[Joe T]

All,

I purchased a used CNT MOTION Series 1000 router a few months back. It is a single spindle 3-axis machine. The table is 6' x 12' with a 36" Z stroke. I have it up and running and am currently working the 'learning curve.'

I have very little information on this router other than the WinCNC 'manual' and some notes from CNT. The WinCNC manual is barely a reference manual, not something that tells one how to operate the machine.

I would like to communicate with others who have similar machines. Perhaps we can exchange ideas, etc. on how to best operate these machines.

If interested, pm me.

Regards,
Joe T.

[gfacer2]

My brother runs a cnt but I think a lot of their machines are fairly custom, like yours, so you'll need to be a bit more specific of what sort of help you need and what your system consists of exactly. That is one massive z!

Anyhow, his user ID is gfacer but not sure how often he is on (I'm not on too often either but working through some issues on my machine).

Good luck with the used machine - they are an adventure!

[Joe T]

gfacer2,

Thank you for the response.

I have a number of questions. Most have to do with the G/M/L codes.

WinCNC is not standard ISO G-Code control software. That is not unusual. But, most control software is a close cousin to Fanuc. WinCNC ain't even a 'kissin' cousin.'

Unlike Fanuc, one does not set up 'work zero/local zero/work coordinate system' (I think all three of these terms are the same) using the G54, G55, G56, or G57 commands. These commands allow the establishment of Local Zeros ahead of running the program.

There seems to be a much different method for the CNT Motion/WinCNC machines. CNT Motion has a pull down menu called 'SETTINGS' which has several sub-menus. Some are obvious such as 'Tool Positions.' But, what is the purpose of the 'Home Positions' and 'Positions?' What is the difference in those two selections????

Instead of the Fanuc standard of G54/55/56/57 codes, WinCNC uses either the G92 X#Y#Z# or G92.1 X#Y#Z#. When I want to establish a Local Zero, I have to use the following G-codes:

G0 H3 (Go rapid to Home #3 which is a pre-set position, usually without the Z#)
G90 (establishes the absolute coordinate system/movement)
G92 X# Y# (establishes the new 'Local Zero/Part Zero' at the H3 position)
F100 (sets feedrate at 100 in/min)
G1 X# Y# Z# (go at feedrate F100 to position X# Y# Z# from the G92 X# Y# and Z0 as the starting absolute reference position)
Etc.

This G92 X# Y# Z# command is a modal command and stays in force until it is turned off. One turns it off by having another 'plain' G92 command (no x# Y# Z#) at the end of a process/operation. For instance, after the first operation of roughing is completed and it is time for a tool change, the code requires a G92 command to go back to the Machine coordinates BEFORE ANY ADDITIONAL MOVEMENT!!!! If you don't have that G92 command in the code at the correct block number, then the machine cannot find the tool changer! It will overextend one or more axes and could cause damage. Don't ask me how I know that - - - -

OK, remembering to add a G92 in the code after each operation is not a big deal. But, what if you have to abort a program somewhere? If you do not IMMEDIATELY enter a G92 command in the command line, you are in trouble once you start some other command such as Home (G28), or tool change, T#.

Those are the kind of questions I need help understanding. There has to be a better way. The CNT folks, apparently, do not have an operator's manual which explains the basics of operating the machine.

I would also like to talk to someone about the lubrication system on the machine. I have some leaks.

I hope the above made some sense.

Regards,
Joe T.

[gfacer2]

Well, I'd pm Greg (gfacer) and ask him. In know you can google a wincnc manual very easily as I looked at it last week when we were discussing an issue he had with scalloped edges. But otherwise I've only been even an operator on that machine for a few weeks. But I do recall g92 being common and there were some quirks. Enough quirks that I hesitate to want to have a machine with wincnc myself though I recently priced out a camaster scorpion that uses wincnc. I guess I hope it got better.

[stucapco]

Forgive me, I do not have this machine (very cool BTW). G92 is NOT modal, how can you turn it off? It is simply changed, never off. G91 G28 Z0? By chance is G30 an option here? Much quicker, easier to use, over all cleaner in it's operation. I'm just throwing an idea out there.

Luck.

edit:

G30 Z0;
G92 Z0; (hey hey, it's home and knows it)

Just a thought.

