[TCGliderguy]

Is there any kind of rational approach to choosing software to run a Joe's 2006 or 4x4 hybrid machine?

The choices are overwhelming..... every kind of animal... Rhino, Dolphin, etc. Mach (can you really cut at the speed of sound?), Sheet, Bob,Desk,Turbo etc. etc. etc.

I see lots of references around here... to everybody's favorites, but how does somebody who has never cut anything make a reasonable first choice?
Obviously, a lot of these are specialized, for different types of cutting.... but what is a good, inexpensive choice to just drive the steppers around, and get started making chips?

-Taylor

[joecnc2006]

V-Carve Pro, and if you can get thier suite, all three programs are great, and the forums they have is very helpful, as far as a support, And tony is very active here also. not to mention phone suport if you need it, but very few do have to call, because the programs are very easy to learn and use, does most the work for you.

That would be my choice, but like you said depends on what you want to do with the machine.

Joe

[ger21]

You need to break it down into groups.

1) Control software. You must use control software to control the machine. You have several options. Mach3, TurboCNC, DeskCNC, CNC Zeus, and a few other more expensive ones. Most use Mach3, because it's inexpensive, it runs in windows, and most would say it's more powerful than the rest.

2) CAM software. Unless you want to write all your g-code by hand, you'll want to use CAM software. Inexpensive CAM software usually falls into 2 categories 2D (or 2.5D) and 3D. Mach3 includes a 2D CAM program, LazyCAM, for free. SheetCAM is a good 2D CAM program. And you can always use Ace converter for free. Vcarve Pro does 2D CAM plus V carving, and has the best raster to vector conversion I've ever used. For 3D CAM, look at Vectrics Cut3D or MeshCAM.

3)CAD or design software. You'll need some thing to create your designs and/or models you'll need to send to your CAM programs. You have a ton of options here, from Corel Draw to Expensive 3D CAD like Solidworks, and everything in between. Cheap CAD programs like DesignCAD and TurboCAD give a lot of bang for the buck. There's also Rhino, which can model just about anything in 3D, and does 2D as well.

It really comes down to what is your budget, and what you want to do. I recommend trying everything before buying anything. I've seen a lot of people buy software that just wasn't right for them, or the work they were doing, and end up buying something else later.

[TCGliderguy]

O.K.... so let's take this from the simplest level. Let's say that I just want to cut out 2D parts (like could be done by hand with a scroll saw).

I draw up my part in a CAD program...(I happen to have VectorWorks, TurboCad, and a couple of others that I can't even remember). I export the drawing as a DXF file.....

So now it needs to be converted to G Code, right? If Ace Converter (for free) will do the job, then why would I need anything more sophisticated? (Based on my simple, 2D example....)

Once converted, the G Code goes into Mach3.... and it controls the steppers, right?......

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around the options... Kinda like "I need to buy a new vehicle".... So what does a Ferrari do, and what does a dump truck do? "

Thanks for the help!

-Taylor

[calgrdnr]

Hello Taylor,

From this CAD idiot. I decided the quickest and easiest way to get my router up and cuting was to buy Mach3, V-Carve pro and PhotoCarve.

I am real happy with all three. The vectric software is about as simple to use as you can get. Compared to what I've read and seen on prices of other software that can do as much, it is cheap compared to them. If i had it all over to do agian there is somthings I would change about my router. But none in the choice of software I made except maybe getting 3D carve as part of the package to save little money. but I will still buy it soon, and I am sure it will be worth every penny.

I do have Autocad and a few other cad programs. I would like to learn them. But at this stage I can not think of anything I want to do that I can not do with V-Carve Pro.

Kent

[bp092]

vcarve pro and mach 3 go hand in hand, I use them along side autocad, but mach3 and vcarve are perfect for beginners and allow function advanced enough to do anything you need to do

[ger21]

O.K.... so let's take this from the simplest level. Let's say that I just want to cut out 2D parts (like could be done by hand with a scroll saw).

I draw up my part in a CAD program...(I happen to have VectorWorks, TurboCad, and a couple of others that I can't even remember). I export the drawing as a DXF file.....

So now it needs to be converted to G Code, right? If Ace Converter (for free) will do the job, then why would I need anything more sophisticated? (Based on my simple, 2D example....)

