[pwg1824]

Hi All,
I just wrapped up college and I'm exploring the possibility of making and selling a benchtop-class CNC mill. I've been involved with CNC tech for the last couple years and have designed and built a couple machines, to serve my own purposes. Right now, I'm doing some market research to better understand what the wants and needs are in the benchtop mill/router arena. I've created a survey that will help me answer some of the fundamental questions.

For those of you who are interested in helping out with my research, here are links to my survey. The survey is in two parts, so please complete both parts. There are 18 questions and should only take 5-10 minutes. The great thing is you don't have to log in or input any personal information. It is entirely anonymous.

Survey Part 1: CNC Market Survey - Part 1

Survey Part 2: CNC Market Survey - Part 2

Many thanks to all of you who choose to participate!! And please feel free to leave thought/comments as posts on this thread too. Anything at all is much appreciated!

-Peter G.

[effimos]

done :cheers:

[RPCElectronics]

Done.

One thing I would like to comment on is I have looked long and hard at some of the sub $2K machine coming from China. I am really gun shy because of not knowing the quality, support and if the damn thing will even work at all. It's just not a gamble am I willing to take at this moment.

[pwg1824]

Thanks to those of you who have so far completed the survey!

RPCElecrtronics, I can relate to your hesitancy. I recently purchased a manual mini mill (from one of the overseas companies) and converted it to CNC. Right out of the box I was pretty disappointed. Slop in the ways, copious amounts of backlash in the screws, and so on. I had fairly low expectations when I purchased it, but not that low. I did some tweaking and modification. But even to get that thing to perform up to a reasonable standard I would have to spend another $1200-$1700 (almost twice what the machine cost to begin with) and invest some serious time into it.

[SPyKERMods]

And I finsihed both as well. Good luck!

[speedydumpster]

It seems like there are a couple things missing from the market.
1. The machines on the market today are not designed to be CNC'd. I have a RF45, and it takes a TON of time to CNC one of these guys.
Realistically, here are the things commonly needed for a 3x CNC mill
1. Limit switches - 2 per axis. home switches - 1 per axis - Optical for metal cutting, proximity for wood cutting - These should be covered and in a place that won't collect chips/coolant
2. Integrated motor mounts - incorporating belt drives directly in castings - motor covers, etc.
3. Support for 1 shot oiling system if needed.
4. It also makes me ill when I can push on the top of the column and see the dial indicator spin a couple thou...

I would pay about double to have just purchased a machine that is already set up for being CNC'd, so then I could have just put motors and belts on it and had it ready to go.

China already has the market for the cheap stuff, so if you are doing it on a budget, they have that already cornered....

Even the Industrial Hobbies mill, which is the best benchtop cnc mill that I know of, doesn't have a "good" solution... It has a bunch of bandaids and brackets.... If you are going to develop your own castings, why not put the Y axis motor mount in back, and why not put the limit and home switches in a place where they can't get filled with chips/coolant or not get killed by a vise.

That being said.... I'm new to the CNC DIY market. I still can't get my own mill turned right - limited to 40 ipm right now - have to figure out how to tune it to get my 150-200 ipm, but I have different specs than many others out there.
1. I wanted ballscrews, not leadscrews.
2. I'm went with brushless AC servos - more expensive but also closed loop.
3. I have probably spent 5-6k or so. 2k for machine and some tools, 1500 on drives and controller, 600 in motors, couple hundred in belt drives, materials, incidentals, and several hundred in tooling, vices, etc.

[wizard]

That is there is a huge jump in costs associated with building a mechanically quality machine vs what the Chinese put out in this category. In the end if you want to do a machine that is well put together it will cost more. More than many are willing to pay. After all there is already a number of manufactures making quality machines, these are just priced out of reach for many users.

Like another poster I agree that there is a need for properly designed machines that are structured for CNC only operation. Not only do the machines need to be designed for CNC the should be designed to be built on CNC equipment. The goal being to minimize production costs.

No afterthoughts either. For example a small CNC lathe should have the need for a tool turret considered and a clean installation path for the actual turret as an option. Every lathe user has different requirements of course but having such a system designed in from the beginning might not be a bad idea. Samethingnwith a mill and tool changer. Oh and for something like the mill don't be afraid to use non mainstream tapers. ISO defines a very useful taper size for smaller machines that should be getting more traction in industry. Use these standards to realize affordable and cost effective low end solutions.

