[instructor37]

I've been corresponding with JT about the new machine for 2010. We are considering upgrading our units to VFD drives.
For 2010 the machines have been re-designed
1. Lathe and mill spindle motors are 3 phase Variable Frequency Drives
2. All power feeds and threading are done by stepper motors- no more gearboxes
3. Cross slide travel is increased to 12"
By eliminating the gearboxes and the belt change mechanisms for the spindles, JT says over 300 parts and 100# have been removed from the machine.
I believe the VFD drives can be controlled by Mach III input for speed changes on the fly as well.
There are a bunch of other smaller changes too.
Attached are a couple photos JT sent me.

[Fast01]

That looks real nice. I called JT last month because when I was changing the change gears to change the feed rate the keyed sleeves basically crumbled in my hands. He said that that has been a problem in the past and if I send him the pieces he would make up some new ones for me, but I'm lazy and never did. I've got CNC, so I figured I'd just use the jog for power feed if I'm running manual, but I really like this set-up and would love to upgrade. Unfortunately, I can't really justify it right now.

[GITERDUN]

I've been corresponding with JT about the new machine for 2010. We are considering upgrading our units to VFD drives.
For 2010 the machines have been re-designed
1. Lathe and mill spindle motors are 3 phase Variable Frequency Drives
2. All power feeds and threading are done by stepper motors- no more gearboxes
3. Cross slide travel is increased to 12"
By eliminating the gearboxes and the belt change mechanisms for the spindles, JT says over 300 parts and 100# have been removed from the machine.
I believe the VFD drives can be controlled by Mach III input for speed changes on the fly as well.
There are a bunch of other smaller changes too.
Attached are a couple photos JT sent me.

I called Shoptask about the system and the controller is a solid state unit that converts single phase to 3 phase. They say that this system is better than DC drive because the motors run at full voltage all the time and the speed is varied by changing the frequency. The controller works with either 110 or 220 volt single phase input.

[bowman1964]

well i have one on order now for 3 months, the units will require 220v 20 amp circuit to operate. i speak to JT about once a week. i was wiring my shop this past weekend. last i told they are out on the water heading in on a container ship.

[dgapilot]

Has anyone asked JT if he is going to offer an upgrade kit for older machines? I'd like to upgrade my Bridgemill, but not sure I can justify the expense. I'm set up for CNC, so all I'm interested in is the VFD drives and spindle motors.

[TomB]

I called Shoptask about the system and the controller is a solid state unit that converts single phase to 3 phase. They say that this system is better than DC drive because the motors run at full voltage all the time and the speed is varied by changing the frequency. The controller works with either 110 or 220 volt single phase input.

I have just finished installing two VFDs on my ski mountain. They are way bigger than we are talking here (200 and 300 hp) but the theory is the same. These devices are the best thing that ever happened to motor control. Internally they convert any power in to DC then use SRCs to build an AC output at whatever frequency you select. Typically they adjust the voltage to keep the current about constant as the motor speed is varied. Because motor torque is proportional to winding current motor torque can be managed as the motor is slowed. I got in trouble on another forum for saying it is constant torque. Think of it as quite close to that for most of the range (it’s actually a quadratic that is somewhat adjustable.)

The key point is that the user, designer or the controller can adjust the motor performance to the load. In my case being able to run the motor at 57 Hz rather than 60 Hz matched the motor torque to the pump torque and that will save big bucks. I expect to pay for the VFDs with electric savings in less than two seasons. I plan to convert my TriPower to VFDs as soon as I get a chance (for me that means in the spring when business ends for the year.)

[bowman1964]

The only concern i am having right now is making sure the new machine will cut threads reliable. Without have some type of gear set keeping the spindle and feed constant.
I totally understand how the stepper will be a great feature to the machine for the feed, But without some way to keep the spindle at the exact same speed I don’t see how I can cut threads reliable. And you will only be able to cut threads using a computer program to control it. no more manual control as I can see it. a stepper will keep the feed the same each pass ,but what keeps the VFD at the precise same speed so each pass will stay in the center of the thread you are cutting.

Am I looking at this wrong?

