[heilcnc]

I THINK IN MY FIRST POST I SHOULD HAVE NOT SAID REPLACE SYIL SORRY

I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME WE IN THE USA START MAKING THINGS AGAIN WE CAN IF
SOME COMPANY STARTS DOING CAST IRON CASTINGS AGAIN THE MACHINES HAVE
HARDENED WAYS ON THE BIGGER MACHINES SO HOW MUCH MORE WOULD YOU PAY TO KEEP THIS COUNTRY OR YOUR FELLOW AMERICAN WORKING THE GERMANS DO IT WE NEED TO START OR THIS COUNTRY WILL FAIL CAN'T YOU ALL SEE THAT BY BUYING AND NOT SELLING TO OTHER COUNTRYS DOES NOT WORK IT DID TILL THE BILL CAME IN THE MAIL!!!!
PROBABLY NO ONE WILL HEAR ME BUT I HAD TO SAY THIS THANKS

[Hirudin]

Suggestion: Leave the caps lock key disabled next time. Also, some additional punctuation would make your message more clear.

I have a Taig now and I'm probably going to upgrade in the next couple years. I would love to buy a new, American made mill about the size of the IH mill. I'm afraid I wont be able to though for a couple reasons.
Do Bridgeport still make new machines? Are there any "benchtop" mills which are larger than the Taig actually manufactured in the USA?
How much more will one of these machines cost? It's difficult, but not impossible, to justify spending two or three times more money on a mill just because it's made in the USA.

[hoss2006]

Buy American! A nice sentiment but not a pledge that can be as possible these days.
Who made the car you drive, the tv you watch or the computer you're typing on.
These sites can help.
http://www.madeinusa.org/
http://www.americansworking.com/

[heilcnc]

Ok hoss i'm sorry to say your right its very hard to find american made so much for fair
trade if you seen the news there killing more in china with lead poisoning no epa there
but i think with prices of there stuff going up that we could build machines here (if we
did not pay the ceo to much!!!!!!!!!!!)

[docltf]

it is a nice thought and would look good on the wish list but it is not going to happen. the U.S. builders that are left are steady down sizeing as fast as they can. most are importing their castings and parts from their facilities that
they have built outside the USA. over time their assembly sights will even dissapear. they are under so much goverment pressure it has turned into a joke. with extra high manufacturing taxes,osha,epa,affirmative action and many many more statutes that they have to deal with.it is better just to move out. if they dont they will end up in the courtroom.at the rate it is happening the two largest manufacturers left in the country over the next twenty years will be dunkin doughnuts and domino pizza.

bill

[ihavenofish]

...at the rate it is happening the two largest manufacturers left in the country over the next twenty years will be dunkin doughnuts and domino pizza.

bill

manufacturers of obese citizens?

sorry, couldnt resist

this thread is silly. want a US made bench top mill? start a company yourself. noones going to do it for you out of feel good patriotism.

[arizonavideo]

There is one left and doing quite well.


http://www.haascnc.com/home.asp

My IH RF-45 clone cost $1600.00 including shipping from China. No one can make any money at that price. 1000 pounds of steel.

At some point we will need to look at the trade deals and the 300 pound gorilla that is lowering world wide wages called China.

I'm in favor of sales tax and import tax only, with no tax on income or corporations but we are so far away from that now it's not even funny.

Someday when our unemployment hits 20% someone may ask "What are all these people going to do"

I'm not seeing any green sprouts yet....Ha

[ihavenofish]

There is one left and doing quite well.


http://www.haascnc.com/home.asp

My IH RF-45 clone cost $1600.00 including shipping from China. No one can make any money at that price. 1000 pounds of steel.

At some point we will need to look at the trade deals and the 300 pound gorilla that is lowering world wide wages called China.

I'm in favor of sales tax and import tax only, with no tax on income or corporations but we are so far away from that now it's not even funny.

Someday when our unemployment hits 20% someone may ask "What are all these people going to do"

I'm not seeing any green sprouts yet....Ha

funny thing about haas, the dealer up here in canada went to great pains to tell me that the castings of the TM1 were made in canada, not the US.

in any case, import tarrifs have never done anything but bad for the businesses they pretend to support. penalizing foreign companies to portect unviable local business is the wrong idea, instead you need to give reason for the local ones to compete.

[Hirudin]

I'm not a scholar on the subject, actually I know very little, but the little bit I know about trade tariffs makes me think they are a good idea.

