[jlcortes]

I want to present my project, I want to design and build a motogp or F1 engine (only a single cylinder research engine at the moment).


Target of my project :

Power output: 226HP (56.5HP @ 17000RPM) x 4 cylinder
Unitary displacement: 200cc
Maximum RPM: 18200RPM at 23.5m/s mean piston speed.
BMEP: about 13.5 Bar, more than 130% volumetric efficiency

Some stages of the project:

- Design and test valve train to rise up 18500RPM, it is better idea to test it with head not installed on engine, for example a electric motor driving camshaft.
- Design of bell mouth, throttle body, intake port, valve and valve timing to get more than 130% % of volumetric efficiency at 14500RPM, a CFD model could useful.
- Build, test, and fine tune a single cylinder research engine on dyno. Some tools to measure chamber pressure, volumetric efficiency, and intake, exhaust pressure pulses will be absolutely necessary.





I have making drawings in SolidWorks, i can share my designs if you want to help me. I have 31 years and to design hi-end racing engines is my dream.

http://www.sportdevices.com/arbizugp/puertos.jpg

First part machining:
http://www.sportdevices.com/arbizugp/mecanizado2.jpg

It is a expensive hobby for me and i am looking for financing for this project here in Spain, there are some serious motogp projects here in Spain, but it is dificult.

I have a f1 piston (ps01 minardi coswoth) and valve set of this engine! to use as starting point.

Any help will be welcomed

Jlcortex
http://www.sportdevices.com/jlcortex/

[elmerfud]

Hey jlc,
282 horsepower per litre is an extremely ambitous goal.
200cc x 4 = 800cc
226hp / 0.8 = 282hp
91mm Peugoet F1 piston, stroke is 30.8mm, a new benchmark for oversquare.
Your piston will do it real easy, as its designed for 25 metres per second.
In your motor it will doing a lazy,
(30.8 x 2) x 17000 = 1047200
1047200 / 60 = 17453mm or, 17.5 metres per second.
You wont have to worry about pistons exploding, although you may have an issue with big end bearing loads, is my gut feeling.
Your biggest problem will be, valvetrain, you could try smashing apart some nitrogen springs to steal the seals, they are used in press tool design, i doubt F1 suppliers will share their secret stash so readily.
AND, it all has to be titanium upstairs in the motor, except cam and piston, so, you have the mother of all ambitous projects ahead of you and I hope you hang in there and see it through, i salute you!

[elmerfud]

P.s I see a gilmer belt drive on the crankshaft for driving that camshaft.
FORGET THAT IDEA! Use straight cut gears! Toothed belt will disintegrate at 13000 rpm I am guessing. Look at a Honda CBR250 motor, this should give a picture of the stress's involved.

[Eson]

This is a very cool project and i give you much creds to accually pull it off.
I belive too that the biggest challange will be the valvetrain. Maybe you should go fully electric or pneumatic on the valvetrain? I belive that an electromagnet could keep up but i do know that pneumatic valves do.

In the left picture you can see a ghost image of the valve.

[NC Cams]

Having already been a project manager of a electropneumatic valvetrain engine program, I can say with true certainty that it is probably well beyond the realm of doability of the DIY'er. As a maker and designer of cams and valvetrain hardware, it also isn't that easy for even some of the "pros".

Re: pheutmatic valvetrain - We had the full faith, credit and tech support of a major Detroit OEM involved in the project I worked on and even then could not get the darn thing to run reliably. True, this was in the mid 90's time frame and, since then, F1 has figured out how to do the pheumatic spring thing. Even so, it takes bushels of money to do and that funding level is probably not an option for this project.

Moreover, getting 12,000rpm DOHC drag cycle cams to live/run is not easy - we've been down that path too. Even Cosworth had their share of issues at trying to make !2k rpm engines live at Indy - we know as well as we helped make some of the prototype cams that they used back when the DFX was the engine you HAD to run at Indy - still have some hanging on our QC room wall.

The valvetrain will DEFINITELY be a/the technical bottleneck/challenge for this project. No matter the team, no matter the funding level, high rpm valvetrains are NOT easy to design and even less easy to develop and MUCH harder yet to make live!!!! The speeds and forces that will be involved here will not be inconsequential and well beyond what even well intenteded SWAG's could probably endure/survive.

This will NOT be a trivial nor inexpensive pursuit if the member is truly serious about designing and building this engine.

