[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hi,

I would like to know what you guys think of this indexable end mill? Please keep in mind it will be used in a hobby environment for one's and two's not production work, cutting 12L14 (ENA1) steel and aluminium.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/16MM-INDEXABLE...QQcmdZViewItem

Do you think it will end up in a draw never to see the light of day again?

Should I spend more on a known quality brand?

Thanks for any input,
John

[Mitsui Seiki]

For £32? Go for it!I bet it's just as good as any other.

[BobWarfield]

A couple of things to consider.

First, at 16mm = about 5/8", for me, that would be a bit marginal for a straight end mill. The reason? Because a regular 1/2" endmill will do just about everything that one will and more for a lot less money. True, you have to replace it or sharpen it periodically, but there's more flexibility.

I prefer to get larger, say 25mm/1" before I look at an end mill like this.

Second, for indexable tools, geometry and insert design matters a lot. I won't buy one unless I can determine that it has high positive rake geometry. I went looking on this one to try to see if I could find that info on the web, and couldn't find any indication one way or the other. Positive rake will give lower cutting forces which is better in most cases for the home shop machinist. The only advantage of negative rake tooling is longevity and sometimes being able to use more edges on the insert (largely a factor for lathe tooling).

I prefer to spend more money and get a larger, name brand, indexable mill with definite positive rake. If you look long and hard, you will eventually find one. Don't be afraid to look on US eBay either--shipping for such a small piece of tooling will be minimal.

I own a 1" Iscar Helimill that's a fantastic little cutter. I also have a Lovejoy facemill that's 3" and is my favorite for all but final finish. The finish is fine, but I like the look of a single pass, so I use a fly cutter on the last pass for anything over the 3" width my Lovejoy will handle.

Both of these are positive rake. That brings me to my last point. Be sure to price inserts before you buy a cutter. My Lovejoy face mill was brand new and sold by Lovejoy themselves on eBay. The downside is new SPEX inserts are hard to find and not cheap.

I hope this has helped.

Best,

BW

[dertsap]

nothing wrong with that price , for the price of the inserts alone you are more or less getting the tool for free
MITSUBISHI isnt junk
as for your question , your the only one who knows if it will be sitting in the drawer

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Second, for indexable tools, geometry and insert design matters a lot. I won't buy one unless I can determine that it has high positive rake geometry. I went looking on this one to try to see if I could find that info on the web, and couldn't find any indication one way or the other. Positive rake will give lower cutting forces which is better in most cases for the home shop machinist. The only advantage of negative rake tooling is longevity and sometimes being able to use more edges on the insert (largely a factor for lathe tooling).
I hope this has helped.

Best,

BW

I will contact the seller and see what I can find out about the negative/positive rake. What would you call a “high positive rake” in degrees?

My mill only has 1.3 HP (1000 watts) and the largest recommended end mill is only 16mm but I am unsure how this would apply to an indexable?

MITSUBISHI isnt junk

That’s good to know thanks

I am happy to buy from the US so will do a world wide search but in the mean time if any one would like to make a recommendation on a reasonably price quality tool I am all ears. Any links would also be appreciated.

Thanks,
John

[cam1]

Hi:
For home/hobby use indexable tools are a waste of money (in my opinion).
It's nice to have some indexable facemills for bigger jobs, but for C12L14 id just stick to HSS. The whole purpose behind indexable tooling is for production, where when last I checked the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.
I'm not trying to flame you, but indexable tools really are designed to "fly", and for the size of the mill described, I'd recommend sticking to HSS.

just my 2c cents

cheers

[dertsap]

Hi:
the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.

????
index tools will fly or hog
ive run them for hrs if not days under full production without changing an insert

running hss in my opinion is a joke ,carbide is the way to go , if your resourcefull they don t cost much at all

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hi:
For home/hobby use indexable tools are a waste of money (in my opinion).
It's nice to have some indexable facemills for bigger jobs, but for C12L14 id just stick to HSS. The whole purpose behind indexable tooling is for production, where when last I checked the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.
I'm not trying to flame you, but indexable tools really are designed to "fly", and for the size of the mill described, I'd recommend sticking to HSS.

just my 2c cents

cheers

All opinions are very welcome and will be taken into consideration.

Thanks for your time

John

[Oldmanandhistoy]

running hss in my opinion is a joke ,carbide is the way to go , if your resourcefull they don t cost much at all

I don't buy HSS after reading threads on the Zone.

John

[Oldmanandhistoy]

I think a good reason for indexable even for a hobbyist with an under powered mill is that with Ebay insert prices it would work out cheaper than buying standard carbide end mills.

Might be wrong
John

[BobWarfield]

I think a good reason for indexable even for a hobbyist with an under powered mill is that with Ebay insert prices it would work out cheaper than buying standard carbide end mills.

Might be wrong
John

No, I think that's exactly right. That's why I look at the 1" and larger figure.

I don't know what mil you have, so I can't advise whether you would have use for a bigger end mill. Which model is it?

RE number of degrees of positive rake, that's going to be very application specific. You can get the rake from either the way the insert is mounted or the insert itself. Very often it is a combination.

I'd ask the seller to point you to the manufacturer's web page for the end mill. Take a look there and just see if positive rake is mentioned. For example, here is the Lovejoy facemill page I mentioned:

http://www.lovejoytool.com/f225.htm

It mentions both the positive rake and goes on to say, "ideal for small and light duty machines in general purpose applications." That's us home guys! Most of the manufacturers will make such a mention.

Your 12L14 leaded steel should be very easy to machine, BTW. You won't need the last word in cutter technology to do it. Nevertheless, eventually you'll want to cut something else.

