[g29cc]

Well guys, first let me say hello. I ve been lurking for awhile, I ve read alot of interesting stuff and glad to be able to get such a wealth of information for free !!!

Now to my idea. I have a Sherline 5400 cnc, and the 4400 cnc as well with threading capabilities. Well I bought these machines after some research that they were in my price range for a cnc setup. That alot of my work would be aluminum and mild steel. The lathe cuts guide rods for guns out of stainless, its pretty decent, nothing like the Haas machines I ve run, but hey for $2000 I cant complain. I ve pretty much paid it off within the first few months I had it.

I am opening up a small custom gun shop. Just making small production runs of triggers, hammers, guide rods and things of that nature. Also doing some basic engraving ideas.

I ve found the sherlines work good for what they are probably intended for and thats a hobbyist that is going to play around making a thing or two. But as far as production or serious work, they lack the power and ability, and for $2000 , I cant expect much I guess.

I ve been eyeballing a Tormach setup. I figure I am going to limit myself to about $10,000 and the Tormach looks like the best bang for the buck.

With that said, I ve been cruising here and noticed the IH setup and the X series. I ve pretty much canceled out the X series brand just for a few things people have said here and there. I am not looking to upgrade something the minute I get it home. So the Tormach seems to be something I can have dropped off , setup and start cutting.

The videos Tormach shows seem very good. And its power /ability seems to be more then capable for what I want and need. The Duality lathe seems pretty neat too.

I have a older Jet benchtop, something similiar to their middle to large model JMD18. But its an older version. Slight different specs on things, table is a touch smaller/bigger , just things like that. I got it for $400 just recently. I ve only used it twice to hog down some parts.

Would retrofitting something like this be worth while. Ball screws, etc. I dont have alot of time to invest into retrofitting as the new business is starting to take off , leaving me with little to no time to do anything. I am not an electronic person, and thats a bummer. I mean I can wire things, but if I have to sit down and start to make a schematic, I dont have time for that. I would really like a plug n play setup if possible.

Dollar wise, the machine seems decently tight. Not alot of wear on it that I can see. Throwing parts at it to retro fit it I didnt find much to convince me that the time I spend is worth it. A new in the box machine like the Tormach ( am I really going to be hurting with stepper motors ? For what I ve done with the sherline I feel okay, but I know its not a high speed machine setup like a new Haas ) going to satisfy most people. I am not building airplanes or rocket ships.

Anyways, I cant spend much more then $10,000. Thats alot of loot for me, and might mean selling off some of my prized guns for it. But hey they dont make me money , only pleasure to shoot and with all the time I spend working now, I dont even get that. I figure better machine, means less time working ( or more work in the same amount of time ) and better parts.

Ramble ramble ramble......Just kinda thinking outloud and wondering what others have to say about retro/Tormach/sherline.

Thanks

[sergizmo]

If you have a lot of business already coming in, it would probably be a good idea to buy a machine instead of retrofitting one. From what I have seen in various threads, there is always more involved that what you initially think and the time and money budget can go out the window. If time is tight now, imagine how tight it would be if you were building a machine in addition to what you're doing now with orders continuing to increase.

The IH and the Tormach would be excellent for what you want to do. Both weigh in at about 1,100 lbs and from all indcations are quality machines. Important factors when you want to cut a lot of steel. The IH has slightly longer travels, but the Tormach seems to be designed "from the ground up" as a CNC vs a retrofit like the IH.

You are on the right track here. You will need to upgrade from the Sherline mill for any steel work (and they will wear out from production). The X series of machines are more than a little "rough around the edges" and require some work. Frankly even the X3/X4 is a bit small if you want to do a lot of work in steel. Both the IH and Tormach would fit your needs well. Keep looking into these two on the forum and other user groups. If you can, try to get a glimpse of both "in the flesh" making parts.

Good luck on your business. Glad to hear it's taking off for you.

Serge

[Stepper Monkey]

I would also agree you are on the right track. Never owned a Tormach, but it is unique in it is the one machine I haven't heard anything but glowing praise for from owners, other than obvious issues with moving it down flights of stairs!
It was designed as CNC, and as a package, from the ground up, and after reading their analysis on why they designed it the way they did I would say I would trust their design skills implicitly. Specifically their explanation of why they chose steppers is very enlightening, and well worth the read: http://www.tormach.com/document_libr...gnAnalysis.pdf (special attention to pages 7 and 8 for this topic) I would have no worries on that count.