Lots of reasons.
1)Say ACE may want to cut in a certain direction, but you want to cut in the opposite direction. A CAM program will let you switch with a simple click or two.
2)ACE will program the tool so that the center of the tool follows the lines you've drawn. So you'll need to offset the lines in your CAD program 1/2 the tools radius, in order to get your parts the right size. CAM programs will create the correct toolpath automatically.
3)ACE will plunge the tool straight down into the work, which is bad for your router bearings as well as for the tool. CAM will let you ramp in gradually, and even give you several options for ewntering the cut from outside the actual part, to prevent gouging that may occur from the entry into the part.
4)Pocketing. Sure, you can pocket with ACE, but you'll have to draw all the toolpaths to clean out the pocket yourself. CAM can do pocketing with only the pocket border being drawn.
5)Drilling. ACE doesn't do drilling, but most CAM programs do.

Basically, with ACE, you need to actually draw the toolpaths that the tool will follow. Wherever you want the tool to cut, you draw a line (or arc).

With CAM software, you draw the part and let the software create the toolpaths.

Once converted, the G Code goes into Mach3.... and it controls the steppers, right?......

Sort of. Mach3 controls the stepper drives, which actually control the steppers.

[BobF]

TCGliderguy,
For what its worth. Since I was waiting on my kit, I spent time in the last few weeks playing with Mach and Sheetcam. I took the drawings Joe posted and was able to generate G-code that looks like it would cut parts for the machine on the Mach screen. Can't cut much yet.

[TCGliderguy]

Thanks..... The fog is starting to clear......

-Taylor

[ger21]

Here's another free 2D CAM program you might want to check out.
http://www.gsimple.eu/index.html

[TCGliderguy]

Dennis,

Thanks for the info..... your system looks very interesting.

I do have one question, though...... With your hardware/software combination, does that eliminate the possibility of using any other CAM software (for 3D contouring, for example?)

[TCGliderguy]

Dennis,

I spent quite a bit of time looking over your tutorial videos, and I am very impressed with what I see. (One small glitch... I can't get the "Using DXF Files" video to play... I just get a blank, white screen....)

The REALLY scary part is that I think I understand what I am watching...

I've got a few questions.....

1) Does your CamPod USB interface take some of the load off the computer?
I know that there are some issues running Mach3 with a laptop.... with the stepper pulses competing with the graphics display performance. What computer configuration (for Windows XP) do you recommend?

2) I see that your system is compatible with a joystick. Do you know if it would work O.K. with a USB Contour ShuttlePro? I edit video professionally, so I already own a couple of them.....

3) Is there any sort of users group for your software?..... Misery loves company, and it would be nice to have some users to ask dumb questions....

4) I was considering the HobbyCNC controller and 305 ounce/inch steppers. Do you have a larger option for NEMA 23 motors... or will your MightyBox be happy with other stepper motors?

5) Do you think your software and USB interface, MightyBox, etc. would be a good match for the Joe's 2006 machine ( 29 x 45 cutting area.... 3 Axis, etc.)

Thanks!

-Taylor

[Dennis Bohlke]

Taylor

Thank you for looking at the tutorials.

I checked the link to “Using DXF Files” and it seems to be ok. I went to a friend’s house and check to see if it worked there. Seems to be ok.

This is the direct link:
http://www.super-tech.com/root/flash...mrock_640.html

There are also some YouTube Videos
DXF to G-code File SuperCamXp Tutorial, 02:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGDbULSvTEA

Engraving Shamrock from DXF file on Desktop Taig Mill, 06:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORC4qnpk2ls

CNC Taig Mill Draw and Cut with SuperCamXp, 06:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1-mF14GYhU

As far as understanding how to use SuperCamXp with a machine, that generally takes about 20 minutes. If you have had any experience at all with a CAD program you will find it almost intuitive.

The CamPod does take a lot of the computing load off the host computer. As a matter of fact you can run multiple machines from the same computer all doing different things. I have found that you can run a machine with Mach3 while another machine is running with SuperCamXp through the USB port.

I have a Taig Mill running from this computer as I type, along with the CNCzone.com on explorer, Database for MIS, Outlook Express and the USB Camera focused on the mill. With the camera on the machine I can watch it from the screen, it’s nice to have a multi screen computer.

The minimum configuration of is a 1.2 ghz single processor computer. The windows Task Manager will show you on the Performance Tab if the computer can keep up with the requirements. When the CPU Usage is at 100% there can be problems.

The best configuration is a Duo processor as fast as possible. SuperCamXp is a true multi-thread application, one thread in background is responsible for motion control. It was developed on Pentium IV with HT option, 3.6ghz.

The Joystick to date is not fully implemented. It is just the development framework in place for using it. Moving an attached Joystick changes the numbers displayed. I am still not sure how I want it to interact with the machine. Your ideas are welcome on how you would expect it to work with a machine.

