[teamus]

when setting the work shift why is the distance from the tool to the turret added and then subtracted in the geometry offsets? Can't they both be "0"?

[beege]

What machine and control are you using? What method do you use to touch off your tools? Do you use the work shift or G54?

The way I see it is that the G54 value is the distance from the spindle face to the part Z zero, and the tool geometry is the distance from the turret face and centerline to the tool tip (Mine is the Hardinge II+ with FANUC 10TF control)

[g-codeguy]

Knowing the model, the control, and what it uses for the workshift (G54-G59 or G10), etc. would be a big help.

[teamus]

A Hardinge 51 and 42. You touch off the end of the part go to work shift and zero out. Then you add the distance from the the tool to the turret face and you have a shift value. You then put the same value in the geometry offset. Don't you end up at the same spot if you don't add to the work shift and leave the geometry offset at zero? You then touch off the other tools to the end of the part you set their geometry offsets relative to the first tool.

[teamus]

Oh by the way, the control is a fanuc 21 T.

[g-codeguy]

A Hardinge 51 and 42. You touch off the end of the part go to work shift and zero out. Then you add the distance from the the tool to the turret face and you have a shift value. You then put the same value in the geometry offset. Don't you end up at the same spot if you don't add to the work shift and leave the geometry offset at zero? You then touch off the other tools to the end of the part you set their geometry offsets relative to the first tool.

Are you using a probe? If not, then make your rough turning tool Z0. Who cares if the actual geometry is really .2487? Face, don't move the Z-axis, highlight the Z in the right hand column on the workshift page, type in Z0, INPUT. Touch off the rest of the tools. Done.

If using a probe, or you want the tool geometry to read what it should be, then do the above except type in the geometry of the tool instead of Z0. Say it was Z.2487. You'd type in Z.2487, INPUT. At least that is the way it works on our 18T and 21i-T controls.

All the Hardinges I've ever run used G10 for setting the workshift.

EDIT: Are either of these barfeed machines? All but one of ours are. I set the workshift for those in my program. It's easy to figure.

[teamus]

thanks G-code. How do you set work shift in the program?

[g-codeguy]

thanks G-code. How do you set work shift in the program?

G10P0Z-3.5

[teamus]

thanks again Dale

[g-codeguy]

You're more than welcome. Will help anytime I can.

[JohnnyTurn]

Work shift does not need to be used at all. If it is used, it's only used on the Z Axis.

Here is a good use of the workshift:

Running a chucking job and through the day you need to adjust for length control. You don't need to move the facing tool in. Just move the Z work shift in the minus for less stock removal and plus for more. This way you do a GRID SHIFT of the Absolute Coordinate System and all your tools move in/out the same amount. Don't try the novice method of wear offset times 6 tools in the Z to get this result. For some reason, it does not work.

NEVER MOVE THE X WORK SHIFT.

Also the Z work shift is great for running families of parts that only have a difference in the length. If there is enough of the stock sticking out, you just need to enter the amount of shift and make sure you maintain your clearances.

Don't use the Work Shift the way Hardinge tells you to. It's not needed at all.
If using a puller:

Cut off, leaving .250 sticking out of the collet/chuck
Pull to desired length
Face/Qualify/Rough Turn the diameter (this creates your Z0.0 for subsequent tools)
Touch off any remaining tools to this face.
Use wear offsets to dial in the part after taking .0005 face cuts with boring bars and such.

That's it. I run super precision parts like this all the time. Work shift is best used for length control. You do not need to use it at all in the program. Someone tell me where the benifit is in using it?

JT

[g-codeguy]

Work shift does not need to be used at all. If it is used, it's only used on the Z Axis.

You would screw yourself real quick if you started moving the X workshift.

Here is a good use of the workshift:

Running a chucking job and through the day you need to adjust for length control. You don't need to move the facing tool in. Just move the Z work shift in the minus for less stock removal and plus for more. This way you do a GRID SHIFT of the Absolute Coordinate System and all your tools move in/out the same amount.