If you already have the business coming in, it is way easier to justify, and amortize, the rather incremental cost of a ready-to-run unit over the lost production time and labor, much less any of the possible long-term reliability factors of a converted manual mill. Just running a business is hard enough!
I like building and tinkering with new designs myself now that I have running machines already, but my first CNC unit was bought under similar circumstances to yours and I much valued the instant productivity of a ready-made professional unit. The drastically shortened curve for learning the specific machine due to the hands-on training that comes with a mill package was also invaluable and shouldn't be overlooked, as it turned the weeks of trial and error finding out what it can do and how best to make it do what you specifically need it to is shortened to a couple of days!

[sansbury]

Moving from a Sherline to a Tormach is like switching from a wheelbarrow to a dump truck. Do you want to do significantly larger work that you can't do on the Sherline or do you simply want something that can do Sherline-sized work with better results?

My first thought is that if you need just a wee bit more then a Taig might be a good fit. Heck, buy two Taigs and then you can keep running even when one is down for maintenance.

Unless you have a backlog of work that needs that Tormach then you could keep a lot of money in the bank. I would be very careful of investing in equipment right now unless I had an order backlog or something close to it, or unless the cash flow is not an issue (e.g. it is a hobby business you don't rely upon).

[sergizmo]

He will be doing a lot of steel. A Tormach would be a much better choice than a Taig for this unless quantities are low. If it were just aluminum then yes, a Taig or two would suffice.

Honestly, if he has the space, cash, etc... and orders are rolling in, a Tormach or IH is the way to go. He can take deeper cuts at faster feeds, mill a lot more parts at once, use R8 tooling (Tormach quick change would speed things up even more.), machine parts to tighter tolerances, and not have to adjust backlash nuts all the time. This is more than just work envelope.

sansbury, I do agree with you that he should proceed with caution if orders are just trickling in. But if things continue to grow (and from the OP's post it sounds like they are) then the Taig could prove itself a stepping stone in a year or less.

Serge

[sansbury]

I agree that work envelope is not everything. I was simply going by the OP which sounded like he was almost getting by just using the Sherline. All the parts he describes working on are pretty small.

In that vein another option to consider are the small Smithy CNC mills which look like the Sieg KX1 and KX3. They have ballscrews and the KX1 complete is a little less than half the price. One of the guys in the UK who tested it ran a very nice looking 4-5" train wheel out of 303 stainless on it with good results.

The first two years after staring my business I argued with my partner all the time about where we needed to hire more people, get more servers, etc. He always advocated to run right up to the breaking point (and maybe even a little past) and only then go for it. In hindsight I think he was right 9/10 times. Cash is earned in nickels and dimes and spent in tens and twenties.

What I am advising is to think long and hard on whether his business needs the Tormach in order to flourish, or whether he simply wants one. According to the post he is looking at making the transition to doing this business full-time. This happens to be one of a couple of times when a lot of people make fatal mistakes. $4000-$7000 more cash in the bank could be the difference between life and death six months from now. It also might be money better spent on advertising, going to shows, etc. to bring in more business.

If things do work out well then he should have no problem upgrading down the road. If he hits a rough patch then cash in the bank will do him a lot more good than that shiny new machine. Just speaking from experience having gotten my teeth kicked in once or twice.

[g29cc]

I realize that $10,000 is alot of cash to out lay for something that turned from hobby to small side business to full time business ( and praying to keep it going ) in less then a year. Now I just dont strictly do CNC work. I do alot of Chrome Plating , Coatings, Polishing , Specialty Gun Smithing and more. So this will probably be my biggest purchase to date.

My reasoning for going with the Tormach is plug n play. Size and ability for future use down the road. I dont see myself needing to have to upgrade a year down the road with this.

The Sherline Lathe and Mill , well lets say the mill is 6 months old and the lathe is probably only 4 months old. And I ve already out grown them tremendously. If even on a hobby scale, the amount of money spent on tooling and this and that to fit onto the sherlines when I had full size tooling for my manual machines was something I was really bummed about. But live and learn. The sherlines cut parts and pretty much paid for themselves already, so I guess in reality I cant complain too much.

I have a few vendors that are very large that I can do work for, but I am afraid of doing something for them in a production state with the Sherline for now. I am not sure if a couple of small jobs might lead to alot of small or larger jobs or not. But if I have the opportunity to expand with them, I dont want to be last minute trying to get the Tormach coming to me.