[jlcortes]

Hi elmerfud,

No, I am not going to use my F1 piston, it is only as reference. i am thinking about something like Ducati GP7 desmosedici:

HP Stroke Bore Displacement rpm M/Speed bmep
56.5 38.8 81 199.93 18200 23.53 13.91

Yes, I am considering to use pneumatic spring, It is not a secret, you can buy it:

http://www.delwestusa.com/manufactur...tic_valves.asp

anyway, There are a lot of motoGP engines using coil springs.

i am working on cams for SuperSport engines and we have build this machine to measure cam profile:

http://www.sportdevices.com/camscanner/index.htm

[jlcortes]

Hi NC Cams,

I have not speak about electropneumatic or similar valve acting method!

You are true, it is not an amateur project!!!

I am thinking about to start with coil spring, stock supersport (R6 or GSXR600) engines get 16000 rpm with coil spring and i think it is not dificult to get 18000rpm and more.

I am planning to prepare a experiment with a alone cylinder head driven by electric motor in order to check correct valve movement without risk of valve to piston hitting.

THE TARGET OF MY PROJECT IS TO TEST AN MEASURE A PERFORMANCE (PISTON MEAN SPEED, VOLUMETRIC EFFICENCY AND BMEP) THAN EVERYBODY HAS READ IN MAGAZINES BUT FEW PEOPLE IN THE WORLD HAS HAD THE CHANCE TO DEVELOP OR TEST ON DYNO

[FPV_GTp]

.


Hi jlcortes ( www.sportdevices.com )

Welcome jlcortes , love all the stuff on your website , just love engine and chassis dynamometers have in total four at my workshop.

One eddy current brake dynamometer and three water brake engine dynamometer , one is a direct coupled 16000rpm@1500bhp Heenan & Froude g490EH unit.

It seems all you Spanish guys are motorcycle crazy speed racers which is fine and i have no issues with that. I love all forms of motor sports.

Your dream will only become a reality if you follower that dream " I want to design and build a motogp or F1 engine" and see no reason why you couldn't achieve your goal.

NC Cams , love all the input you put into this forum , from what i have read it seems you have been around the traps in the motor industry. But i detect a lot of negativity in some of the responses.

NC Cams are you a pessimism or optimist ( optimistic ) or realism ( realist ) ??

definitions of pessimism ( pessimistic ) and optimism ( optimistic ) -

pessimism ( pessimistic ) = The tendency to emphasize the gloomiest aspects of anything, and to expect the worst to happen.

optimist ( optimistic ) = The tendency to take a bright, hopeful view of things and expect the best possible outcome.

realism ( realist ) = The tendency to consider, accept or deal with things as they really are.

jlcortes keep up the good work , in the early to late 1960's the Sir Jack Brabham A Racing Legend From Down Under Australia www.jackbrabham.com showed the world how a little outfit had beaten the big boys at there game.
I had the privilege of seeing there workshop , which was just 10 minutes drive away from my workshops and sitting in the Jack's F1 racing car. Still the workshop had some of the castings of the engine they developed un machined.

It is a shame the Jack Brabham workshop was demolished to make way for a housing estate just a few years ago. Mahle pistons www.mahle.com had brought out ACL pistons division out just recently and they have move it to a new industrial estate. A bit of F1 historical value has been lost to developers.

Wish you all the best jlcortes in your project.

NC Cams don't take this as a personal attack of any kind it is purely my opinion and my own observation. NC Cams do you have a website i can have a look at ? if so can you PM it to me please.

cheers

ps sorry about the history lesson

[FPV_GTp]

HI

Have a look at this cnc machine , machining a alloy engine block , technology is amazing theses days

here is one film clip i found interesting. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34250

1. V8 Engine Block Machined From Solid.
2. file is 10.57 minutes long.
3. http://youtube.com/watch?v=QsmiIeAkE-o


cheers

[greg b]

jlcortes take a look at the little 250 dirt bike engines of todays standard they put out quite good horsepower for there size and only rev to 13000-14000rpm.The yamaha in particular have a nice little 5 valve per cylinder arrangement that may be worth looking at.Good luck with your project and i hope you get as close as possible to the target your chasing i to have a whole lot of projects i would like to start, one being a rotary shaft to do away with all that valve gear but for the time being it will have to go on the burner as im flat out doing everybody else"s projects.

[toneV8]

FPV_GTp: does it possible to machining a aluminium alloy engine block on mills like bridgeport with adding 4 and 5 axis, of course mill need to be accurate.

jlcortes: on what kaind machine did you machine first part

[FPV_GTp]

FPV_GTp: does it possible to machining a aluminium alloy engine block on mills like bridgeport with adding 4 and 5 axis, of course mill need to be accurate.

jlcortes: on what kaind machine did you machine first part

Hi toneV8 , i suppose anything is possible , would involve a lot of jig work as they have a palletting and clamping system on there 5-axis cnc milling machine.