Changing the workshift gives the same result.

Don't try the novice method of wear offset times 6 tools in the Z to get this result. For some reason, it does not work.

Why doesn't it? What would be the difference between moving the workshift .006 and moving every tool by .006? However, I agree with you 100% on this. Dumb to stand there and offset 12 stations when making one change to the workshift is all that is needed. Definitely less chance of making a typing error.

NEVER MOVE THE X WORK SHIFT.

See above comment.

Also the Z work shift is great for running families of parts that only have a difference in the length. If there is enough of the stock sticking out, you just need to enter the amount of shift and make sure you maintain your clearances.

Don't use the Work Shift the way Hardinge tells you to. It's not needed at all.

Gee. It's been so long since I've looked at a manual for this type of thing that I haven't the foggiest idea how Hardinge manuals tell you to set the workshift.

If using a puller:

Cut off, leaving .250 sticking out of the collet/chuck
Pull to desired length
Face/Qualify/Rough Turn the diameter (this creates your Z0.0 for subsequent tools)
Touch off any remaining tools to this face.
Use wear offsets to dial in the part after taking .0005 face cuts with boring bars and such.

Obviously you don't have probes (or ignore them). Some of our lathes have them, some don't. Almost all of our lathes are barfeeds. Let me see if I understand you correctly. A 3/4 inch 80 deg. profiling tool has an F value of 1.0. Using a probe would give you a Z-GEOM of .25 (give or take a few thousandths. As I understand it you are leaving the workshift at Z0 so your geometry is going to read in the inches...varying all over the place depending on the part length.

What do you do for the next job? Reset all your tools? Figure out the difference in Z between the last job and the current one, and then make a grid shift? If using new jaws, how do you take into consideration the difference on how deep the jaws were bored for this job versus the last one? How close are you after all this mathematical manipulation? Seems like it could get more complicated than necessary.

That's it. I run super precision parts like this all the time. Work shift is best used for length control. You do not need to use it at all in the program. Someone tell me where the benifit is in using it?

JT

Okay here's the benefit. I determined after setting up the first job on one of our Daewoo Lynx lathes that I could use 6.8 for my constant. This leaves approximately 1/4 inch sticking out of the collet after cut-off. Now all I do is add 6.8 to my cut-off position (and round off to nearest .01).

We run lots of end washers. Usually make 5 per barstop. Do you want to trust your operators/set-up men to figure out where the last cut-off position will be, and then to extend the bar the correct amount before setting Z0? I don't. They never have to worry about setting a workshift because I do it for them in the program.

There is more than one way for them to set new tools once the Barstop Op has been run. One operator always figured .02 coming off the face and set the tool geometry accordingly. I prefer to MDI my rough turning tool to a known position, face and then set my new tools.

I don't set the workshift on chuck jobs. The set-up guy better be capable of that or he won't be working for us long. At least not as set-up man.

Now I am not saying your way isn't any good, or that it is wrong. Like my Pappy use to say, "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

However, I think I will stick with my way, unless you can show me where I erred in my thinking regarding how you make your adjustments from job to job. AND that it is easier and faster than my way.

EDIT: Sorry JT, but this is bugging me. Still racking my brain trying to figure out how you are going from job to job without having to re-touch all the tools. Arrrrrh. What am I not understanding? Please explain.

[teamus]

Once the tools are touched off to Z zero they don't have to be re-touched when you workshift. I set zero with my finish face and touch all other tools there.

[JohnnyTurn]

You don't read well, hence your lack of understanding. I am sure you are able to get the job done with your methods. But you are stuck in your ways and I have met plenty of your type the last 17 years and have replaced and surpassed them all with my skills and problem solving.

Don't answer my replies in the future. I find you boring.

JT

[teamus]

confused:

You don't read well, hence your lack of understanding. I am sure you are able to get the job done with your methods. But you are stuck in your ways and I have met plenty of your type the last 17 years and have replaced and surpassed them all with my skills and problem solving.