This is will be a purchase made within the next 6 months, unless the money tree I planted grows faster then I expected.

I am looking to do production work on my parts I produce and small runs for local shops here. So the ability to kick out the work and have it be good is important. The ability to do stainless steel and other hard steels is very important. Reliability and rigidty are things I am looking for.

I have a project right now on the sherline I pretty much babysit with fear that it might be that part I am cutting that will blow it up or disable it greatly. I need to be able to set it up and run it without having to hold its hand. Hence the reason for the Tormach. I believe it maybe be overkill for me to start out with , but I also think overkill never hurt anyone really ( maybe your pocket book or marriage ).

I appreciate the responses.

Thanks
Todd

[g29cc]

I agree that work envelope is not everything. I was simply going by the OP which sounded like he was almost getting by just using the Sherline. All the parts he describes working on are pretty small.

In that vein another option to consider are the small Smithy CNC mills which look like the Sieg KX1 and KX3. They have ballscrews and the KX1 complete is a little less than half the price. One of the guys in the UK who tested it ran a very nice looking 4-5" train wheel out of 303 stainless on it with good results.

The first two years after staring my business I argued with my partner all the time about where we needed to hire more people, get more servers, etc. He always advocated to run right up to the breaking point (and maybe even a little past) and only then go for it. In hindsight I think he was right 9/10 times. Cash is earned in nickels and dimes and spent in tens and twenties.

What I am advising is to think long and hard on whether his business needs the Tormach in order to flourish, or whether he simply wants one. According to the post he is looking at making the transition to doing this business full-time. This happens to be one of a couple of times when a lot of people make fatal mistakes. $4000-$7000 more cash in the bank could be the difference between life and death six months from now. It also might be money better spent on advertising, going to shows, etc. to bring in more business.

If things do work out well then he should have no problem upgrading down the road. If he hits a rough patch then cash in the bank will do him a lot more good than that shiny new machine. Just speaking from experience having gotten my teeth kicked in once or twice.

Very valid points indeed. While my wife on the other hand says the same thing. Do you really need it right now. Well she understands that when something takes me forever to get done because of the ability of the sherline mill then its worth it to get something bigger. But on the other hand, money in the bank is better then nothing in hand. I agree 100%. This might be a purchase a year from now as well if things dont keep at a steady pace. And your right on the advertising and stuff like that. Its not easy ( I know you all know that ) to be on your own, I have several buddies with 25 year + businesses and they tell me that all the time. But to not get discouraged.

But I think your right. I ll be researching this more until I feel comfortable that I am in a spot that I can afford to make that decision and not have to worry about food on the table if I make the wrong decision. I am usually one to think things out and do them quickly. And like you said 9/10 I am usually right. But I can afford to have this one be # 10 LOL.

Thanks
Todd

[sergizmo]

Todd,

If you are going to be milling stainless, then I agree that a larger machine is the way to go. This rules out the Taig entirely. Period. Milling stainless properly with any speed and depth of cut to a decent tolerance requires a beefy machine. I'm sure some of the hobby guys may have milled some nice parts out of 303 on a sieg. But doing the odd part with no timetable and running production with deadlines is another thing entirely.

The less time you spend on the CNC to make the required parts, the more time you have to spend on platings, coatings, finishing, marketing, paperwork, etc... Or, it will allow you to keep a regular job and do this on the side to make some major cash as machining time is a lot less.

Plus, using a Tormach will produce better parts to tighter tolerances in materials like stainless than a sieg. Ground screws and more mass are prime reasons (along with better quality overall). So better quality parts in less time. That equates to happy customers and positive word of mouth advertising.

Your business is blowing up. Going from hobby to enough work to even consider full time in less than a year is very rapid growth. If you can swing it the Tormach is the way to go.

I know what you mean about machining in fear with the Sherlines. I had the z screw break on my CNC mill (where it is turned down to go through the bearings). Sherline fixed it for me and replaced a couple other parts. I then made a counter weight system and removed all Z rapids (now just 8-10 IPM) to relieve stress on the screw and reduce wear on the Z axis saddle where it contacts the ways. The backlash nuts need constant attention, and they can't be over tightened or there will be binding at the ends of travel. The Y has been especially problematic in this regard. This is just for aluminum and brass. My orders have been coming in slowly, so I'm hopefull the machine will last until a replacement is up and running.

