[krustykrab]

Hey just was wondering if anyone has one of these machines with a fanuc controller, and how good is it at high speed machining?

[Scott_bob]

krusty,

We looked at their 4020 2 pallet 12k spindle model w/ Fanuc 18i

Had them do a test cut...
Cycle time was not good and accuracy was really bad.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...1205#post61205

Very attractive features and price though,

[krustykrab]

Thanks, I noticed your response in the high speed forum.
Sorry for duplicating a similar thread.

I just wanted to get as much input on these machines as I could find.

How long ago did you have the failed tests? Perhaps with the newer system, it may be resolved.

I have recently met with others at 2 different shops, both say these machines meet their complete requirements.

[camminc]

By all means, do not discount any machine tool you are looking at. Test cutting is not the best way to test a machine unless you know it’s dynamic’s first. In most cases an incorrect RPM is used making the machine not perform to it's full potential. Test cutting is not accurate by any means without first using Impact Testing technology prior and examining the frequency response function (FRF) and stability lobe diagrams produced by it for maximum depth of cut, enabling maximum use of power by proper selection of RPM. Let alone what tool holder, cutter, etc is used. Each machine tool has it's own dynamics and each machine tool performs best at it's own rpm as to cutter response at it's tool tip, to maximize depth of cut, power. You could do a test cut at a manufacture site and it could run poor, then run it somewhere else and it runs great. If a different holder is used, or cutter, or gage length, or stick out of tool, or number of teeth, etc are changed then it will run differently. Impact testing will tell dynamics first to select stable rpm's. Test cuts are exspensive, ineffective and time consuming without using dynamic information first.

See:
http://highspeedmachining.mae.ufl.edu/htmlsite/faq.html

I would certainly go with the views of shops that have the machines as you have, than by hearsay of just a test cut from someone that does not have that machine and does not use dynamics.

[Scott_bob]

How long ago did you have the failed tests? Perhaps with the newer system, it may be resolved.

I have recently met with others at 2 different shops, both say these machines meet their complete requirements.

We talked to 4 happy users who have these CNCs, but they did not run our test cut. The test cut we have been doing was done at YCI in November 2003.
The same set up was run on 3 other CNCs, same RPMs, same holders (they used ours,as their factory did not have holders).
The YCI part was the worst in accuracy, and cycle time. I watched the program run. I was there, watched and listened to the chatter free machining. These tool paths are all light cuts, the material is only 1/8" thick aluminum, cause thats what we make. We do a lot of shallow cavity molds for combination metal and rubber molded parts. Right now, we need another CNC for our part machining, 4020 travel our std, and as much RPM as possible. So YCI was definetely on our list of options for VMCs...

My point is: Do your own testing. Create your own test cut design. Machine that test cut on an existing CNC that you know works for you. Hey don't listen to my conclusions, those are mine. No matter what Gommer "above" says; come to "your own" conclusions. You don't need his products to follow your own scientific method. Oh, and one more thing, don't argue with a fool!

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel. 16A fool's vexation is known at once, but a prudent man conceals dishonor.

This place we are talking on is a forum and discussion is a good thing. Just beware of following someone who claims you need his products, to do your job right, you know that job you've been doing now for 28 years.

Good luck on your search,

[camminc]

You just proved my point. Three different machines, same RPM's. Will you never understand? Each machine has different dynamics, meaning they might run very different at same rpm's, in accuracy, finish, depth of cut. I am not selling anything, I am giving information to others because your information is incorrect and misleading. Someone has to correct myth's like yours in the industry. Have you not even studied the many links I have provided on this forum to view stability lobes? They are easy to understand. If you had you would know not to test cut like you just did. Without even knowing it you created the worst-case scenario. A machine tool does not need to have chatter occur, not that you would know if it was occurring anyway, to be inaccurate, again view a stability lobe to understand. The rpm you picked out of your hat might very well be unstable in the first place on one machine and stable on another. (Again - Tooth Pass Frequency - In phase) Test cuts are fine if done intelligently, either by way of stability lobes or change rpm's at least to varify. Running the same rpm on 3 different machines is like comparing apples to oranges.