I'm not a big fan of surveys but I might just take a look. The problem is surveys seldom get to the bottom of anything and often confuse matters.

Thanks to those of you who have so far completed the survey!

RPCElecrtronics, I can relate to your hesitancy. I recently purchased a manual mini mill (from one of the overseas companies) and converted it to CNC. Right out of the box I was pretty disappointed. Slop in the ways, copious amounts of backlash in the screws, and so on. I had fairly low expectations when I purchased it, but not that low. I did some tweaking and modification. But even to get that thing to perform up to a reasonable standard I would have to spend another $1200-$1700 (almost twice what the machine cost to begin with) and invest some serious time into it.

[wizard]

For example what's with the three category of mills? The mill should be constructed as well as its size and economics allow for. It is then the users responsibility to determine if an operation is to much for the machine. You might build a nice little bench top CNC mill with an 8x8" working area. Maybe all it can handle in steel is an 1/8" endmill. That doesn't make it less of a mill just that it has a limitation like any mill does.

[pwg1824]

Wizard and speedydumpster, great insights, thanks. You both touch on machines where the customer seems responsible for supplying the motors, drives, software, etc... And they install them themselves. Is this what many people would prefer over, say, a CNC machine that came with all the motors, drives, etc... already installed and configured?

Again, thanks for the great comments!

[109jb]

I disagree with some of the posts here. Not all machines have to be designed for tool turrets, or made specifically for CNC. A CNC converted mill or lathe with quick change tooling will work fine for most hobby machinists. If that is the market you are shooting for then you don't need a machine designed with a tool changer. Just like you don't need to design a sedan to haul stuff. There is a totally different product for that called a truck. If someone is marketing a CNC mill drill I personally would have no expectation that it would be equipped with a toolchanger. Same for a small CNC lathe. Now if one were available it would be a plus but not necessary.

There are people that expect that every option be available, but that just isn't the case. Take cars for example. We have a cheap economy car that was very low cost, didn't have a ton of options, couldn't get a leather interior, couldn't get a navigation system, couldn't get XM radio from the factory, etc. Guess what. We bought it anyway because we weren't in the market for all that stuff. If we had been, we would have been looking at other makes and models that have that covered. A CNC mill is no exception. There is a market for everything from individual components for the true DIY'er, bolt-on conversion kits for the less ambitious, turn key conversions for those that want to be running right away, and yes there is also a market for the purpose built CNC with box ways, tool changer, enclosure, through spindle coolant, the whole 9 yards. It all depends on your target market. Obviously the investment in development is going to be higher for the machine with all the bells and whistles. II would say that you could get into it at the lower end and then advance with options or even different machines down the road.

For some background, I was a CNC machinist for many years before going back to college to get an engineering degree. Even with that background, a toolchanger on a CNC mill or lathe would just be cool for my use. It would not be necessary at all.

[wizard]

Wizard and speedydumpster, great insights, thanks. You both touch on machines where the customer seems responsible for supplying the motors, drives, software, etc... And they install them themselves. Is this what many people would prefer over, say, a CNC machine that came with all the motors, drives, etc... already installed and configured?

Again, thanks for the great comments!

Maybe I didn't get my point across. What I was trying to express is that the machines should be designed for CNC from the ground up. Personally I would rather see the machines available both ways, that is with and without the controls. Generally you will be better off cost wise with a machine ready to go. The big if there is that you need the machine driven by the type of controller people want. Then there is the people needing to customize a machine. So I see no difference here between you and TAIG or Sherline, give people options.

In any event I hope you can separate the ideas above from the idea that we would be far better off with a machine specialized for CNC. For one it saves on expenses due to unneeded hardware. Further a properly laid out machine is an easier machine to work with or modify.

[wizard]

I disagree with some of the posts here.
Not all machines have to be designed for tool turrets, or made specifically for CNC.

That was the whole point of the thread. The original poster is researching what is wanted in the way of bench top CNC mills.

A CNC converted mill or lathe with quick change tooling will work fine for most hobby machinists. If that is the market you are shooting for then you don't need a machine designed with a tool changer.

