getting the fuel injection and pneumatic valve train working at this size will be really tricky. I am not sure you would even need to go to pneumatic valves given the massively reduced valve train weight compared to an original F1 engine. There is a book available that gives a very detailed breakdown of a modern Ferrari F1 engine, just can't remember the name of the top of my head. Have you seen it?

Also there is this Aurora IRL engine replica

http://www.replicaengines.com/products/aurora.htm

[pstockley]

Here are some good references for general model engine building

http://modelenginenews.org/

http://www.strictlyic.com/

http://www.modelenginebuilder.com/

Spark ignition is certainly possible at this size. You can pick up components for a hall effect system pretty readily and also miniture spark plugs.

There is a guy at the Toronto model engineering club who has built some engines with solenoid operated valves. They are pretty cool. He has then operating up to about 15,0000rpm at the moment.

[Stevie]

Nope; have not seen it; good link you posted; never knew about them; they are quite close to me; close to Ger21 for sure he lives in Michigan; just over the bridge from me

[pstockley]

Forgot to mention, I know a guy in the club building a 1/4 scale V8 and he is using minature roller chain for driving the cams. This would be an alternative to using a timing belt.

I always thought that a 1/4 scale cosworth DFV would be a neat project. Maybe someday!

[Stevie]

I always thought that a 1/4 scale cosworth DFV would be a neat project. Maybe someday!

They won't help you; but there might be a 2nd option as many were re-built by other companies other than Cosworth themselves

[RotarySMP]

Hi Stevie,

I see you posted this yesterday, so you may be finished already , If not, have you seen the plans for the Whittle V8? Much smaller scale, but you might pick up ideas.

They are in the files section , along with a couple of other engines, in this Yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mlproj...Gas%20Engines/

[Stevie]

nope not finished yet; I've got a really bad cold; keeping up most of the night; no sleep!! hard to think
I have tons of other stuff on the go; the Gantry covers/limit switches and Mini mill servo conversion; this engine 3D design project is when I have a min or 2 free

[RotarySMP]

Sorry to hear that. Hope you get well soon.

Have you built small engines before? Maybe a single cylinder proof of concept would be appropriate before diving into the V10?

[Stevie]

I have made a couple but a long time ago; 2 stokes
But your idea has merit; might make Vtwin based on the V10; it would prove lots of things and might save a ton of time overall

[turmite]

Steve and others,

I'm curious about the power of the little 1/4 scale engines and don't know any better than to ask! What kind of power can be expected from something like this?

Mike

[fyffe555]

Stevie,

Excellent project - I'd really like to see that. If it's to the same standard as your machines it will be excellent. I have a friend who's a design Draftsman at Judd's in the UK. I'll drop him a mail and see what he can come up with.

Renault tried a 72 and a 110 degree bank angle but settled like everyone else to 90 degree . All run 72 degree pin cranks.

What do you intend to do about bearings? A one piece crank with six mains and five pins is a lot of bearings. Are you thinking split shell or roller?

One trick the big boys use is to have the cylinder banks in line for balance, and use forked rods or offset small ends. In the merlin engine where there wasn't the same level of bearing tech as there is today the cylinder, piston and rod where all on the same centre and one rod end of each pair was forked around the other. With a steel backed babbit running all the way through - advantage here was because of the firing cycle each rod effectively got twice the bearing area over that the style used in the chevy v8's.

Are you going to run a liner in the bores? It would probably be simpler to have the crankcase, blocks and heads seperate and use crankcase studs through the blocks and heads.. If you run a liner, either CI or steel then you could run the liners wet for cooling by simply undercutting the blocks.


Turmite; approximate comparision motoguzzi had a 500cc v8 in 1956 that produced 75hp, honda's 250 six produced 60hp, there's a 1/5 scale merlin turning a 24x12 three bladed prop at over 2000 rpm - that's at least 20hp EDIT: Opps that should be 34x12....


this stuff is great...

Andrew

[Carel]

And then there were the 1967-1968 3 cylinder DOHC 12-valve Honda 50cc and Suzuki 50cc two-stroke 3-cilinder. The parts of these real racing engines would have to small for this model-project!

Carel