[Joe T]

Well, I'd pm Greg (gfacer) and ask him. In know you can google a wincnc manual very easily as I looked at it last week when we were discussing an issue he had with scalloped edges. But otherwise I've only been even an operator on that machine for a few weeks. But I do recall g92 being common and there were some quirks. Enough quirks that I hesitate to want to have a machine with wincnc myself though I recently priced out a camaster scorpion that uses wincnc. I guess I hope it got better.

Thanks again for the reply.

I have the 2010 and now the 2013 WinCNC manual and have studied them a lot. I am no expert, but I have a pretty good understanding of the commands.

The WinCNC manual is, at most, a reference document. It really has no explanation of how to use the various 'commands.' By that, I mean it does not show syntax, programming methods, associated commands, etc. Also, it seems that it does not even list all of the macros available.

Joe T.

[Joe T]

Forgive me, I do not have this machine (very cool BTW). G92 is NOT modal, how can you turn it off? It is simply changed, never off. G91 G28 Z0? By chance is G30 an option here? Much quicker, easier to use, over all cleaner in it's operation. I'm just throwing an idea out there.

Luck.

edit:

G30 Z0;
G92 Z0; (hey hey, it's home and knows it)

Just a thought.

From the WinCNC 2013 manual:

"G92 Set Local Coordinates - G92 X# Y# Z#

Used to specify a new coordinate system for running absolute mode programs. Use G92 alone to restore Machine Coordinates. G92 X0 Y0 Z0 W0 sets the current position to zero. G92 then restores the Machine Coordinates Values.

**If running a .tap, .mac, .nc, etc. file, and there is a G92 in the file. and the user wishes to maintain that G92 after the file is done and closed, then a L92 must be added at the end of the file."

I don't know if one should consider G92 'modal' or not, but it seems to act that way.

There is no G30 in the WinCNC manual. Also, typical spindle macros such as M3, M4, M5 are not listed in the manual, either. But, some are recognized by WinCNC and operate to call subroutines for spindle action.

Again, thanks for the help. I really wish WinCNC or CNT MOTION produced a good 'operator's' manual. Haas and Denford have EXCELLENT manuals online. Unfortunately, both of those machines use a variant of Fanuc code. Those machines use G54/55/56/57 for work offsets. That is pretty typical of the industry. WinCNC doesn't.

As an example of WinCNC's G54:

"G54 G54 Workspace - Rotational: G54 X# Y#

Select the Z head. If G54 is commanded from G55, G56, or G57 mode, the Z head will be moved to the current XY position."

Substitute W head for G55, U head for G56, and V head for G57. WinCNC appears to use these commands for multi-spindle machines. Well, Fanuc will address multi-spindle machines. They use different G-Codes. Why did WinCNC decide to be different?

Regards,
Joe T.

[gfacer2]

Ahh, OK, yeah my centroid uses the g54 etc. So now I know what you mean.

We don't really use our machines with those, we always either make x0 y0 the corner of the table or based on each project set by the operator.

Yeah, camaster called wincnc the gold standard, and I laughed out loud a little. Maybe compared to mach3 but not integrated controls like centroid and haas fanuc etc.

[stucapco]

Forgive me, I do not have this machine (very cool BTW). G92 is NOT modal, how can you turn it off? It is simply changed, never off. G91 G28 Z0? By chance is G30 an option here? Much quicker, easier to use, over all cleaner in it's operation. I'm just throwing an idea out there.

Luck.

edit:

G30 Z0;
G92 Z0; (hey hey, it's home and knows it)

Just a thought.

I'm sorry. What I wanted to express was G53, it should read:

G53 Z0;
G92 Z0;

G28 Versus G53 : Modern Machine Shop

Where I say G30 in this post should read G53. I've been working so much I'm constantly tired. Work offsets (G54, G55, G56, etc) are a wonderful thing if the option is available.

Luck

[Joe T]

I'm sorry. What I wanted to express was G53, it should read:

G53 Z0;
G92 Z0;

G28 Versus G53 : Modern Machine Shop

Where I say G30 in this post should read G53. I've been working so much I'm constantly tired. Work offsets (G54, G55, G56, etc) are a wonderful thing if the option is available.

Luck

Humm, I am not sure how that would help - using G53.