Well I tend to disagree. For one many hobbiests do make use of tool changers. More importantly these machines are being successfully employees by small businesses. It isn't much of a stretch to make a bench top mill and then make a good sized router using the same tooling.

Just like you don't need to design a sedan to haul stuff. There is a totally different product for that called a truck. If someone is marketing a CNC mill drill I personally would have no expectation that it would be equipped with a toolchanger. Same for a small CNC lathe. Now if one were available it would be a plus but not necessary.

That is the whole point behind designing in the capability to be sold possibly as an add on. My point is that if you think about the capability up front you will save your self grief down the road implementing the capability that many would want.

There are people that expect that every option be available, but that just isn't the case. Take cars for example. We have a cheap economy car that was very low cost, didn't have a ton of options, couldn't get a leather interior, couldn't get a navigation system, couldn't get XM radio from the factory, etc. Guess what. We bought it anyway because we weren't in the market for all that stuff. If we had been, we would have been looking at other makes and models that have that covered. A CNC mill is no exception.

Buying industrial equipment is all about options, there is no reason why we can have options in new bench top hardware.

There is a market for everything from individual components for the true DIY'er, bolt-on conversion kits for the less ambitious, turn key conversions for those that want to be running right away, and yes there is also a market for the purpose built CNC with box ways, tool changer, enclosure, through spindle coolant, the whole 9 yards. It all depends on your target market. Obviously the investment in development is going to be higher for the machine with all the bells and whistles. II would say that you could get into it at the lower end and then advance with options or even different machines down the road.

For some background, I was a CNC machinist for many years before going back to college to get an engineering degree. Even with that background, a toolchanger on a CNC mill or lathe would just be cool for my use. It would not be necessary at all.

It wouldn't be needed by a lot of people. On the other hand such a capability can be effectively put to good use. Thereis no reason not to have the option. Think about it some people buy a truck with a 490 engine and a low speed rear end and tow their house around. Others get buy with a 2 wheel drive V6.

[691175002]

I think tormach has a good model going. I think a similar kind of thing but in a price/performance range that competes with, for example, g0704 and RF-45 conversions would appeal more to people who would like a capable CNC machine without going through the work of starting from scratch.

[wizard]

In fact along with their own machine they now list Tormach machines. So even in these slow times there is demand for this sort of hardware. These are purpose built CNC machines that work well within their capabilities.

I think tormach has a good model going. I think a similar kind of thing but in a price/performance range that competes with, for example, g0704 and RF-45 conversions would appeal more to people who would like a capable CNC machine without going through the work of starting from scratch.

You also have the issue of needing a shop or access to one to do your own conversion. You also need a bit of electrical skill. Not everybody wants to bother with a controller build up even if the mechanical issues are not a problem. There are many good reasons to want a reasonable pre built CNC machine. Further many buyers have very specific uses in mind, a custom build just puts them farther away from whatever it is that they want to accomplish.

The biggest problem with CNC machines, bench top sized, is getting potential buyers to accept the "additional costs". I quote that because CNC can often be cheaper if one is just starting out. I'm actually a bit perplexed that Grizzly hasn't jumped on a bench top CNC machine yet. Hopefully that is because Griz is designing a machine that is very economical and purposely designed for CNC.

[109jb]

That was the whole point of the thread. The original poster is researching what is wanted in the way of bench top CNC mills.

Well I tend to disagree. For one many hobbiests do make use of tool changers. More importantly these machines are being successfully employees by small businesses. It isn't much of a stretch to make a bench top mill and then make a good sized router using the same tooling.

That is the whole point behind designing in the capability to be sold possibly as an add on. My point is that if you think about the capability up front you will save your self grief down the road implementing the capability that many would want.

Buying industrial equipment is all about options, there is no reason why we can have options in new bench top hardware.



It wouldn't be needed by a lot of people. On the other hand such a capability can be effectively put to good use. Thereis no reason not to have the option. Think about it some people buy a truck with a 490 engine and a low speed rear end and tow their house around. Others get buy with a 2 wheel drive V6.

Yes there is a reason not to have it in the begining. Development cost!! This young man is right out of college wanting to get started and what you are proposing is not a trivial task to develop a purpose built CNC with all options.

Many hobby CNC'ers probably do use tool changers, but what percentage? I'd guess that number is less than 2 percent. As soon as you are making money it is no longer a hobby machine.

