[matttargett4]

Hi all,

Im looking to gauge interest on a product which i could develop a little further and bring to market but dont want to spend a load of time on it if no one is interested.

Basically the product is a $100 digital torch height control providing all the functionality of other systems, preset profiles for different materials, on screen display of torch volts, on screen adjustment of target volts etc etc.

The product would connect to any plasma cutter, probabaly those with hf start also

it could be connected through either a couple of pins on you standard parrallel port or via the modbus

im not gonna tell you it will be perfect or claim to hold it accurate to 0.25volt because it wont and i dont think it needs to but it will keep a good enough distance between the torch and the work to work on warped paltes, i think it is accurate to about 5 volts, jim colt mentioned somewhere this is good enough for air plasma and it cheap so you cant expect it to be perfect

So what do you think? would you be interested?

[Farex]

Hi matttargett4
I'm interested , I'm about to order the MP3000 from candcnc and i'll be happy to try your product too

[matttargett4]

Hi farex,

unfortunately im not ready to market my product yet, i will need a month or so to get it finished, i note your location is uk also, you will have trouble getting candcnc products here, thats why i came to work on my own system.

hope ive helped you, i would need some people to test it if you are interested, ideally uk based.

thanks

matt

[Bob Shaw]

Hi Matt,

A friend and I will be starting to build a plasma table soon. We might be ready to test your thc in 6 - 8 weeks.

BTW we're in Paisley, Scotland.


Cheers,

Bob.

[Torchhead]

I'm still waiting for the $10 THC promised 12 months ago.:tired:

At the risk of being labeled a running dog of capitalism:

I hope you have at least built one. From your statements I would guess it's still theory because it won't work using some of the methods you threw out.

Since you are going to design and build it in the UK you will need to adhere to their strict standards and certification requirements.

This kind of post ("I Have A Dream....") shows up from time to time. Sometimes it's a servo drive for $35.00, sometimes it's a new, do everything CNC brain. What they all share is that they sound great and it gets people all excited and throwing flowers, but taking a product from idea to shipping product is many times harder than is conceived. It takes weeks/months of testing, programming, PCB layout, PCB re-layout. It's the last 10% that is the hardest. It's composed almost entirely of things you missed or have never seen. Most people do not have the drive to stick with it when the first, second, third or tenth versions are failures. Then if you are successful you have to first market the product THEN support the bloody thing being installed and used by persons that have never even cut with plasma let alone a THC.

It's easy to look at the raw parts you need to build something like that and project from that a $100.00 USD price. Hey, A PCB, a handful of parts and a few minutes to solder each one....how hard can it be??

I think I would be more impressed if you had a working model and had been through all of the testing and figured out what tolerance you need to hold on a cut and what the "loop" feedback profile needs to look like to track at 200 IPM and hold .015 (or better) gap resolution. Anything less and you just designed a Bouncing-Head-Consummables-Eating-THC.

Okay, the rant is over.

SO, I think it's a great idea. Go for it. It's boring sometimes being the lonely engineer and having to talk to one's self.

TOM CAUDLE
www.CandCNC.com
Old Grizzled EE

[matttargett4]

Tom,

I have a working system i use myself, i developed this because of the problem getting other stuff into the country so i am part way there, as you say the last 10% is the hardest and so thats why i wanted to know if there was anyone interested out there because im not gonna spend the time because i like doing it, i want to be confident that if i do someone might buy it,

im alternatively thinking of writing a comprehensive guide on how to do it since it must be pretty simple because i did it and im stupid, just had time to fiddle, and then selling the guide, list of components, screen set etc for $10 so once ive done that (which will take a lot less doing) i can concentrate on support.

What does anyone think to that idea? Tom?

thanks

matt

[jimcolt]

I'll chip into this conversation as well....as a 31 year veteran at Hypertherm I have watched a lot of this type of development over the years. Thirty years ago Hypertherm had two models of a pretty high technology THC system (The THC1 and THC2).....these had all kinds of inputs and outputs that would suit anyone's cnc of the day, even had two different methods of IHS (initial height sensing) to properly establish pierce height. These systems were designed to work with high frequency start plasma systems (thats all there was!) and at cutting power levels up to 1000 Amps for systems that cut Stainless and Aluminum to 6" thicknesses in an industrial application. Eveything was done using Cmos circuitry, which was very electrical noise sensitive....and virtually every system needed an engineer from the factory to assist with the installation....there was a bundle of cables that attached to the cnc, to the plasma, and to the z axis drive.

