[antichip]

Hello everyone,

I have been coming here, reading and dreaming for a long time. I have some electronics background and better than average tech level compuer skills but I am still consider myself to know almost nothing. I purchased a 8X14 HF mini lathe about a year ago and was happy with it for the 450+ shipping I paid.
About 3 months ago I got a job at a machine shop as a maintaince man. They have not had one for 2+ years so there was all kinds of things to do. I am running machines and learining mastercam X. We do very precision parts, many of them with some tenths tolerances. Titanium and stainless and Al. I really had no buisness getting the job and am having fun. I'v run the CMM LOL. I have my own products to make, so I need my own machines.


So I doubt this all belongs here but here goes.


I have not bough a mill yet. I am looking at the grizzly 519 .
I want to do a high speed spindle, or higher speed anyway. I also need this to have 4 and 5 axis controls and software. How good can emc get with the right motors and and other goodies? Conjoined rotary tables seems to be the easiest 4/5 axis setup. Is it the best? Does any of this machine control software use true position feedback and corection? like glass scales or ??
So first thing to go would be the drive motor. What will the limit for these bearings be? I am looking at a 12 grand budget for equipment and control software, this is also the design software budget.

The lathe will be converted to full CNC. Bar puller or pusher is required so must be multi tool capability. Live tooling of some type in the future. I would like to replace the main drive motor with a large servo, like a mori JR or 35/40 z servo? All machine screws will be replaced with ballscrew drives.

manual operation of each machine will be virtual using encoder wheels or jog sticks.

I have been reading and reading and my head spins.


Controllers and drives, Are there drives that will run like any motor? servo or stepper? Or are thes drivers kinda mix and match. large HV servo on lathe spindle and small stepper on tool slide. If you would of asked three years ago it was all gecko, now what is really the best budget units.

Control software. How do the current offerings of software deal with multi monitor and serial display. like a backlit vfd with spindle speed and load regardless of pc screen ect.

I am very limited on room so these small machines must be made to work, then they will pay for a space for larger machines, or so goes the tale.

I would like to use this as a dump for my stupid ideas in this undertaking to catalog them as they develop. Please feel free to inlude all revelant info sources and component sources.

Thanks for your time.

[nlancaster]

I am in the process of building my first CNC router. But I still drool over machines from industrial hobbies...http://industrialhobbies.com/. You should take a look at them.

[antichip]

Yes, I looked like three years ago. They are still expensive. There really should be no part for this operation that I cannot build at work. I also see many lacking elements I would like to have in the final version. For 10 grand it better have auto part changer.

[pzzamakr1980]

Hmm, for 10 grand it better have an auto changer? If you can find a machine for less than 25 with an auto changer in that size please let me know. As far as making something, take a look at hossmachine.com. He's doing one right now that would work with the sieg x2 and could easily be adapted to the sieg x3.

If you are looking at the 519, spend the extra and get the version that Industrial Hobbies makes. Their machine started out like the 519 but it's now far more capable and rigid and far better designed for only slightly more with a much much larger work envelope and just a far better machine all around. Plus Gene is fantastic to talk to and get help from.
With either the 519 or the IH mill, a higher speed spindle would be possible with a vfd and a different motor. I have been told 7000 is about the ceiling for the IH. And with the 519 anything more than 3500 may be pushing it. The IH has better gears, bearing, etc that would be able to handle that speed while the 519 is just not designed for a faster spindle.
For feedback, you would have to run servo's and encoders. That would be your only option for cnc. Glass scales would be DRO only for this application at this price scale.
I dont think it would really matter if the vfd is backlit since your hopefully not working in the dark, but I'm sure one must be available somewhere. Most vfds do have a display that would tell you the pertinent info
Control software = Mach. I dont think mach does separate displays but there is not really a need for one, I've never seen a haas or seiki or anything with multiple displays. I, being a computer geek, would like to see it just to see it, but its certainly not necessary, especially factoring cost. Mach has tabs that allow you to cycle between all the necessary info at will.
Please excuse me if I seem a bit insulting on this, I don't intend to be but I have to question what your asking and saying. You are stating that the IH is too expensive for what it is, but as near as I can tell, the machine is far more capable than anything out there for that price range. And with everything being done already, it's hard to fault. You could also go cheaper and get the do-it-yourself kit and put it all together yourself. Or as you stated, you could build everything yourself, but consider how much materials, electronics, ballscrews, vfd and motor, and it gets really high. Not to mention if you **** up and have to do it all over again. At the very least, toss out the idea of the grizzly 519 and get the IH mill. It is FAR better. And with a better foundation, you can build a much better machine than with the grizzly. Or consider a sieg x3, i have that right now and with the belt drive I just made I do 8000 rpm consistently. I may have to replace the bearings at one point, but thats cheap. There are also a plethora of cnc kits available for it and the sx3, and you could use servos on them. That would give you the feedback. As far it goes for me, the stepper system that I have works great. With all you are looking to do, even with everything being made at your shop, 12 grand is a bit low. Especially when you factor in the cost of a cam/cad software.

[philbur]

I don't think a true 4 or 5 axis machine, including software to produce the gcode, is anywhere near your budget. I think a 3 + 1 axis setup is.

Phil

Hello everyone,

I have been coming here, reading and dreaming for a long time. I have some electronics background and better than average tech level compuer skills but I am still consider myself to know almost nothing. I purchased a 8X14 HF mini lathe about a year ago and was happy with it for the 450+ shipping I paid.
About 3 months ago I got a job at a machine shop as a maintaince man. They have not had one for 2+ years so there was all kinds of things to do. I am running machines and learining mastercam X. We do very precision parts, many of them with some tenths tolerances. Titanium and stainless and Al. I really had no buisness getting the job and am having fun. I'v run the CMM LOL. I have my own products to make, so I need my own machines.