[instructor37]

The only concern i am having right now is making sure the new machine will cut threads reliable. Without have some type of gear set keeping the spindle and feed constant.
I totally understand how the stepper will be a great feature to the machine for the feed, But without some way to keep the spindle at the exact same speed I don’t see how I can cut threads reliable. And you will only be able to cut threads using a computer program to control it. no more manual control as I can see it. a stepper will keep the feed the same each pass ,but what keeps the VFD at the precise same speed so each pass will stay in the center of the thread you are cutting.

Am I looking at this wrong?

The way I understand it is that the lathe spindle has an optical sensor, and the MachIII software starts each pass when it receives a signal from this sensor. In this way, each pass is always started at the same rotational position of the spindle. Combined with the programmed start stop position of the carriage, you will always go through the same pass. I would guess that MachIII also adjusts the stepper speed as the spindle slows down under load, also getting the signal from the optical sensor.

[bowman1964]

Well i hope you are right, i have alot of threading to do when my machine arrives.
now one more good thing with the new model is since they are using steppers for the power feeds. i would think i would not need any other steppers to set it up for full cnc. this should make it less exspenive to convert it to full cnc control.

[gearhead dan]

Hi All,
I just received my 2010 Patriot with the VFD drives. I'd like to compare notes/observations with those of you who own one too. A couple questions off the bat: What amp rating are the stepper motors? Also, the manual I received is for the older system and has no instructions for operating the VFD keypad. Did anyone receive updated instructions? Lastly I'm wondering how easily the mill column can be raised/lowered using the motor drive. From the manual it looks like one component that was eliminated was the column height lever.

[bowman1964]

Hi All,
I just received my 2010 Patriot with the VFD drives. I'd like to compare notes/observations with those of you who own one too. A couple questions off the bat: What amp rating are the stepper motors? Also, the manual I received is for the older system and has no instructions for operating the VFD keypad. Did anyone receive updated instructions? Lastly I'm wondering how easily the mill column can be raised/lowered using the motor drive. From the manual it looks like one component that was eliminated was the column height lever.

well i asked john last week on the amp rating and i want to say he told me 3amp steppers were on order. i take it you didnt order ball screws? i spoke to john yesterday and mine was waiting on the right ball screws, seams they sent him right hand instead of left hand thread.

and congragulations:cheers:

please post a picture of your new toy.

last week john was waiting on decals.did yours have the new 2010 decals on it or is john sending them out later to you?

[instructor37]

Hi All,
I just received my 2010 Patriot with the VFD drives. I'd like to compare notes/observations with those of you who own one too. A couple questions off the bat: What amp rating are the stepper motors? Also, the manual I received is for the older system and has no instructions for operating the VFD keypad. Did anyone receive updated instructions? Lastly I'm wondering how easily the mill column can be raised/lowered using the motor drive. From the manual it looks like one component that was eliminated was the column height lever.

I spoke to JT about the upgrades and he said the factory has not yet supplied him with a printed VFD manual, but he does have them in PDF form.
Also the factory is behind on the new exploded views of the machine, so the shop manuals are not finished. Those will be mailed along with the printed VFD manuals.

[gearhead dan]

Thanks for the feedback. Its good to hear there are decals on the way as well as an updated manual. I did not order ball screws, but did order the 7 amp CNC system. I assume I've got the upgraded motors, but there's no labels on the motors to indicate this. Overall the system is pretty nice and I'm happy with it. I've also noticed a few adjustments that had to be made, particularly on the column height adjuster mechanism (the cast black box on the end of the mill head.) There was a lot of binding in this mechanism, so I pulled it apart. Turns out there are a couple bearing spacer adjustments that have to be dead on so as not to bind up. I also had to remove some burrs on the output shaft where the handle attaches before proper adjustment was possible. So a lot a little stuff, but its good to go through the system carefully before you plug it in and go. I'm currently thinking about a better way to raise and lower the mill head. If you look a the mechanism there are no bearings in the output shaft, so there's a lot of friction. I'd like to eliminate the output shaft and drive the acme screw with a stepper motor in the same plane. Of course this is the hard way to do it.

[gearhead dan]

When I get a chance I'll post some pics.