[pwg1824]

Development costs are certainly a huge consideration. I don't expect to obtain a large amount of capital to get this off the the ground. My goal was to start small and let things grow organically, reinvesting profits to scale up. It's sounding like the best option, given the feedback I'm hearing,and it sounds like there is a market for those simply interested in a basic machine. At the same time, there is a market for people who want some of the bells and whistles, though those bells and whistles may vary from person to person, and it's certainly not a one size fits all scenario. Given that I'd like to keep initial development costs low, the best option may be to start with a very basic (yet still purpose built) CNC with provisions for cleanly integrating add-ons down the road, as time/money permits me to develop them. That way, if someone just wants a basic machine they have it. If someone wants a more advanced machine, they can have that too. Either way, the machine would be designed to look very professional, not like it had a bunch of bolt-on "afterthoughts" or a bunch of gaping holes where equipment was supposed to go. Of course, to design something like that you almost need to know what the complete, end product will be before you can even begin....

Trying to keep things simple brings up another question. Obviously, as the complexity of the machine increases so will the need for customer support. Customer support will make or break a company, so i want to be capable of offering outstanding support. For the first offering, I'm inclined to go very simple, so as not to over extend and be overwhelmed by dealing with mass amounts of customer support by myself, leaving no time to develop new ideas. I originally intended to do a basic turn key machine, complete with spindle, motors, control software (initially would be third party like Mach 3 or something). This approach stemmed from what I wanted in a machine 2 years ago when I began looking. I knew next to nothing about what it took to build a machine and I had a hard time finding a turn key system for less than $7k. My thoughts are, there must be plenty of folks out there who want an easy to use, low cost machine that didn't require two years of learning, loads of money, and failed attempts to obtain. That said, I've been noticing that "ease of use" is not one of the high scoring attributes in the survey, much to my surprise, even though a lot of folks fairly new to CNC are participating...(any thoughts from you guys on why this is the case?) So, now to my question: if a basic machine were offered that was completely CNC ready but without the motors and control software (and maybe even without a spindle, yet with provisions for the buyer to add one) would there be a market? This would offer The customer a purpose built CNC machine but allow them the flexibility of installing their choice of motors, software, spindle, etc. What are your thoughts?

Eventually, I would love to offer a turn key machine with plenty of bells and whistles, but that requires a company base to support it, which I still have yet to grow.

[wizard]

Yes there is a reason not to have it in the begining. Development cost!! This young man is right out of college wanting to get started and what you are proposing is not a trivial task to develop a purpose built CNC with all options.

Honestly it isn't that much more difficult than trying to produce a manual machine. In some ways it is actually easier. As to options you make provision for them up front so that you can evolve your product line over time.

Many hobby CNC'ers probably do use tool changers, but what percentage? I'd guess that number is less than 2 percent. As soon as you are making money it is no longer a hobby machine.

Why are you hung up on the tool changer? These days it is simple technology that is well understood. It is an option any CNC machine should have. Note the word option.

As to the word Hobby, well I've known people with all sorts of "hobbies" that also generated a bit of cash. If you have a farm you work for relaxation, apart from your main employment it is a hobby.

[wizard]

Development costs are certainly a huge consideration. I don't expect to obtain a large amount of capital to get this off the the ground. My goal was to start small and let things grow organically, reinvesting profits to scale up.

It will be extremely tough to get going without some capital. This kills more business efforts than you can imagine. Further due to the competition from China and established American manufactures it will be tough to exploit large margins to build the company.

It's sounding like the best option, given the feedback I'm hearing,and it sounds like there is a market for those simply interested in a basic machine.

A basic machine is certainly appealing. You look at things like a Taig as a basic machine, three axis and a spindle.

At the same time, there is a market for people who want some of the bells and whistles, though those bells and whistles may vary from person to person, and it's certainly not a one size fits all scenario.

Machine tools are seldom one size fits all. The trick is finding a mix of features that attracts a large audience.

Given that I'd like to keep initial development costs low, the best option may be to start with a very basic (yet still purpose built) CNC with provisions for cleanly integrating add-ons down the road, as time/money permits me to develop them.

This is my expectation, move forward with a basic platform and then move on. Just make sure you have a plan for installation of some of the options that people will want. One example is flood coolant and how to do that on a small platform. Something as simple as a standardized bolt pattern on the head to mount nozzles and other goodies would be appreciated by many.