Don't answer my replies in the future. I find you boring.

JT

[g-codeguy]

confused:

Don't worry. Pretty sure he is talking to me. Look on the first page. I asked him for a further explanation on how he goes from job to job since he doesn't use a workshift. Except to move all the tools in or out once set up. Best I could figure out is that he resets every tool when a new job gets set up since he doesn't use a workshift. So I asked for more details so I could fully understand his method. I truly would like to know what it is that I am missing.

JohnnyTurn was quite upset with me on another thread when I disagreed with his statement that you couldn't thread 316 SS over 1000 RPM. Right away he accused me of only running brass and aluminum, and that he could tell that I was one of those guys who if I ever did run a 316 SS job would feel like I had really accomplished something.

He never did reply when I mentioned that I thought I had a little bit of experience with 316 SS since we run it on a daily basis, and that I was programming for 316 SS (and setting up and running the job) while he was still in school.

You will notice that he has a pretty high opinion of himself. Bet his hat size is XXL. He runs some pretty close tolerance jobs. Apparently the rest of us don't. Not nearly the kind of "super precision parts" that he runs "all the time".

Now he tells me that I am one of those old guys stuck in the past not able to change my old ways of doing things. The kind he easily surpasses. Apparently I can't read very well either. I will try harder.

I do like to learn new things. Just because someone is younger than I or has worked less years in the business than I doesn't mean I am not willing to listen to what they have to say. Never know. I might learn something new. It appears that JohnnyTurn's way is the only correct way. Or at least the very best way. The rest of us can only dream of having his abilities.

I gather from his previous posts that Johnny Turn likes to learn occasionally himself. I like that about him. Apparently he is pretty good at his job. I like that about him. I just don't think I could put up with his conceited and condescending attitude for very long.

[teamus]

Don't worry. Pretty sure he is talking to me. Look on the first page. I asked him for a further explanation on how he goes from job to job since he doesn't use a workshift. Except to move all the tools in or out once set up. Best I could figure out is that he resets every tool when a new job gets set up since he doesn't use a workshift. So I asked for more details so I could fully understand his method. I truly would like to know what it is that I am missing.

JohnnyTurn was quite upset with me on another thread when I disagreed with his statement that you couldn't thread 316 SS over 1000 RPM. Right away he accused me of only running brass and aluminum, and that he could tell that I was one of those guys who if I ever did run a 316 SS job would feel like I had really accomplished something.

He never did reply when I mentioned that I thought I had a little bit of experience with 316 SS since we run it on a daily basis, and that I was programming for 316 SS (and setting up and running the job) while he was still in school.

You will notice that he has a pretty high opinion of himself. Bet his hat size is XXL. He runs some pretty close tolerance jobs. Apparently the rest of us don't. Not nearly the kind of "super precision parts" that he runs "all the time".

Now he tells me that I am one of those old guys stuck in the past not able to change my old ways of doing things. The kind he easily surpasses. Apparently I can't read very well either. I will try harder.

I do like to learn new things. Just because someone is younger than I or has worked less years in the business than I doesn't mean I am not willing to listen to what they have to say. Never know. I might learn something new. It appears that JohnnyTurn's way is the only correct way. Or at least the very best way. The rest of us can only dream of having his abilities.

I gather from his previous posts that Johnny Turn likes to learn occasionally himself. I like that about him. Apparently he is pretty good at his job. I like that about him. I just don't think I could put up with his conceited and condescending attitude for very long.

I totally agree with you. I don't think I have ever known anyone with a better opinion of himself but when challenged seems to lose confidence and simply says "don't talk to me anymore". Perhaps he is just mentally immature

[g-codeguy]

Teamus, I honestly would like to understand how JT is setting up without a workshift. Did you read my reply to him? Seems to me that every set-up is going to require resetting all the tools using his method. A waste of time. Which is why I asked for further input from him.

Many of the tools remain the same when going from one job to another on our lathes. Drills change. Boring bars, groove bars and bars I use for back chamfering IDs may change. Turning, grooving, threading and c-o tools usually stay in the same station. I don't see how his method could be better and faster than my method.