And I would definitely not discourage carbide on these small machines. It works great.

Best,

BW

[Oldmanandhistoy]

No, I think that's exactly right. That's why I look at the 1" and larger figure.

I don't know what mil you have, so I can't advise whether you would have use for a bigger end mill. Which model is it?

RE number of degrees of positive rake, that's going to be very application specific. You can get the rake from either the way the insert is mounted or the insert itself. Very often it is a combination.

I'd ask the seller to point you to the manufacturer's web page for the end mill. Take a look there and just see if positive rake is mentioned. For example, here is the Lovejoy facemill page I mentioned:

http://www.lovejoytool.com/f225.htm

It mentions both the positive rake and goes on to say, "ideal for small and light duty machines in general purpose applications." That's us home guys! Most of the manufacturers will make such a mention.

Your 12L14 leaded steel should be very easy to machine, BTW. You won't need the last word in cutter technology to do it. Nevertheless, eventually you'll want to cut something else.

And I would definitely not discourage carbide on these small machines. It works great.

Best,

BW

My Mill http://www.chesteruk.net/store/century_vs_mill.htm but I am seriously considering a better machine.

I will ask for the manufactures website and see what comes up. Seems to be a good price after a little further searching but that may be reflected in quality.

I’m a wood machinist by trade and know what difference quality tooling can make especially on lighter machines so believe the same would be for milling metals.

Thanks again,
John

[Oldmanandhistoy]

This one has positive rake and would probably work out cheaper.

http://www.nsertuk.com/website/viewP...ts_id=01147051

Insert price £4.11 each (not on Ebay) I cant buy a 16mm carbide end mill for that price.

http://www.nsertuk.com/website/viewP...ts_id=01146561

John

[BobWarfield]

Sounds like you got it nailed, John!

FWIW, I would see using that mill mostly to clean up edges when you don't want to flip them up and take a face mill to them or to cut L-shaped pieces from rectangular stock. I would not try to cut a slot with that big a cutter on your machine. Cut a much smaller slot and then work the edges individually.

You've got a fine mill there. Unless you just desperately want to move up, I'd work with it for a while. You'll learn a lot and build many a fine project.

Cheers,

BW

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Sounds like you got it nailed, John!

FWIW, I would see using that mill mostly to clean up edges when you don't want to flip them up and take a face mill to them or to cut L-shaped pieces from rectangular stock. I would not try to cut a slot with that big a cutter on your machine. Cut a much smaller slot and then work the edges individually.

You've got a fine mill there. Unless you just desperately want to move up, I'd work with it for a while. You'll learn a lot and build many a fine project.

Cheers,

BW

Thanks Bob,

Defiantly will not be plunging with this end mill.

Unless I find anything better it will be the BAP300 or some one else has a better idea.

I’m in no rush to up grade just yet as I have a LOT to learn and it’s not long been CNC’d

John

[cam1]

Hi:
Dertsap, the point I was trying to make, was that indexable tooling is designed for production. Looking at that little mill, the HP available, and the DOC,SFM and FPT of the tool, it doesn't make sense to use that kind of tooling. I fully understand the logistics of using indexable tooling in a production environment, where you need to crank out x number of parts/hr in order to make a profit. At home, the required accuracy and intended end use tend to allow some relaxation in the "hurry up" attitude we take when we're earning our living. That's why I recommended HSS tools for small hobby mills.


cheers

regards

[dertsap]

cam
im not sure if youve thought it all out
inserts have been around far longer than production machines (cnc)
insert endmills are designed as diplosibles and are far more cost effective which is a good thing for the home handyman , inserts are cheap and you get two corners to beat on . insert endmills are tougher than an average endmill which makes them superior on tough metal , if as you said in you previous post the average insert life is 15 minutes ,then what would be the life of a hss endmill or carbide at that ,i can assure you it would be far less
you can buy inserts for steel or aluminum

bottom line is you can throw two $5 inserts in the garbage or throw at the very least 2 endmills

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hi:
Dertsap, the point I was trying to make, was that indexable tooling is designed for production. Looking at that little mill, the HP available, and the DOC,SFM and FPT of the tool, it doesn't make sense to use that kind of tooling. I fully understand the logistics of using indexable tooling in a production environment, where you need to crank out x number of parts/hr in order to make a profit. At home, the required accuracy and intended end use tend to allow some relaxation in the "hurry up" attitude we take when we're earning our living. That's why I recommended HSS tools for small hobby mills.


cheers

regards

Cam1,

A quick question if I may; taking into account the specifications of my inferior machine, will running an indexable end mill give poor tool life compared with a HSS end mill and a poorer finish?

The reason I ask is that for the price of inserts I cannot buy a HSS tool. It makes no sense not to use indexable.

[MazakMikeO]

We would get about 15mins tip life cutting alloyed steels, then use another edge. Cutting aluminium, inserts can last for days or weeks before being changed, and thats in a heavy production environment!

Tool life is dependant on many factors, correct feeds and speeds, tool and setup rigidity, and correct cutter placement and direction to name a few.

[Verfur]

one must look at the min required doc and feed for the chip break and ask yourself if the machine has the power and regidity that it would take. We use them all day long and love them and yet I have to agree that a standard end mill works great as well. Hum carbide vrs hss/cobalt each has its place and in that place it can out perform the other. So to say carbide only would be a losing battle. And todays coatings for end mills and inserts wow, and then we get to CBN they will out run carbide where they will work. And diamond coated inserts and tools are smoking too.

But each in its own place and time.

Oh check the corner radi, as a general you min DOC is = to the corner radi

Just my five cents worth I think that will cover the tax and the two cents