I wouldn't trust the Sherline to do any kind of large production runs either. If it goes down on you (likely) and you have to wait a couple weeks to get it running, you may miss a deadline. In the early stages, keeping everyone happy is key. Word of mouth and reputation with regards to a little niche business are very important.

With the work you want to do, orders coming in, and sufficient budget, get the Tormach.

Good luck,
Serge

[sansbury]

You shouldn't get discouraged. If people are paying you money for your stuff then you have a little seed of possibility. Most ideas (and people) never get to that stage. It's hard! The key to making it through the next stages is to avoid easy mistakes like running out of money planning for production you never need.

A lot of this comes down to whether $10k is real money for you, i.e. could easily be the difference between the mortgage payment getting made or not. If not, then buy the thing and don't look back.

One thing I would not worry about is what to do if you get a large order that you can't possibly turn around on your Sherline. If you're making a unique custom part that they can't get somewhere else then they are just going to have to put up with the time it takes you to make it. If it goes well you can promise them a discount or something on the next batch to make up for it. This is a very unlikely problem. The more likely problem is that you won't have many more orders than you do now. I watched someone take a very good idea and lose her shirt by making exactly this mistake. The second hardest thing in the world is to fill orders. The first hardest is to get those orders in the first place!

Another thing I would really investigate the heck out of is whether you can get a shop to make these for you. I don't know if they all have to be customized, if not, I'd take the prints out for a walk and ask guys how many you'd have to order to get a certain price. Let's say it's 100 at $30 each. Now the question is, how much will it cost you to sell all hundred of them? Let's say you figure if you go to three gun shows you will sell out and it will cost you $1500 for gas, hotel room, table fees, etc. So your cost to show up at the dance is $4500 which means you need to sell the widget for at least $45. Can you do that?

Now if you go to twice as many shows can you sell twice as much? What about buying ads, mailing lists, sponsorships, etc.? If you order a run of 200 or 1000 can you get them made for 10%, 25%, 80% less per piece? If you can cut the price in half will you sell a few more, or ten times as many, or maybe even fewer!?

If you are really in a product business then the best place for you to be is out there (especially in the beginning) moving product. Unless your product is custom craftsmanship (i.e. your time + knowledge) then manufacturing is probably the wrong place for you to be.

Also, don't quit your day job until you absolutely have to. Back in the day, I was starting a company partly because I didn't like the one I was at, but my partner held me back. In the end my day job closed up shop, and while I was happy at the time (free at last!) in hindsight had I been able to stay maybe 6 months longer, I wouldn't have suffered that much, but financially it would have left me much healthier. Had I pulled the plug when I wanted to (6-12 months sooner), I probably wouldn't have made it.

Anyway, that's how I look at this sort of thing. It sort of comes down to how much you enjoy making money vs. making parts. Great entrepreneurs will have a little of both but there needs to be a proper balance.

[g29cc]

I totally understand were your coming from. My first venture into the field netted me with enough polishing supplies, that I havent bought any supplies except a few certain compounds in 5 years !!! So I understand that one well. The mix of manufacturing and customizing is split right now, with both averaging about equal or close to each other atleast.

A few of the products I have released have been selling good to the public, but I would like to get out of that realm and try to stick to selling to suppliers, or atleast have a vast majority of my sales be to suppliers. I know you have to start some place and the public is an easier place to pitch a product and start to make money when your small. Atleast that has been my experience.

As for quitting my day job. Well lets say I had a motorcycle accident two surgeries , came back to work for 2 months and was let go !! So after several attempts at working for myself in the past, this one has taken off tremendously. My goal is to offer small runs of production myself and cut the costs of having to out source work to others.

Example.

I make a part that is discontinued. I am the only offering of this part. I offer it blue or black oxide, Nickel Plated or polished steel. I dont have to out source the coatings ( blue , black or nickel ) or anything else. Its all in house. My profit in the part is substantial. Every little bit counts and with no overhead, and no middle man for outside source, I can make good money. I know I cant do 100 parts per day like the outsource company can do for me. But at this point, I dont have 100 parts per day to fill. At my pace right now I am steady enough to keep my head above water and see the land at the same time. I am not getting rich, but I live in Michigan. So to half the population here I probably seem to be. Atleast I am working and making money and keeping the lights and food on the table and the roof above our head.