[dertsap]

there was a gentleman who had recently posted a thread on here who stated his company sold American made mills , http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78538 , I'm only pointing this out to show an example of someone who is doing it and could probably use some support , I'm sure there are others if people do some strong research

[ihavenofish]

there was a gentleman who had recently posted a thread on here who stated his company sold American made mills , http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78538 , I'm only pointing this out to show an example of someone who is doing it and could probably use some support , I'm sure there are others if people do some strong research

the hitch with that, was hes not selling american made mills. hes selling chinese mills with mostly US developped and assembled retrofit kits.

which is, fine, and if he wants to tout the american made aspects thats also great.

under the same guidelines, a smithy 622 could be called US made, and a novakon nm-135 can classify as canadian made, as they both offer in house built control systems and options.

however, if we moved back to the idea of tarrifs. all three companies would be hammered and all of those jobs lost because an arcane form of government decided they shouldnt be viable. all this to protect the profits of companies not even in competition with them.

for one of those 3 companies - or others like them - to begin to produce more of the machine in their local country, they need incentive, not penalty.

[dertsap]

the hitch with that, was hes not selling american made mills. hes selling chinese mills with mostly US developped and assembled retrofit kits.

which is, fine, and if he wants to tout the american made aspects thats also great.

it wasn't a hitch , he posted the thread in honestly as to which parts were outsourced


as far as tariffs go , China will be hit hard with them , they are a means to keep the economy moving , without their cheap products we wouldn't have an economy , people can't afford to buy expensive products at this point of time , if people aren't buying then the economy dies . the governments are using them to keep the economies moving once they get back up again then china will take a hard hit in tariffs , why else would the governments of the world sit back while china counterfeits so many products and deals in unfair trading practices , their day is coming

[escott76]

It's not just a matter of magically "making things in America" it's a philosophy that we have developed over the past several decades that needs to be broken. Wherever it comes from a cheap product is a cheap product. We have become so accustomed to going out and grabbing the cheapest thing we possibly can to get the job done that we have forgotten how to tell what quality is, and forgotten that a little more spent in the first place will be worth it in the long run.
Quality costs money, no matter where it's made. We can produce cheap crap in America too. Likewise when you pay more, you can get quality goods made in China. But if the majority of the market won't pay that rate, you get companies only willing to sell the cheap stuff.
Your only vote that counts is your dollar, use it. Don't buy disposable products that will need to be replaced in a year because the new model came out. Don't support the machine that treats you as a consistent source of money and wastes resources to produce endless successions of garbage.

[heilcnc]

i was trying to see what people had to say about american made vs chinese i see now
Here is a new question would you pay $1500.00 more for say a x6 syil type mill with
american made castings,american made cnc drive,faster spindle,.(quality)bearings

[nachman]

These two companies are in the US. They make really good high precision machines. Price is on the high end though and if you need to cut heavy metals then these aren’t the machines to do it.

http://www.minitech.com/products.php?Cc=MILL
http://www.modelmaster.com/mills.php

The only point I’d like to comment about the subject of this thread is that it doesn’t really matter where you get your machine from as long as it fits your budget and your requirements. If the only two choices you have are buying Chinese made or not but anything at all then your country will still benefit from your Chinese machine. The machine is a mean for creating what’s ever on your mind. Cheap Chinese machine will get the job done and give you the opportunity to start your home machine shop. You can then developed new stuff from which you’re country might benefit. Even if you don’t invent anything new and use it for plan fun then you still have to buy a lot of stuff for the rest of your machine shop which otherwise you wouldn’t. You can buy that American made so everyone benefit

[ihavenofish]

i was trying to see what people had to say about american made vs chinese i see now
Here is a new question would you pay $1500.00 more for say a x6 syil type mill with
american made castings,american made cnc drive,faster spindle,.(quality)bearings

unfortunately not a realistic question. the cost of casting the base alone in the US (or canada) is not a mere $1500 on a 1000+ pound machine in small volume like these are sold. you would end up at least $2000+ more plus the cost of machining the castings which might be easily double that amount. at that point - along with attempting to replace the other things you mentioned with US made components (there are no US made inexpensive quality spindle bearings, linear rails, or ball screws i know of), youd completely nulify the market, making the machine cost as much as a haas tm1 but with 1/3 the capability. and it STILL wouldnt be truely "american made".

then someone would have to go back to china and start importing the machines noone can make here.... again.

look at the price of the X6 -
look at the price of the novakon nm-200 with a gecko controller... $9000.
look at the price of an IH US retrofit cnc turnkey - $10000+
look at the price of a NEW manual bridgeport series 1 and the cost to retrofit as a quality CNC - $20000+

then look at the price of a haas tm-1 - $22000.

the haas is the "cheap" us made mill for industry. it owns the market, beating out most foreign made machines handily, even with increased competition. currently the chinese factories own the hobby market - they INVENTED the market as we know it today. there has never actually been a us made machine that filled this market. not one.