So I doubt this all belongs here but here goes.


I have not bough a mill yet. I am looking at the grizzly 519 .
I want to do a high speed spindle, or higher speed anyway. I also need this to have 4 and 5 axis controls and software. How good can emc get with the right motors and and other goodies? Conjoined rotary tables seems to be the easiest 4/5 axis setup. Is it the best? Does any of this machine control software use true position feedback and corection? like glass scales or ??
So first thing to go would be the drive motor. What will the limit for these bearings be? I am looking at a 12 grand budget for equipment and control software, this is also the design software budget.

The lathe will be converted to full CNC. Bar puller or pusher is required so must be multi tool capability. Live tooling of some type in the future. I would like to replace the main drive motor with a large servo, like a mori JR or 35/40 z servo? All machine screws will be replaced with ballscrew drives.

manual operation of each machine will be virtual using encoder wheels or jog sticks.

I have been reading and reading and my head spins.


Controllers and drives, Are there drives that will run like any motor? servo or stepper? Or are thes drivers kinda mix and match. large HV servo on lathe spindle and small stepper on tool slide. If you would of asked three years ago it was all gecko, now what is really the best budget units.

Control software. How do the current offerings of software deal with multi monitor and serial display. like a backlit vfd with spindle speed and load regardless of pc screen ect.

I am very limited on room so these small machines must be made to work, then they will pay for a space for larger machines, or so goes the tale.

I would like to use this as a dump for my stupid ideas in this undertaking to catalog them as they develop. Please feel free to inlude all revelant info sources and component sources.

Thanks for your time.

[antichip]

To justify the extra 30% IH price over the 519 I would have to see each one together myself, The bed is not that much larger, well I am frugle shal we say.

Design software will be suplied by my boss at no cost (or cash cost).

vfd vacume florcent display, or a 320x320 showing cordinates or whatever.

I would not make any of the high precision stuff, I'll just draw it and let a smart guy actually program it and run it. Or a couple of these cnc parts that I need to make will be some of my first programmed and done parts who knows.

High speed spindle on the mill is a big to do, so even if it will require complete rework, and or a seperate air spindle or something. Air grinder redone with precision brearings maybee?. This stuff is months out anyway. I have to start on the lathe first as I already have it in hand.

so what is so expencive about dual rotary tables with servos for 5 axis set-up?
we have precision hobs at work if they are that cheap of a table.

[digits]

To justify the extra 30% IH price over the 519 I would have to see each one together myself, The bed is not that much larger, well I am frugle shal we say.

Design software will be suplied by my boss at no cost (or cash cost).

vfd vacume florcent display, or a 320x320 showing cordinates or whatever.

I would not make any of the high precision stuff, I'll just draw it and let a smart guy actually program it and run it. Or a couple of these cnc parts that I need to make will be some of my first programmed and done parts who knows.

High speed spindle on the mill is a big to do, so even if it will require complete rework, and or a seperate air spindle or something. Air grinder redone with precision brearings maybee?. This stuff is months out anyway. I have to start on the lathe first as I already have it in hand.

so what is so expencive about dual rotary tables with servos for 5 axis set-up?
we have precision hobs at work if they are that cheap of a table.

For most people, software that can generate 5-axis tool paths is a real problem - it exists but it is very pricey. You also probably need to factor in 5-axis tool path simulation software unless you have enough luck to be able to win the lottery every time with a single ticket But let's just assume that you have access to the software...

If you build a 5-axis setup from two rotary tables, IMO you will have real backlash problems if you want to do 5-axis continuous stuff. Your servo will know where it is, but your CNC won't know where the table is as there is some slop in the 90:1 worm gear that the table uses. You could ofcourse put an encoder on the table itself, but getting the feedback between the servo and the table to work through such a large gearing factor might be problematic.

If on the otherhand you want to do 5-axis indexed stuff, or can force your SW to only run your rotary-tables in one direction, you will probably be able to do a lot of useful stuff.

There are other things to consider IMHO though - I have a 200mm/8" and 150mm/6" RT that I plan to use to add 2 axes to my 3-axis setup, but they will add a total of about 45kg/90lb to my table, and probably slow it down somewhat. They will also eat into the XYZ travels a lot, so unless all you jobs are going to be small enough to fit on the RT and into the reduced work volume, you are going to need to have some way to get it off and on the table easily.

It is all doable, but none of it is easy, and so it's all very expensive!

[antichip]

That was so much a better answer digits. I have yet to tear into a rotary table for myself, but I will within a week or so. We have gear hobbing eqiup that is old but hold very tight. and one of the goals is true positional feedback, if not for real time corection, but I do understand to cost factors involved with such acurate scales.

Single direction rotation is a thought to consider, how about a split gear, in half spring loaded for antibacklash, forget that, 90/1 or way more encoder gearing what bolted to the outside of the table?. that could use antibacklash split gears.

I could maybee add like 4 inch solid spacer between the base and main upright, looks bolted on? Use locating pins for positioning and greater repeatability for true center 0 ?

The head engineer and I were discussing software today. The boss is having the solid works guys out or something. THAT would not be part of my benifits package.

Theres always the posibility of making a brushless motor the size rotary table. Oh wait that would be silly. Ok I gota get up in 4.7 hours for a 1.5 hour dive to work. And I got home late tonight doing some remote rs-232 set-up in another CNC shop.