A lot of work in converting a bridgeport , and still a lot of rotational movement of the work piece it self.

Have a look at this 18,000 rpm honda F1 engine on a dyno test cell wooooooooooo 800bhp plus , not you average family honda vehicle engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=014-J...elated&search=

F1 engine test http://youtube.com/watch?v=3R3F18MLw3Y

Renault F1 engine on dyno http://youtube.com/watch?v=o_QyUD6V5...elated&search=

Renault F1 Engine http://youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocY...elated&search=

F1 engine exhaust fire http://youtube.com/watch?v=pp6i-ckuT...elated&search=


F1 engines now days are revving between 18000 and 22000 rpm
would love to see this on a engine dynamometer

cheers

[FPV_GTp]

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4

http://www.delwestusa.com/manufactur...tic_valves.asp

http://scarbsf1.com/valves.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...a_one_rac.html

http://www.scarbsf1.com/

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...a_one_rac.html

[vishnu]

I agree to the point that all multi cylinder engines are complex in design and costly to manufacture because of the low volume of parts needed. But developing a single cylinder engine is always possible, just needs a bit technical skills and knowledge of practical engines. The most complex parts of the engine will be the crank and the valves which carry the maximum strain rather that the pistion and cylinder due to hign RPM and pressure. Hope we try to complete the engine on a trial and error basis and fine tune later than just planning about the complexity of the engine itself. Wish him all success. Nothing is impossible

[jlcortes]

hi greg b, yes, 250cc dirtbikes engines are really interesting, husqvarna has designed a radial valves engine for their 250! but my engine is very diferent to dirt bikes 250cc engines, this engines are long stroke and they are getting about 32-36hp at engine, it is really dificult to get more power.

YES vishnu, you are true!!!, it is only a single cylinder, not a complete F1 or moto GP engine. only a small part list have to be built, Same material and heat treatments than any other engine, only a diferent design.

a attach the pictures of my F1 piston:



jlcortex
http://www.sportdevices.com/jlcortex/

[FPV_GTp]

Hi jlcortes

I remembered this style of valve setup a while ago , maybe this might be of interest to you no camshafts , no valves , no valve springs just Coates spherical rotary valve http://www.coatesengine.com/

A very ingénues idea by Mr Coates

guys turning there every day IC V8 engines in the 14000 to 15000 rpm rev range and produce stacks of horsepower.

volumetric efficiency over 100% cylinder fill at a higher rev range than possible with a normal valve,camshaft,spring arrangement.

here is a forum guys are talking about the coates setup on a ford V8 351 cleveland. http://www.mustangforums.com/m_13223..._3/key_/tm.htm

cheers

[NC Cams]

Reply to FPP_GTp:

I do not intend for my posts to be optimistic or pessimistic - just realistic.

When comments about "electropneumatic" and/or "pneumatic" valvetrains are mentioned, the commentor is often mentioning it as a retort to something that they "saw someplace" as opposed to something that they have any real experience with.

In my case, I"ve had program management experience with electropneumatic vavletrains and they simply will NOT package in the space outlined in the member's original posting. Moreoever, the support hardware needed to make the stuff work is not at all that portable - unless you have an F1 budget and technological access.

The impression that I got was that the member is/was intending to build an engine with a TRADITIONAL valvetrain. In these bikes, they either use a bucket follower, direct acting tappet (relatively simple and easy to design and make stuff for, providing you use the RIGHT metallurgy for the parts).

The other option that is now gaining favor in these engines is to use finger followers. These are somewhat lighter and, more importantly, offfer much faster valve action due to to motion amplification due to rocker arm "ratio" multiplicaion. This sort of multiplication is simply NOT possible with bucket followers.

Example. A known state of the art 9500 rpm road race bucket follower in a hard core DOHC race engine has a max valve lift velocity of 0.0107" per deg of cam rotation. Yet, in our "archaic pushrod" 9700 rpm NASCAR truck engines, we we're regularly opening at velocities that are at or near 0.0155" per deg of cam rotation. Makes you wonder which engine is REALLY archaic???

Now, since we design cams professionally (and then make them as well), we can speak with some level of realism and authority when it comes to talking about what it takes to make high RPM valvetrains live/work.

Example: we had a guy in here one afternoon from Australia. He was visiting one of the race spring suppliers nearby (NOTE: most of all the race springs made in the USA are made by 1 of 2 spring makers in the Detroit area). Turned out he was a former F1 mechanic for one of the major F1 engine suppliers. He's since gone back to "down under" and is building V-8 super car engines.