With today's technology it is easier to design a THC that monitors plasma arc voltage as the feedback loop and controls torch to work distance from this. The difficulty is in designing a system with all of the I/O necessary for all applications....that has accurate IHS capability, the ability to rapidly move to cut height after piercing but before the lead in is complete, the ability to freeze z axis motion when cutting speeds get below a certain threshold, tha ability to recognize and ignore kerf crossing arc voltage fluctuations, the ability to adjust sensitivity with different processes (some plasma power levels require rapid corrections....some need sluggish corrections........and the list goes on.

I personally would buy a THC that had all of the above features for $100....but It likely is not possible unless it could be designed and sold in quantities that would allow mass production similar to today's PC computers!

Regardless, don't get discouraged....keep designing and testing....maybe you are onto something good!

Jim Colt

[Torchhead]

Tom,



im alternatively thinking of writing a comprehensive guide on how to do it since it must be pretty simple because i did it and im stupid, just had time to fiddle, and then selling the guide, list of components, screen set etc for $10 so once ive done that (which will take a lot less doing) i can concentrate on support.

What does anyone think to that idea? Tom?

thanks

matt

We published (for Free) a THC circuit that worked (analog IC's) and even made the PCB layout available. This will sound harsh, but with the exception of two persons, the dozen or so builders should not have been anywhere near component level electronics. Couple that with dealing with lethal level voltages and it's scary. The percentage of builders that are willing to stick build a THC and make it work like it should is minuscule. You will be expected to give unlimited support, troubleshooting, and proper setup and use for 10 bucks. The volume will be low so you will be working for virtually free (or worse). Think about it. If you sell a hundred sets of plans for 10 bucks that is a $1000.00. You will also be expected to support MACH3 and any screens/plug-ins or profiles you furnish. Most of your users will have never seen MACH so you will be expected to support the install and setup for that same $10.00. In short you become responsible for everything. The experience I had made me pull the free plans.

. Then you need to be able to address the THC interface to all kinds of plasma cutters. Your target market is to users that can't spend the few hundred dollars for a complete THC solution (or live where they can't get it like yourself) so the chances they will have mainstream plasma units will be low. A lot of your sales will come from places where they can't even get the components so you will have to answer "can I use this part in place of the one you list".

To lend a level of credence to the comments, I owned an electronics mail order company in the 70's and early 80's that sold components and kits to experimenters. Most of my business was to people that had a background in some level of electronics (hams, repair technicians, etc). I could tell you story after story about kits we got back with really nasty letters about the "junk" we were selling that looked like they were soldered with a hot rock. Components in backwards, solder shorts, cold solder joints and the wrong value of components. We furnished the PCB's, all components and a step by step instruction sheet.

Sometimes there is value in the lessons of the marketplace so please don't take my experiences as your total source of input. Go forward with your plans. It will be a valuable learning experience.

TOM CAUDLE
www.CandCNC.com
Totally Modular CNC Electronics.

[PoppaBear10]

I say Go For it Matt!!!

that is what this forum and Mach3 is about, makeing CNC available to the Hobbiest level guy!! Follow your dream man, dont let anyone discourage you. If you fail, pull your self up, write down the lesson. Find out Why you failed and Try again. Nothing succeeds like success.

I personally am glad to see guys like you out there!! Some guys can afford a several thousand bucks for some nice Plazma stuff, most Hobbiest cannot....... so they improvize and come up with unique solutions. To me it is what sets all the people on this forum apart from button pushers. How many guys in your neighboorhood can BUILD a working CNC machine in thier basement or even know what CNC means.......

You are a inventor, and DIY kinda guy, and like the rest of us on this site and others, we have the desire to KNOW how it works and get grate satisfaction from Building it ourselves.

Who Cares if what you are trying to do NEVER works, you will never know unless you try, and you will pick up valuable learning along the way that will serve you in this or other projects.

Scott

[Bob Shaw]

In response to Toms post, I have been burned in the same way but in a different field (software).

The solution is to be very upfront with a no holds barred disclaimer along the lines of:

1) This is a budget priced kit for experienced builders.

2) Detailed instructions are supplied but SUPPORT IS NOT INCLUDED in the price.

3) DO NOT purchase this product if you are insufficiently experienced to attempt to build it.



If any genuine queries come up for things that you've actually got wrong/forgotten about then by all means fess up and help out but tell anyone asking for free support to go raffle themselves.

What I did in the end was setup a forum so that users could help each other out and I kept an eye on it so that if any genuine oversight was spotted I could jump in and help immediately.

It worked fine. I'd hate to see people like Tom being put off from offering useful kits because of a negative experience from some users.

Cheers,

Bob.

[BobWarfield]

When I was in college in Houston, Texas, there were lots of small guys making PC's and selling them. It was a heyday. There were inch thick magazines printed on newspaper-like paper filled with ads from hundreds of these guys. In Houston was a big computer club called HalPC.