Program gets loaded. Hit cycle start with Optional Stop on and let it barstop. Face off at a known dimension with the roughing tool. Touch off any new tools. Rock and roll. If there is a better way, then I am willing to try it. Even if it means changing all my current programs. Time is money.

I may be an old fart, but I've never considered myself to know it all. If an 18 year old can show me a better way, then I'll change my methods. Simple as that.

I am getting a bit of flack at work because I am using macro programming more. The other lathe programmer doesn't seem to be very interested in learning it. He strictly sticks with MasterCam. I've offered to show him. He's an excellent machinist and a good programmer, but doesn't seem to be interested in learning. Younger than me, BTW.

This also forces the operators to learn. Had the same problem when I made my first master program and used macros to control the OD diameters. Foreman wasn't too thrilled. Now if I don't use macros on the ODs he comes and asks me to put them in.

Problem with using the macros for my barfeed and cut-off ops is that when I take time off and the other programmer has to modify an old program to run the new way, it often has to wait for me to come back. Unacceptable even to me. Cut-off doesn't need to be changed, but the barfeed op does. It dresses new bars.

Changes have to be made one way or the other. Either you make a few simple changes to my G65 call or you would have to either (1) modify the barstop subprogram every time stock size changes or material grade changes, or (2) you put the barstop operation in every program and make the changes there. I prefer my method. Even operators with any common sense at all can make the necessary changes to my G65 call.

Sorry for the long post. Seems one thing led to another.

[teamus]

Teamus, I honestly would like to understand how JT is setting up without a workshift. Did you read my reply to him? Seems to me that every set-up is going to require resetting all the tools using his method. A waste of time. Which is why I asked for further input from him.

Many of the tools remain the same when going from one job to another on our lathes. Drills change. Boring bars, groove bars and bars I use for back chamfering IDs may change. Turning, grooving, threading and c-o tools usually stay in the same station. I don't see how his method could be better and faster than my method.

Program gets loaded. Hit cycle start with Optional Stop on and let it barstop. Face off at a known dimension with the roughing tool. Touch off any new tools. Rock and roll. If there is a better way, then I am willing to try it. Even if it means changing all my current programs. Time is money.

I may be an old fart, but I've never considered myself to know it all. If an 18 year old can show me a better way, then I'll change my methods. Simple as that.

I am getting a bit of flack at work because I am using macro programming more. The other lathe programmer doesn't seem to be very interested in learning it. He strictly sticks with MasterCam. I've offered to show him. He's an excellent machinist and a good programmer, but doesn't seem to be interested in learning. Younger than me, BTW.

This also forces the operators to learn. Had the same problem when I made my first master program and used macros to control the OD diameters. Foreman wasn't too thrilled. Now if I don't use macros on the ODs he comes and asks me to put them in.

Problem with using the macros for my barfeed and cut-off ops is that when I take time off and the other programmer has to modify an old program to run the new way, it often has to wait for me to come back. Unacceptable even to me. Cut-off doesn't need to be changed, but the barfeed op does. It dresses new bars.

Changes have to be made one way or the other. Either you make a few simple changes to my G65 call or you would have to either (1) modify the barstop subprogram every time stock size changes or material grade changes, or (2) you put the barstop operation in every program and make the changes there. I prefer my method. Even operators with any common sense at all can make the necessary changes to my G65 call.

Sorry for the long post. Seems one thing led to another.

Thanks for taking the time. I think you are one of the more knowledgeable people on this site. I would like to know a lot more about macros and I bought a couple of books that you had recommended (by Peter Smid) but I still can't understand them enough to produce a workable a macro. I might have started at a higher level and missed the basics.

[g-codeguy]

Hey, I love macro programming!!! What are you trying to do with one? I should be able to help you if it is for a lathe. Unfortunately I don't program mills although we do have some C-axis lathes that get some basic milling done on. Nothing fancy.