[dhiruj]

HI guys

We do a lot of rough milling with high rate of material removal.. for example dia 32, tool 1mm depth of cut, 8000mm/min feed and 1800 rpm.

We are facing the problem of runout of the tool in the side lock type tool holders...

if I could get suggestions about the best possible way to hold the tool it would help me increase tool life.

As my operation is roughing hence accuracy is not exactly a issue.

Some one suggested me heat shrinking..

Suggestions will be most welcome

Dhiruj

[psychomill]

Shrinkers.... but it can vibrate out depending on your setup....

Mill Chucks... like Lyndex/Nikken Ultra locks for example...

You've got a lot of feed for the rpm there.... What are you running? A Feed Mill of some sort? Maybe give a liittle more info on your part and operation...

[dhiruj]

hi

well, i am using a SECO tools called feed master. We basically make magnetic beds for milling abd we are machining the steel housings.

you can visit www.sardamagnets.com for more info of our products....

the tools can go at higher feeds but my machine is restricting. I use a Verticle machining centre and the machining is dry NO coolent.

Dhiruj

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

There are collets available with an insert that extends into the flat in the Weldon type shank. They are "non-pullout" collets. Available from Kennametal (J&L INDUSTRIAL SUPPLY) They are probably made in India and sold here as an Erickson (also owned by Kennametal) product.

[tobyaxis]

High Feeds I'd go with Solid Tool Holders and End Mills with a Weldon Shank. ETM (AKA ISCAR) make some good ones for CAT40 and 50 Taper Machines at a reasonable price. T.I.R. depending on how good the Tool Shank, Spindle Taper, and Tool Holder should be around .00025 to .0005.

Seco Carboloy, Iscar, Kennametal, and Sandvik have a lot of Indexable Insert ToolHolders that really rip down material fast. TIR on those tools depending on the same conditions above should be around .0001-.0003 maximum.

The more Accurately a Tool is Held in the Spindle the Longer Tool Life you will get, granted....... Feeds, Speeds, Material, Machine Rigitity, and Set Up also play their roll in the art of Machining.

Cheers!!!!!!!

[ctate2000]

Schunk hydraulic holders, there is nothing better. Get out the wallet and sit down before looking at the price.

[cb1]

shrink fit is better yet.

[tobyaxis]

Schunk hydraulic holders, there is nothing better. Get out the wallet and sit down before looking at the price.

shrink fit is better yet.

I'm sure a lot of shops want these but unless your making tons of $$$$ who can afford them LOL

[dertsap]

if the tool has considerable runout in a sidelock either the tool or the holder is toast , in a roughing operation the best is a short beefy sidelock holder , the tool will be ridgid and can t push in or pull out , and will have the least chatter or vibration

shrinkfit is designed for precision ,and high speed
there is no true advantage to shink fit or balanced tool of the sort until the spindle is running 15000 rpm +
any tg or er type holder can easily hold a tool dead nuts provided the holder and the collets are in good shape , the thing most people tend to forget is the tool should always be dialed to check for runout , overtightening the holder can easily push the tool off center so sometimes loosening the tool and rotating it in the collet and retightening will do the trick

[tobyaxis]

if the tool has considerable runout in a sidelock either the tool or the holder is toast , in a roughing operation the best is a short beefy sidelock holder , the tool will be ridgid and can t push in or pull out , and will have the least chatter or vibration

shrinkfit is designed for precision ,and high speed
there is no true advantage to shink fit or balanced tool of the sort until the spindle is running 15000 rpm +
any tg or er type holder can easily hold a tool dead nuts provided the holder and the collets are in good shape , the thing most people tend to forget is the tool should always be dialed to check for runout , overtightening the holder can easily push the tool off center so sometimes loosening the tool and rotating it in the collet and retightening will do the trick

Thank You Dertsap, hit the nail on the head. I was waiting for you to show up. LOL I have little experience with High Speed Machining but have read a lot here. We needed an experienced authority to post on H.S.M.

I agree with your statement because it makes a lot of sense in the practicalities of Machining.

RICHARD ZASTROW that is also an excellent point about those collets.

From my experience I too go with Solid Tool Holders. Collets fail to hold as rigid as solid tool holders. Then again I like to cut Material, not Skim it.

Now where is Geof??????? He needed to post too.

Cheers!!!!!!

[Geof]

....Now where is Geof??????? He needed to post too.

Cheers!!!!!!

Geof only works with wimpy aluminum to +/- 0.005" as the tightest tolerance so he goes cheap and just uses a Jacobs Chuck. You learn to duck every now and then to avoid it when it comes off the taper.

[tobyaxis]

Geof only works with wimpy aluminum to +/- 0.005" as the tightest tolerance so he goes cheap and just uses a Jacobs Chuck. You learn to duck every now and then to avoid it when it comes off the taper.

WOW!!!!!! You must be in Good Shape LOL. The last time that happened to me a Grumpy Old Guy almost threw me out the door by my ear. At least that is what he looked like he wanted to do. Instead he showed me a better way to do things when in a pinch LOL.

I do know that Albrecht makes Diamond Fingered Drill Chucks to hold Carbide End Mills, but they are pretty pricy.

Cheers!!!!!!!

Now what is your real insight Geof?????????

[Geof]

....Now what is your real insight Geof?????????

I don't have any, I have been reading hoping to get some hints. The cutting conditions in the first post: "32, tool 1mm depth of cut, 8000mm/min feed and 1800 rpm." seemed a bit unreal to me. That is a tool advance of 0.175" per revolution on a 1-1/4" dia tool unless I have calculated wrong.