He pointed out how difficult it was to do V-8 engines with springs. This seemed odd in view of the ungodly RPM of F!. His reply, "F! is a cinch in comparison to a pushrod V-8 with springs. Why? We simply turn up the force on the pneumatic's with our computers to get them to run at whatever RPM we want. Trying to control a springy steel spring with a mechanical cam is HARD!!!".

Anybody who can read a cam catalog can cut and try parts which is how a lot of "racing valvetrains" are built even today. However, when you literally ENGINEER a cam and spring to do what you want/need it to do, you'd be amazed at what can be done.

In our case, we took a client from a 0.760" lift off the shelf valvetrain that had a hard time runnin 300 miles and living to one that now lifts 0.800" plus and lives for 500+ miles WITHOUT breaking things.

That sort of performance takes REALISTIC engineering as opposed to optimistic and/or pessimistic SWAGGING and/or bravado.

Having already designed and built 12000 rpm cams for pro stock motorcycles, I know what it takes to make such stuff live/work. From this, I KNOW that the forces involved to turn and live at 16 to 20K will NOT be inconsequential.

The Solidworks programs will make make a good digital designs of/for the engnie. But converting that to hard metal that will live and work requires sophisticated equipment and materials and/or heat treat processes - technologies that are not going to be readilily found on the internet. These technologies are special and well protected, hence NOT given away.

I'd contend that DIY reworded stuff will probably prove to be more of a hinderance than a help should the member truly start to build the engine.

Whereas a DIY CNC can probably and readily cut heads, blocks and cranks, you may/will find that CNC cutting cams is NOT as easy to do unless you are darn good at geometry, physics and valve and cam dynamic analysis. If you don't have a cam grinder, you can rest assured that making a cam on a CNC mill won't be easy nor very productive or successful - we've already TRIED THAT using VERY good CNC's.

Simplly put, the F=MA parts of these components is NOT something you can short cut. I've spent the last several years trying to get around these very same limitations in order to simplify and stream line my business. RESULT: you can CNC SOME of the stuff needed to make the cam but, when it comes fo the finished product, NOTHING beats a good cam grinder, especially one that is being run by someone who KNOWS what they're doing.

Having had our cams win 12 of 16 restrictor plate races recently (including 3 Daytona 500 wins), I'd like to think that we know what we're doing when it comes to making cams and doing valvetrain engineering.

[Eson]

Basically you say that jlcortes is incompetent and this isnt possible so he should end the project. I think ive never seen you NC Cams cheer on others projects.

And i think you shouldnt use capital latters the way you do, i get very offended by it and i think others do too. Do you UNDERSTAND?

[FPV_GTp]

Hi NC cams

NC cams , what is the name of your camshaft shop ? and a website link please ??

I'm making a rash educated guess here now , jlcortes i'm would think will have access to excellent machinery and machinery workshops and expertise in Spain.

jlcortes i am not under estimating you machining skills nor do i know what level there at , sorry if offended you it was not my intention.

I'm going have to say not even the F1 racing teams manufacture everything in house. I would have to say they sub-contract work to other sources also.

jlcortes , will design and utilize sub-contract expertise machinist in Spain , USA is not the only place on this planet that makes camshafts.

jlcortes has a passion for motorcycle racing ( moto GP-1 ) and there is no reason why he couldn't manufacture his own single cylinder or multi cylinder engine for the sport.

jlcortes may have a open cheque book as far as we are concerned or might have access to large amount of financial backers.

NC cams , have you heard of this style of ( Coates spherical rotary valve ) valve setup ? no camshafts , no valves , no valve springs just Coates spherical rotary valve http://www.coatesengine.com/

NC cams just curious to hear your theory on Mr Coates principle of valve setup ? http://www.coatesengine.com/ ?

cheers

[jlcortes]

Hi guys,

i think you are misunderstanding the words of NC cams. i am sure he want to help (he has sent me some long private menssages).

in his first post he said about i can not develop an electropneumatic valvetrain (someone spoke about this) with a DIY budget, it is correct. i have never spoke about do it.

not dispute about this, everybody want to help and i am grateful with everybody.

electropneumatic valvetrain (without camshaft) are diferent than pneumatic spring with traditional camshaft.

I have not experience with finger followers, but i am thinking about use this followers. i think it is the best option if i want to use pneumatic spring.


More drawings.





Jlcortex
http://www.sportdevices.com/jlcortex/