I do not use a joystick so I have no intuitive path to follow in how to use it. In short I haven’t figured it out yet.

I have left the Joystick in the program because I have visions of coupling it to the Camera command and adapting SuperCamXp to run a computerized gun, just a wild idea at this point. The mechanism could be fabricated on one of Joe’s machines.

The HobbyCNC controller with the 305 oz in motors would be a good match for Joe’s machine. The USB CamPod Brd URL: http://www.super-tech.com/root/grp.asp?p1=campodii can be made plug an play with their driver board. There is a blank socket setup for a DB25 Female on the CamPod board.

The Mighty box controllers use essentially the same motor drivers. They are assembled and tested and offer a no fuss solution for controlling one of Joe’s machines. They are either Parallel Port interface for Mach3 or the USB CamPod is embedded on the driver board.

The Mach compatible Parallel IO URL:
http://www.super-tech.com/root/grp.asp?p1=EMC-XYZMU

The USB with SuperCamXp URL:
http://www.super-tech.com/root/grp.a...SB-XYZ-MUBX-K3

The Mighty box controllers will work with the 305 oz inch motors.

I do think my software and USB interface and the Mighty Box controllers are a good match for Joe’s machines. I guarantee it. If you are not tickled pink with what you can do with it, send it back in 30 days and I’ll refund your money. Super Tech Scouts honor!

As far as a users group for SuperCamXp, that does not exist yet. For the most part I am available 12/7 via a phone call for dumb or intelligent questions. My phone number is at the bottom of every one of my web pages. There is no misery to be had it works as advertised.

I am not quite sure what category it would fall into here on the CNCzone, it is both design software and machine control software. But it is not exactly CNC in the traditional sense either.

It might be a good suggestion to the CNCzone admin to start one. Since I advertise here it would probably be a shoe in to start one.

The combining of a CAD program with direct machine control is the way I thought it should be. It is cowboy cnc, not what you are going to find in the traditional world.

Dennis
http://www.super-tech.com

[TCGliderguy]

Dennis,

Thanks for getting back to me...... Since my last post here, I downloaded the demo and have played with it extensively. I successfully imported DXF, GCode, and HPGL files (both the ones supplied by you, and ones that I scrounged on the internet, and even DXF's that I created myself in TurboCad. It was all very much "seamless".... at least to run a simulated cut.

I'd prefer to get the HobbyCNC controller board and steppers, due mainly to my sense of loyalty to good vendors. I've got one of their CNC hot wire cutting setups, and am very pleased with it.... and I like their 305 ounce stepper motors.

One last "public" question, and I'll stop bothering you. You furnish a sample file of a an angel, with the background cut away in relief. What software created the tool paths for that one? I envision doing quite a bit of that type of work.....

Thanks!

-Taylor

[Dennis Bohlke]

Taylor

The angel1.dxf originally came from Metal Working / General Machining Discussion / Share Your Files Part or Art thread.

The contributor was MikeGasMan, thanks.

I imported it into SuperCamXp, joined the lines and arcs.

Then I exported DXF, and imported it to CorelDraw, where I used the contour command to create the pocketing lines.

Then I exported it from CorelDraw and imported it into SuperCamXp again.

It was intended to be used with a 1/16 inch end mill.

It was a good test file because of all the gently sloped lines in the pocket cut out.

One cool thing about SuperCamXp is that you can import DXF and export it as HPGL, and visa versa.

I have used CorelDraw extensively with SuperCamXp. It is easy way of making cut letters and signs with raised lettering.

The simulate mode does not have motion blending in the simulation engine. So in fact the machine motion will actually be faster and smoother.

The motion blender algorithm in SuperCamXp hits all the nodes, it is not like in Mach3 where a small radius is imposed on each bend in the polylines.

What are the turns per inch on the lead screws used in your machine?

You can get a rough idea of just how fast or slow your machine will run if you put the proper parameters in the MCONFIG | Motors dialog window. The key variables are how far the machine moves in one revolution and how many steps there are per revolution. Then there is a step size calculator button that will set the step size parameters for each axis.

There seldom are issues with how accurate a machine is but there are often issues of how fast it will move. With the HobbyCNC boards you can adjust the steps per revolution of the drives to best match your machine and the CamPod.

Loyalty is a good thing.

Your postings are not a bother to me. It’s given me an opportunity to brag a little about my products.

Dennis
http://www.super-tech.com

[ger21]

The motion blender algorithm in SuperCamXp hits all the nodes, it is not like in Mach3 where a small radius is imposed on each bend in the polylines.

Then are you deviating between the nodes? If not, then you wouldn't be blending, right? Care to elaborate?