What dertsap said agrees with my experience. For decent cuts we use solid holders but commit the sin of grinding a small flat on the shank. We always use GAR carbide and they are just parallel shank. I have found the high helix cutters pull themselves out of ER Collet holders and will even pull out of rigid without the flat. I looked into the schunk holders and almost fainted!

What I want is a collet holder with a ridge around inside the collets and cutters with a corresponding groove. I reckon there is enough spring in the ER collets to have them about 0.015" high. This would stop pullout and should not affect either runout or balance.

[dertsap]

. We needed an experienced authority to post on H.S.M.


Cheers!!!!!!

i m no authority , just a nutjob who isn t scared to push an simple endmill till it breaks , then i back off 10% , time is money and you throw a few worn endmills or inserts into the equation of time saved , the dollars for time saved outway the burned tools cost = more profit + i love to see the chips fly
but once set properly though you d be surprised that when you hit that optimal point the tool life increases from what was concidered safe previously,

we had a run of parts recently that the programmer set spec. speeds and feeds , he sent down a 2 1/2 hr program ,i sent him back a 1 hr program,
yeeha !!!

i think 8000 mm must be one zero too many or it s really soft material

[tobyaxis]

i m no authority , just a nutjob who isn t scared to push an simple endmill till it breaks , then i back off 10% , time is money and you throw a few worn endmills or inserts into the equation of time saved , the dollars for time saved outway the burned tools cost = more profit + i love to see the chips fly
but once set properly though you d be surprised that when you hit that optimal point the tool life increases from what was concidered safe previously,

we had a run of parts recently that the programmer set spec. speeds and feeds , he sent down a 2 1/2 hr program ,i sent him back a 1 hr program,
yeeha !!!

i think 8000 mm must be one zero too many or it s really soft material

LOL Faster

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

I repeat #4 above.

[joecnc1234]

Why not increase your depth of cut and lower your feedrate. Everyone talks about high speed machining as moving the tool around real fast, how about high metal removal machining if you cut 1mm deep at 8000mm/min you could achieve the same cycle time with 2mm deep at 4000mm/min and have twice the tool life. or 4mm deep and 2000mm/min just use insertable carbide and an air blast.
Joe

[tobyaxis]

Why not increase your depth of cut and lower your feedrate. Everyone talks about high speed machining as moving the tool around real fast, how about high metal removal machining if you cut 1mm deep at 8000mm/min you could achieve the same cycle time with 2mm deep at 4000mm/min and have twice the tool life. or 4mm deep and 2000mm/min just use insertable carbide and an air blast.
Joe

Joe,

Application must be considered too. If your machining Thin Walled Parts your D.O.C is going to be Low as well as Feeds and Speeds. I'm talking about walls that are .05 Thick 4 to even 5 inches tall. HSM is the way to go with leaving .05 on the walls for Finishing in steps with the final spring pass of .005 on the side or less.

I have a part on my desk that has .025 walls that are 1.0 inches in height Side by Side at .3 by .3. This was done at EastTech 4 years ago. A friend went because I couldn't go. This part was done with a 1/8 Dia. End Mill 4 Flute Carbide at 60,000 RPM and 120 IPM in .125 DOC. The Surface Finish is like a Mirror and the Precision Down Right Scary .0005. FAST!!!!! Cycle Time .75 Minutes I think, can't remember.

Speed and Precision is the New Game in Machining. We have to stay Competitive with Over Seas Markets.

[dertsap]

with a greater depth of cut the speed and feed are both lower , depth of cut ,work engagement , and proper tooling has the most affect on the efficiency of a cutter ,also greatly affects the the amount of pressure on the tool which can lead to tool failure ,
i worked at a company making our own product , we changed everything over to high speed high performance, the tool cost decresed while the production rate was doubled if not tripled in many cases , it s all money in the pocket ! in 3 yrs we never lost an insert mill and we put out a serious amount of product , what brought it all on was we were looking at farming out parts because we couldn t keep up ,end result was we did it all and had time to relax

the job i was refering to in my previous post is a sleugh of parts that we got in that are 75% stitch milled with various sized ballnose cutters which aren t designed to be hogging material , most of the excess had been removed with insert mills ,
as far as material removal rate goes ,knocking 1.5 hrs off a normally 2.5 hr cycle is an increased material removal and at $85/hr on several orders of 50 parts adds up
bottom line is if a guy knows what he is doing then it comes easy as far as bumping up production , if a guy doesn t know then there are a lot of broken or prematurely worn tools , or parts flying through the machine window
there is good reason why good rigid machines are being manufactured with high rpm spindles , it s not only for aluminum or plastic anymore especially with the quality of tooling hitting the market these days

[joecnc1234]

I want to see an 1/8" em hanging out 1" cutting 1/8 deep per pass at 120ipm and leaving a 32 finish while cutting I'm assuming full cutter dia. sounds a little like a trade show. All I was saying is use what you got if you only have 4000 rpm and no coolant use an air blast and more doc. I've seen so many yahoo machine salesmen tell me about hsm. If you want to spend the money needed for anything over 15000 rpm (+tooling) go for it. as far as dertsap says " with a greater depth of cut the speed and feed are both lower , depth of cut ,work engagement , and proper tooling has the most affect on the efficiency of a cutter ,also greatly affects the the amount of pressure on the tool which can lead to tool failure" This is total BS, speeds and feeds are a set standard. Depth of cut is Dependant on horsepower and rigidity of your set-up if you have the hp and rigidity you can either a) wear out the first .05" or your tool than replace it or b) wear out the first .500 or you tool and replace it, how many more parts are you going to get from b than a???? Talk about cost reduction and production increase how much time does it take for your operator to change out tools, oh no its your set-up guy changing out tools leaving his set-up to help out an operator. This is a subject that I personally have very much experience on and passion about so if you have anything to throw at me bring it.
Joe