According to the World of Garp -- ehh, I mean WinCNC:

"G53 Rapid Move - G53 X# Y# Z# W#


Moves to the position specified at rapid velocity, ignoring tool measures and local coordinates. G53 alone will lift all vertical or type 3 axis."

Please educate me. I am new to this stuff.

Joe T.

[gfacer2]

Joe, just had a thought - you should look at the camasters forum - they use wincnc on their machines and have a fairly active forum. Might at least get some information searching there.

GF

[Joe T]

Joe, just had a thought - you should look at the camasters forum - they use wincnc on their machines and have a fairly active forum. Might at least get some information searching there.

GF

Thank you. Is that a sub-forum of this site or ???

Regards,
Joe T.

[stucapco]

This is NOT my quote.

G53 is much easier to understand and use. It is a simple motion command, like G00 or G01, but with G53, the origin for the motion is the machine’s zero return position and the motion will occur at rapid. Here is the command to rapid the Z axis to the zero return position:

G53 Z0

As you might expect, most programmers that understand both methods prefer G53 over G28. However, G53 hasn’t been around as long as G28. Additionally, some machine tool builders never made G53 part of their standard package of G codes when they bought controls from FANUC. This means you may have machines that do not allow G53 (without purchasing G53 from FANUC). Even though G53 may be better, G28 is more universal. If you want to use one method that will work on all machines, you may be stuck with G28.

One more advantage of G53 is that the zero return position does not have to be the destination point. Consider, for example, how you position a turning center’s turret to a safe index position prior to a turret index. You may determine, for example, that the safe index position is at the zero return position in X but 8 inches from the zero return position in Z (closer to the chuck/workpiece). This command will send the X and Z axes directly to the safe index position:

G53 X0 Z-8.0

Remember that the origin for G53 is the zero return position, and since the zero return position is usually at the extreme plus end of each axis, commanded positions will almost always be negative.

This technique can also be helpful with machining centers that have pallet changers and when the pallet change position is a precise distance from the zero return position in one or more axes. For a machine with which the pallet change position is at the zero return position in X but 4 inches away from the zero return position in Y, this command sends the machine to its pallet change position:

G53 X0 Y-4.0

The G53 command has its advantages over G28, but both can be used to get machine axes on FANUC-controlled machines back to the zero return position when required.

It's a great read from...

G28 Versus G53 : Modern Machine Shop

I've read it a dozen times, I found it worth reading.

Luck.

[gfacer2]

I think its camheads.org?

[Joe T]

This is NOT my quote.

G53 is much easier to understand and use. It is a simple motion command, like G00 or G01, but with G53, the origin for the motion is the machine’s zero return position and the motion will occur at rapid. Here is the command to rapid the Z axis to the zero return position:

G53 Z0

As you might expect, most programmers that understand both methods prefer G53 over G28. However, G53 hasn’t been around as long as G28. Additionally, some machine tool builders never made G53 part of their standard package of G codes when they bought controls from FANUC. This means you may have machines that do not allow G53 (without purchasing G53 from FANUC). Even though G53 may be better, G28 is more universal. If you want to use one method that will work on all machines, you may be stuck with G28.

One more advantage of G53 is that the zero return position does not have to be the destination point. Consider, for example, how you position a turning center’s turret to a safe index position prior to a turret index. You may determine, for example, that the safe index position is at the zero return position in X but 8 inches from the zero return position in Z (closer to the chuck/workpiece). This command will send the X and Z axes directly to the safe index position:

G53 X0 Z-8.0

Remember that the origin for G53 is the zero return position, and since the zero return position is usually at the extreme plus end of each axis, commanded positions will almost always be negative.

This technique can also be helpful with machining centers that have pallet changers and when the pallet change position is a precise distance from the zero return position in one or more axes. For a machine with which the pallet change position is at the zero return position in X but 4 inches away from the zero return position in Y, this command sends the machine to its pallet change position:

G53 X0 Y-4.0

The G53 command has its advantages over G28, but both can be used to get machine axes on FANUC-controlled machines back to the zero return position when required.

It's a great read from...

G28 Versus G53 : Modern Machine Shop

I've read it a dozen times, I found it worth reading.

Luck.

Thanks. It will take me a while to absorb all of this.

Regards,
Joe T.

- - - Updated - - -

I think its camheads.org?

Thank you. I will check it out.

Joe T.