Also, does your software offer cutter compensation? On outside corners, compensation can get rid of those radius' you mentioned in Mach3, because the comped path can have a radius and still create sharp corners.

[Dennis Bohlke]

Gerry

The SuperCamXp motion blending algorithms are superior to the Mach3 program in maintaining tool path accuracy and fidelity. The Mach3 program may indeed execute the tool path faster, but SuperCamXp will certainly be more faithful to the intended tool path.

For almost twenty years maintaining motion positional accuracy has been paramount to me. I choose not to elaborate on how it is achieved.

The core objective of motion blending for me was not to have to ramp down and up at each node. There is a slide bar on the MCONFIG | Delays dialog form that sets the maximum angle of deflection in which the blended motion algorithm is applied, therefore at sharp corners the motion blending algorithm is not applied.

The level of look ahead is infinite, well not exactly it constrained by the space available for the system swap file on the hard drive.

Currently there are no cutter compensation features implemented. There is the Offset command just like in most CAD programs though.

Dennis
http://www.super-tech.com

[TCGliderguy]

Dennis,

I'll be ordering 1/2" x 10 (2 start) acme lead screws later this week.... I believe that will give me 5 turns per inch.... ?

I've printed out your instruction manual, and am going to start digging deeper into learning the software (including setting up a simulation of my actual machine).

I am really impressed with how the interface is layed out.... so well that a complete, blundering newbie like me can figure it out, and actually get a simulation to run.

Look out... I think you are about to get me as a customer. (another good example of "being careful what you wish for"...)

-Taylor

[Dennis Bohlke]

Taylor

I hope you are right about the lead screws being 5 turns per inch. That will make a really sweet running machine.

With the micro stepping controllers available, I have found it best to get the fewest turns per inch possible lead screws.

I made about a half dozen machines with 1 turn per inch lead screws. But that was years ago and I was using half step drivers.

Thanks for your comments about the interface layout. The last thing I wanted to be looking at was a replication of a traditional CNC control panel that really confuses me.

The user interface is modeled around the way Acad Version 10 was setup. With the addition of a small cross hair reticule representing the machine spindle/torch position.

When you want to move the machine around use the MoveTo command, on the sidebar menu, point and click with the mouse in the graphics area and the machine will move to the coordinates of the mouse click.

Some of the function keys work the same as in Acad such as grid, snap and ortho, on/off.

The bottom status bar has status panels related to the machine and the USB interface. Such as by clicking on the Relay A or Relay B panel you toggle on/off the associated relay.

SuperCamXp automatically turns the Relay A on/off. It is intended to control the spindle motor or plasma torch. It’s method of control is predicated by what type of mechanism is attached to the program, which is set on MCONFIG | Motors | Mechanism Type.

The Relay B has automatic modes for a dust vacuum, coolant control or automatic torch height control. The Relay B automatic options are on MCONFIG | Delays.

The clicks on the Select/Deselect panel will toggle motor drivers enable or disable.

The X, Y and Z panels display the status of the home limit switches.

The relay and motor enable/disable features are not going to be hardware present in the controller you intend to use.

The top status bar displays and controls the graphics interface. Such as clicking on the DrawUp panel toggles on/off the display of the rapid travel moves.

The Users Guide is still somewhat a work in progress for me. One command description that is missing is the Background command, it lets you put a drawing in background for fixtures and your hold down points on the table.

There are tool tips for just about every control in the program so in someways it is self documenting.

I look forward to seeing what you can do with SuperCamXp and one of Joe’s machines.

Dennis
http://www.super-tech.com

[TCGliderguy]

Dennis,

>One command description that is missing is the Background command, it lets you put a drawing in background for fixtures and your hold down points on the table.<

Now you're just teasing me..... I was going to ask if that was something that could be added on in a future version...... :-)

>I look forward to seeing what you can do with SuperCamXp and one of Joe’s machines.<

Not NEARLY as much as I am looking forward to it! :-)

I'm putting the finishing touches on the paint on the major components now.... and will be putting everything up on the tracks, probably tomorrow. I'm going to order the HobbyCNC controller and steppers from Mike Beck on Friday (because I need the steppers to do the drilling and tapping for the mounts)...... It's all coming together, and I am getting really excited about the possibilities with this machine!

-Taylor

P.S. - I'll throw out another question for anybody to answer. What would be the easiest way to leave little "tabs".... uncut areas... around the perimeter of small parts, cut from thin wood... so that they don't go flying around the router? Is there a way to add "gaps" to an outline in SuperCam XP.... or CorelDraw.... or somewhere else?