I realize that buying the Tormach isnt going to pay itself off in a couple of months like the Sherline did. But it will help me produce a better product , that while I am producing it with a sherline, will be quicker and better. My idea is that whenever I spend money I try to have that same amount set aside. Well this is alot of money for me to work with and to be honest, I ll probably have half of that set aside when I decide to buy the Tormach ( if thats what I decide to do ). I am not comfortable living on the edge week to week. So I wont break the bank. My idea to sell off some of my gun collection is just so I dont feel the pain in the bank when I do my next purchase.

I greatly appreciate the words of wisdom from everyone. I am learning as I go and trying to get out there more so I am noticed.

Thanks
Todd

[sansbury]

Todd,

Sounds like you are asking a lot of the right questions and making some great progress. Most important you have some good people near you to consult with. I would have failed long ago without my business partner. You don't need a partner (though a good one is invaluable) but you do need people you can kick ideas around with who know their @$$ from their elbow.

Right now you are effectively selling your time. It just happens you are a jack of all trades who can do just enough of everything to be a complete business all by yourself. But the downside with this is that there is a limit to how much you can scale which is that you can only work so many hours and every hour you spend on one thing (plating parts) is an hour you can't spend on something else (selling parts).

In the one-man-band approach what is effectively happening is two things:

1. Efficiency: You can make one piece cheaper than anyone else because you don't have the setup costs or overhead (moving parts from machine shop to plating shop, etc) that a normal job shop has.

2. Cheap Time: A lot of guys will work sun up to sun down all week and at the end think they're doing OK because they made $700 after costs. But with the 70 hours they put in, all they did was sell their time for $10 an hour. Try hiring a good CNC machinist/plating/shipping and receiving guy for that price with no benefits! The reason the job shop will charge $50/hour is that they need to pay guys a real wage and cover their costs.

Granted there are sometimes reasons to do these things. If you can work 20 hours a week whenever you feel OK enough to work and not have to worry about a boss who needs you to show up consistently then it may be worth the tradeoff. However even if that is the case I want to throw some alternatives out there.

1. You can be a cheap anything. The key is to be cheap labor that produces longer term value. Making a part is a cost, plain and simple. Making a deal with a reseller is an investment. The payback on being the world's cheapest salesguy is a lot better than being the world's cheapest machinist.

2. Maybe you can't job it all out, but can you optimize a little bit? Perhaps you can use a job shop to produce partially-finished blanks for you, which don't require nearly as much machining to finish with your small tools. Likewise, if you did a plating run once a month, could you stack up enough parts to make it worth sending them out? Even if not, does this use your time a little more efficiently at least?

For comparison, I have a product I sell which is partly-customized which I used to promise customers I'd turn around in a couple days, but often had a hard time doing so which ended up causing quality problems. When I switched to promising it in 7-10 days, the quality improved a lot, my on-time delivery rate went north of 90%, and my customers were a lot happier. For most, another week of wait wasn't that big a deal. For the occasional crank who wants it fast I now charge a rush fee and have a better chance of doing it since the workload is less chaotic. People will always say they want it sooner. However, if you are the only guy they can get a critical part from, then their choice is pretty constrained.

My gut sense is that having some in-house production capability is going to be good for you. However, I also feel like you may want to put some of that money towards developing sales channels a little bit more first. I don't know exactly how you sell product, but things I would think about are:

1. Google adwords: you could advertise based on a part number or keyword like "Springfield x123 trigger retaining thingamajig." All you need is a simple website for people to find out a little more and contact you.

2. Gun shows: I would go as an attendee and talk to all the dealers who show up. Get cards printed up and hand out and just shake a lot of hands. Go early or late when traffic is low and htye have time to kill.

3. Mailings: spend time with Google, magazines, phone books, etc. and put together lists of shops/distributors/etc. who could be potential clients/resellers. You can get cards printed up and mailed for about a buck each in 4-color, double sided. Follow them up with phone calls. Remember, you're not trying to sell anything, you're just introducing yourself as a resource they can call on to help their customers.

The other thing that is great about building relationships with dealers and the like is that you may also find out about new requirements you haven't thought of. Ultimately if you can build up enough channels then you may end up with even bigger/fancier equipment than a Tormach. But either way I am willing to bet your biggest obstacle to increasing sales right now is not your machinery. Don't focus on a part of the process just because it is the one you enjoy drilling down on.