[escott76]

i was trying to see what people had to say about american made vs chinese i see now
Here is a new question would you pay $1500.00 more for say a x6 syil type mill with
american made castings,american made cnc drive,faster spindle,.(quality)bearings

Do you want to do the actual math, or just hypothesize some random numbers? Seriously, if you are actually behind what you say, it bears investigation. How much would an American made machine cost? Are you using dovetail/box ways, or linear guides? What is the market?
If you are trying to serve the same people who instantly turn to ebay for anything and everything (instead of opening a catalog and paying a minimal percentage more for what they actually need) you are going to be much poorer. And sadly this seems to be much of the hobbiest market, which is also that served by the import machines.
Personally I looked around at benchtop machines before deciding to build my own. It was either import, or huge money, and I got the machine I wanted for the cash outlay I had, but put in a ton of my own work. It still isn't American made linear guides either.
If you just want to wax nostalgic over how nothing is built in America anymore, thats fine. But if you are actually interested in the question you ask, you won't just spout off random numbers to see what people think.

[heilcnc]

no i have actually spoke with the politician (ny assemblyman ) in my area about
manufacturing and he agrees if we do not bring it back we are deep trouble
he told me we are buying most of our food now our bullits ext.
so yes i have looked at cost thats why the only way to play this game is the way
the others do the goverment helps then the others start hurting

[ihavenofish]

no i have actually spoke with the politician (ny assemblyman ) in my area about
manufacturing and he agrees if we do not bring it back we are deep trouble
he told me we are buying most of our food now our bullits ext.
so yes i have looked at cost thats why the only way to play this game is the way
the others do the goverment helps then the others start hurting

why does someone have to hurt? why is it an us or them thing for you? are chinese people less deserving of life than you? it doesnt have to be war.

the government can, should, and likely already does try to help manufacturing in many ways. what they need to do it make sure its done smartly, so it actually benifits the many, and not the profits of a select few.

but you have one problem. you are a nation of consumers. you have 300 million people and do not have the resources to sustain their wants and needs, be it food, raw materials or manufactured goods. youve long past the turning point - decades ago. you can never go back, and in all honesty, you shouldnt. the US has made it so far BECAUSE they have embraced a world economy, not shunned it.

your mentality has to move past the notion of rampant consumerism and a manufacturing based economy. you are now moving to a service based economy, and no token tax will stand in its way.

[escott76]

no i have actually spoke with the politician (ny assemblyman ) in my area about
manufacturing and he agrees if we do not bring it back we are deep trouble
he told me we are buying most of our food now our bullits ext.
so yes i have looked at cost thats why the only way to play this game is the way
the others do the goverment helps then the others start hurting

Well, spitting out "who will pay $1500 more for a US made x6" is straight up making up numbers. Not even remotely close to what the reality is.
If bringing manufacturing back to the US is important, do something about it, besides posting rambling, error ridden, poorly punctuated statements on an internet forum. There are many ways to play this game, but to say "the only way is to get government to help" is foolish. It shows that at the heart you don't understand the issues involved, and want someone else to protect you while you make a crappy product. Insist on quality, and don't give people who don't put it high on their list anything to keep up their business practices with. Walmart (as one shining example) didn't get where they are by magic. If you don't support that thought process don't shop there, I assure you there are alternatives. You, me and everyone else who buy things are the issue, not laws which place artificial trade barriers.
As others have already pointed out Haas makes several mills, the TM1 and Minimill are smaller mills. I have personally run a TM1, and found it to be a great machine, great quality, but you are gonna pay for it. No amount of lawmaking is going to make that number go to <10k. And if you think about it it doesn't need to. The people who really need it, the business that depends on keeping a CNC running to make money, are gonna buy the machine they can get support, parts, and a maintenance tech out on site to fix it when it breaks REGARDLESS of the initial cost.