I remember hearing one time a big warning go out. Seems there was a kid building PC's in his University of Texas college dorm room at ridiculously low prices. Some folks had gotten burned and they wanted everyone to know it and to steer clear of this kid and his PC's.

BTW, that kid's name was Michael Dell. He still does a little bit of PC business out of Austin, Texas.

Cheers,

BW

[Torchhead]

......... I'd hate to see people like Tom being put off from offering useful kits because of a negative experience from some users.

Cheers,

Bob.

How about a fully functional Digital Torch Height Control with back-lighted LCD readout, front panel parameter setup (including Target Volt Preset) , integrated anti-dive (TIP SAVER), all in a small package and with a concise manual and free on-line forum support for $199.00? This is not a "kit". It uses the latest high speed micro processor technology with surface mount components, and comes ready to mount in a panel (or in an optimal low profile case). It works with MACH3 (and later EMC2) and needs 3 open parallel port inputs. :idea:

Most of the support for THC is not in the building of, but in the setup and just how to use it. There are lots of "gotcha's" when plasma cutting that are not obvious. If you can't make something work after hours of frustration it has no value, no matter how cheap it was to begin with.

I don't like to make premature announcements about future products so the above is just a "what if " (for now).

TOM caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[tmbg]

I'm right there with ya, Tom, bringing a product to market like this is a lot more difficult and expensive than most people realize at first blush.

However, I think it's a reasonable area for DIY and experimentation within the hobby CNC arena. I'm working on my second CNC build, a plasma table, and I intend to try to DIY the THC portion of it. I hope I have a reasonable chance at it, since I have a background in microcontroller programming, robotics, and some amount of control theory. Also, I'm working with a powermax45, and hopefully its CNC interface will shortcut some of the interfacing work.

That said, if you're gonna be dropping a $199 bombshell on us, I'd definitely sit up and take notice!

[jimcolt]

I'd be happy to help with any info in regards to THC functionality that help the plasma process cut better in terms of cut quality and consumable life. Necessary features and nice to have features.

Jim Colt

[tmbg]

I appreciate that, Jim! From all the reading on the topic that I've done here thus far, it definitely is obvious to me that you and Tom are the leading authorities on the topic.

[Torchhead]

That said, if you're gonna be dropping a $199 bombshell on us, I'd definitely sit up and take notice!

Brace yourself. In final testing now. Due to be released July 1st or sooner.

Some (but not all) of the features:

Free MACH screen sets. Works with your existing MACH setup and hardware OR with new MACH installs. Detailed setup instructions.

High sample rate 10 bit A/D. Surface mount technology.

Compatible with Floating Torch Holder for IHS (touch off).

ARC OK (Arc XFR) input

Single knob (rotary encoder with detents and swtich) user control (Front Panel)

Dual Readout of Preset and Actual Arc volts

Status indicators.

Setting of "TIP SAVER" (anti-dive) via rotary encoder.

Option of using inputs to our (or other) BOB's or direct to a Parallel port input.

Plug interface to our standard THC Sensor card (included in the kit) for easy hookup to most Plasma units. (will use an external current transformer for ARC OK if needed)

Detailed instruction manual and specific connections for Hypertherm 1000 series and new 45 series.

Isolated outputs

Extremely small footprint.

Standard rectangular panel cutout mount. Or optional plastic case.

Free unlimited on-line support (e-mail; Support Forum) 60 day free phone support.

:cheers:

[fatal-exception]

Put me down for one!

Paul

[Torchhead]

Put me down for one!

Paul

Paul:

Make sure you join our CandCNCSupport Forum on Yahoo. I always give those guys first shot on new products (dance with the one that brung'ya) and any specials we are running. I don't typically do pre-announcements on products on the open forums. Too many posts use the list for "Market Research" trying to gauge interest for ideas.

The LCTHC is not just an idea and is something we have been working on for several months. I won't officially announce until we can ship a production unit within 5 days of getting the first order. It normally takes at lease 2 (and often more) rounds of prototypes just to get the PCB's correct and the electronics working.

Although time consuming, the firmware can be changed easily. The next phase and probably the hardest, is the Real World testing and dealing with the noise factors of plasma cutting. Sometimes you have to go back to phase one to get something that will operate reliably in harsh noise environments. Then the "productizing" step comes in where the packaging, hardware, and the dreaded Manual gets written. Finally you have to get production quantities of components ordered and in stock and plan the production runs, testing procedures and specify the parameters for calibration and QC.

TOMCAUDLE
www.CandCNC.com

[foam27]

"Due to be released July 1st or sooner."

Only about a week left for the NEW $199 THC

Right Tom ?

[tmbg]

Let's hope so!