[g29cc]

Awesome info and I greatly appreciate it. I sponsor a few forums and advertise heavily in alot of forums. I havent quite hit a comfortable level to think of advertising in a big magazine, as I dont see too many people of my area of work (meaning custom gunsmith parts) that I think the ads in magazines might not turn profit as much as it would cost. I could be dead wrong. But I am talking now with a couple of local monthly prints that will boost my sales.

I also have a few suppliers I am trying to get to sell my products. I have open doors to two of them, and I am as of today , sent parts to them to evaluate.

I have a website and business cards for quite some time now. I guess in order to show a little back ground, I didnt just start doing this six months ago. I ve been side business for a very long time, each year or try to be full time, I ve added more ability and services to better cover a wider range of people and market. The CNC's were new 6 months ago. The machine work isnt new, but now that I am on my own, I picked up the CNC's for the better part and service ability. I ve been working as machinist/fabricator/welder/finisher for 16 years. So the field isnt new either. I ve been in prototype for 14 years. So thats not new either. But putting it all together by myself, marketing , sales, invoices, machining , customizing , shipping/receiving and accountability and everything else in between has been me. Some areas I am green in and learning fast and furiously. Other areas, I am excellent in ( I am a great salesmen ). Word of mouth in the last 6 months has taken off like crazy. I get people emailing me all the time saying they heard from this guy who's brother had work done by me, or they saw a picture and want that done etc.

So things are picking up all over. I on an honest serious note probably work about 50 hours a week at this. I fortunately unfortunately watch the kids while my wife works during the day. They are self sufficient pretty much with the oldest being 14 , he runs the show pretty much and the rest are close in age. So I am not changing diapers and what not. But a short zip to drop one off at summer school, another at a friends house sometimes is a good lunch break for me. Other times its a pain when I am in the middle of something and rolling good.

But the information you have given me is excellent words of wisdom. I ve sponsored a few Cancer Motorcycle Charity type events. A few Veterans Events and things like that. While those are more for my desire to help those unfortunate, they are also a way for me to get my name out there. I pass out business cards like crazy and have my dad and others passing them out as well. I ve gone and talked to a few local shops already and have interest from them. But problem with Michigan is lack of work and having the highest Unemployment of any state. So local work pickup kinda sucks. But 95% of my work has all been internet related.

Anyways, I am hoping I am on the right track. My next issue is room. I am filling up my work shop with tool after tool and setup and setup and have run out of space. We are now looking for a bigger house with a bigger outbuilding.

Blah blah blah lol.

Anyways, I cant say again how much I appreciate the info. Alot of it is something I am aware of , but it never hurts to be put into another perspective , or to have it be more reinforced. Or just be put in another point of view.

Thanks again
Todd

[g29cc]

Well I just landed a couple of decent jobs. And with these couple jobs puts me alot closer to make a decision. I still like having a big chunk of money in the bank though .....

Again I appreciate all the advice and info guys.

[sansbury]

Hey if any of it helps you I'll be really happy. I've got six people working for me now every one of whom takes home a paycheck considerably larger than mine so I have respect for anyone who makes their own job whether it's just themselves or a hundred people.

From what you said above I think it's really important that you try to build markets outside of Michigan because that place is a dead zone. I have 150 customers spread across the US but I think I might have none in Michigan. All the rest of the midwest especially MN, WI, IL are all strong. If you are getting by in Michigan then you might be able to do *well* by spreading out. On the plus side as you mention the cost of living is low so it is a win-win deal for you.

I would think long and hard about the size and type of jobs you are really going to do and then invest accordingly. I mentioned the smallest Smithy machine b/c they are significantly bigger than a Sherline (though still pretty small!) but perhaps plenty big enough for your work parts?

http://www.smithy.com/product_order....id=16&pid=1007
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=27673

If you are going to use the larger size of the Tormach in a way that is really useful to the business (e.g. "People ask me to sell them X but I can't make it on a smaller machine") then it may be worth the extra $4-5k you will probably spend going that way. And the KX1 is newer so less of a known quantity though Smithy has also been around much longer than Tormach.

FWIW if your volume and needs made a strong business case for a Haas VMC then I would be talking to you about creative ways to raise the money for one.

FWIW2 I might look around on the Tormach forums for guys within driving distance of you who I bet would love to have some work to help pay for their purchases. The handful of times I've gone looking for cheap (and simple) machine work I've never had a hard time finding guys with more tools than jobs. Tormach might even help put you in contact for customer reference purposes. Again I would just look at any way I could to stretch just a bit longer.