That way, if someone just wants a basic machine they have it. If someone wants a more advanced machine, they can have that too. Either way, the machine would be designed to look very professional, not like it had a bunch of bolt-on "afterthoughts" or a bunch of gaping holes where equipment was supposed to go. Of course, to design something like that you almost need to know what the complete, end product will be before you can even begin....

No one can predict the future, that is one reason why milling machines have tee slots.

Trying to keep things simple brings up another question. Obviously, as the complexity of the machine increases so will the need for customer support. Customer support will make or break a company, so i want to be capable of offering outstanding support.

These words are very true and frankly it is a lot tougher to deliver than many imagine.

For the first offering, I'm inclined to go very simple, so as not to over extend and be overwhelmed by dealing with mass amounts of customer support by myself, leaving no time to develop new ideas.

Well you certainly need to find the right niche. Further more than one machine would be a distraction at launch.

I originally intended to do a basic turn key machine, complete with spindle, motors, control software (initially would be third party like Mach 3 or something). This approach stemmed from what I wanted in a machine 2 years ago when I began looking. I knew next to nothing about what it took to build a machine and I had a hard time finding a turn key system for less than $7k.

Being able to ship a machine that just needs to be plugged in is huge. trying to keep the controller compact enough to do that is a bit more complicated.

My thoughts are, there must be plenty of folks out there who want an easy to use, low cost machine that didn't require two years of learning, loads of money, and failed attempts to obtain. That said, I've been noticing that "ease of use" is not one of the high scoring attributes in the survey, much to my surprise, even though a lot of folks fairly new to CNC are participating...(any thoughts from you guys on why this is the case?)

CNC machines themselves aren't complicated, but they aren't exactly something the average person can walk up to and get any results. The problem is "ease of use" is not a machine issue but rather a software issue. That is an entirely different business.

It has been a 12 hour day at work and I fear I'm not making myself clear. The thing here is that CNC machines aren't hard to use. What is hard is getting your idea into G-code for the machine to process. In some ways a CNC machine isn't much different than a printer. Both connect to a computer and are instructed to do something. Yeah a CNC machine requires more involvement on the users part, but the hrd part isn't that, it is finding a simple way to realize that idea in G-Code. So if your goal is ease of use, I think you are going to become more of a software company than you originally planned.

So, now to my question: if a basic machine were offered that was completely CNC ready but without the motors and control software (and maybe even without a spindle, yet with provisions for the buyer to add one) would there be a market? This would offer The customer a purpose built CNC machine but allow them the flexibility of installing their choice of motors, software, spindle, etc. What are your thoughts?

There must Be something of a market there as Taig and others essentially do just that. That is the sell platforms that the buyer needs to motor up. However I'm not sure you can successfully start up offering only DIY hardware. Any such offerings would need to be in addition to the mainstream solution.

Eventually, I would love to offer a turn key machine with plenty of bells and whistles, but that requires a company base to support it, which I still have yet to grow.

Machine tool companies are well known for never including all the bells and whistles. They grow the company buy charging big time for simple features that customers want. Some times those features cost multiple thousands and only require a field engineer to flip a bit in a CNC configuration file. 👿

What I'm trying to say is that it would be nice to see a company offer up such a turn key solution. However it might be a lot harder to grow a company and even remain profitable if that machine doesn't have the margins required to grow the company. In any event the machines currently on the market seem to indicate a strong demand for basic, get me started CNC machines.

[cyclestart]

That said, I've been noticing that "ease of use" is not one of the high scoring attributes in the survey, much to my surprise, even though a lot of folks fairly new to CNC are participating...(any thoughts from you guys on why this is the case?

If this poll was on the Popular Science website "ease of use" may have ranked higher. The big cnc learning curve is on the software side, control + CAD/CAM. There is no "easy" outside of 2.5D work with a conversational control, and even that easy comes with experience. At least that's what came to my mind when "ease of use" came up, These things aren't kitchen appliances You may have been thinking more along the line of "convenience of features" ?

There are quite a few (relatively) low price CNC mills available these days and at least one more 45ish machine in developement (thinking MachineToolsWarehouse). As a consumer the more the merrier but as a builder it might be less merry.