Hope this helps.

[balsaman]

Let's keep this civil. Stick to the facts. No name calling or degrading or insulting comments. I am watching this thread carefully. I am talking to both of you.

Eric - Moderator

[krustykrab]

Thanks for the input folks. I didn't know that it was going to result in such a heated discussion. I've worked on many cnc machines in my career.

After running a machine for a short while you get to realize where it rocks, and where it lacks, and you therefore program it accordingly.

I feel that seeing is always believing, and using is the best way to determine a machines worth. It hasn't seemed to matter as far as the manufacturer. In general, I find that they are all doing a great job in providing a superior product at lower costs each time around.

We've decided to go ahead with the YCI Supermax, simply based on user input, price, and features. There's always risk involved, but this is keeping risk at a minimum.

[oskars]

By the way what is the price for this kind of machine?

[krustykrab]

The pricetag on this type of machine is going to vary from dealer to dealer and region to region. The 50 by 20 model offered here with the fanuc drives and controller was under 100k. I can't really be specific to be fair to the dealers.

specs at: http://www.ycisupermax.com/product/X.../XV-1250A.html

[camminc]

Good for you krustykrab, found the machine best suited for you. That's what it is all about.

All the heated discussions I have done on this forum are all in fun. Discussion being heated tends to wake people up and certainly gives us all something to think about. I have learned much from this forum also and will us that information to improve. All I intend to do in my writings on this forum is to show people that there are alternatives other than controller, programming and other widely known various methods especially when going into higher rpms. Enough talk about all the know methods, lets bring in some - Creative Advanced Machining Methods - for us all to experience. 10,000 rpm, yes it can open a few windows of opportunity for maximizing with rpm adjustment of certain operations, simply due to dynamics.

I to have been in the machining industry for 31 years now, but I really opened my eyes when I learned dynamics. Before it was just a job, now it is a passion. Those years meant little until I was able to add dynamics. I was never a machinist nor programmer, I worked in tooling only. I always relied on the operator and programming, mostly operator. The operator knows what worked when they are cutting, we worked together, programming was rarely involved, until HSM came into the picture. The thing that impressed me most was that by not knowing anything about being an operator or programming, I was able to improve problem operations by knowing dynamics, over the operator and programmer. Now you would have to admit, that is not common. I was probably more adaptable because I had not learned or experienced imbedded method characteristics of machining, taught by previous conventional machining idea's, therefore I would try what worked best at that point, having no opinion of previous methods. I had no opinion of rpm, feeds, speeds, doc, etc. All I knew was that the result of using dynamics made my job easier, because I was the one grinding the tools setting them up and purchasing them. The one problem dynamics did give me was not the method used to make it work but getting programming to go with it. Management certainly went with it, because they see money savings, operators too because it made there job easier, but for some reason programmers would do anything to ignore it won't work if that part of the chain is a weak link.

HSM, higher rpms is nothing like conventional speeds at all. Dynamics is the final piece of the puzzle to make it all happen. Tool holder, cutter, balance, programming, controllers, all of this will eventually fail or show weaknesess which dynamics will improve upon and it all shows up at the tool tip.

I wish you good luck with your new machine.

[krustykrab]

It's pretty obvious, your passion for machine dynamics. I can't say that I'm passionate at my career, however I do love what I do, and I am always interested in a better and faster way of machining, without any additional stress to the machine or tooling. The tooling is something that I will be doing research into now, far more seriously in order to get this new machine to dance.

I was just over at a buddies shop on Saturday, he had just set up a P20 cavity and began roughing it out. 2 inch 3flute (or 4 flute can't quite recall), inserts were Widia with about .072" tip radius. Taking a .04" step down, 65% TDU stepover. At a spindle speen of about only 1000rpm, travelling at a feedrate of 400ipm.

I was really impressed, and also realized that I have a lot to learn, 'cause I wouldn't have dared to try that. This is why we all need to share our experiences with each other......it gets us closer to cutting at maximum quicker, than our own trial and error learning curve.

Thanks to everyone who inputs into this forum!