[bowman1964]

john told me he was hoping to have the decals on before they left. i told him from what i saw it needed some decals to help it out.

so since you have yours, how is the look and feel of the machine quaility wise?

[gearhead dan]

Hey Bowman,
The look and feel overall is decent. What I liked best is the feel of the y and x axes feeds. The lead screws are nice and precise. It feels like a Bridgeport. As for the cosmetics...well....there are a couple eye sores. In general the paint is decent as it has been clear coated for durability. What gets me is there are modifications to some of the finished panels that left big chips and bare spots in the finish. Most of these mods were done to clearance the new componentry. All this of can be touched up, so its not too big a deal, but it looks rough. Also, the column height adjustment gearbox is painted with what looks like a brush!!! This component seems to have been refitted/gutted of the earlier geared design, as there are multiple holes for gear axles and bare primer spots where covers where removed. Mechanically, I'm catching a lot of little things that have to be addressed i.e. a missing bolt here, a bearing adjustment that's too tight there, and so you will probably want to give the whole system a good inspection. Once its all setup, however, this will be a really nice tool. You can tell that there has been a lot of thought in the design.

Hope this helps

[bowman1964]

Hey Bowman,
The look and feel overall is decent. What I liked best is the feel of the y and x axes feeds. The lead screws are nice and precise. It feels like a Bridgeport. As for the cosmetics...well....there are a couple eye sores. In general the paint is decent as it has been clear coated for durability. What gets me is there are modifications to some of the finished panels that left big chips and bare spots in the finish. Most of these mods were done to clearance the new componentry. All this of can be touched up, so its not too big a deal, but it looks rough. Also, the column height adjustment gearbox is painted with what looks like a brush!!! This component seems to have been refitted/gutted of the earlier geared design, as there are multiple holes for gear axles and bare primer spots where covers where removed. Mechanically, I'm catching a lot of little things that have to be addressed i.e. a missing bolt here, a bearing adjustment that's too tight there, and so you will probably want to give the whole system a good inspection. Once its all setup, however, this will be a really nice tool. You can tell that there has been a lot of thought in the design.

Hope this helps

yes i knew from conversations with John he had to do the final changes to the machine. he had employees working on them because of the amount he was trying to get done and out. i am expecting mine to ship today or monday. and i hope they took there time with it. i was hoping i wouldnt have to tear the machine down and put it back together before i used it.my wife is getting tried of me being in the shop every day i get home...LOL.

did you get the cnc up and going. he told me there was everything needed but a computer. and did he send you software or do we have to download it ourselves?

[gearhead dan]

Hey Bowman,
I haven't had a chance to hook up the CNC yet, but everything should be there. I've got Bobcad too for CAD, so I may have to configure this to get it working.
I finally got 240 V service to the garage this weekend, and was able to make my first cuts on the lathe and mill. overall the system is really nice. I haven't figured out how the feeds work, so I'll have to get the VFD manual.
Expect the need to pull the chuck off to get the gum off the back side. This will allow the chuck to seat properly. Also you may need to mill the tool holders so they can be adjusted to the proper height. As is, mine were too tall. Order yourself a vice if you haven't already. A 4" would probably be best. I got a 6" and it maybe too big.

[bowman1964]

Gearhead i picked me up a nice 4" vice a few months ago. i was thinking 6 may be a little large.
take a picture and post,i would love to see how she looks. i spoke to John yesterday and he told me decals had not arrived yet but he would be sending them out to the ones that didnt get them put on.
have you called john and asked him about the manual yet?

[gearhead dan]

Hey Bowman,
Sorry to take so long to reply, but since I replied last I haven't received the manual yet. I actually emailed John and spoke to him over the phone and he'll be sending one out soon. The VFD drive is either a "Nowforever" or a "Goldstar." My system is a Nowforever. I've learned that those systems with CNC setup have received the stepper motor controller specific for the CNC (of course). This however means you don't have drive feeds unless you run in CNC. I believe there is an alternative control system for stepper motor drive feeds if you don't order the CNC.
The CNC / stepper drive systems are coming from Camtronics. Dan, the owner/developer, is super helpful and can answer alot of questions.

Dan