[mactec54]

There is only one reason to buy a more powerful VFD than the motor, that is to give you the possibility to change the motor to a more powerful one if you feel you need it at a later stage. That is assuming your VFD fulfils it's specifications. It has nothing to do with single phase or three phase mains

Again you talk with no experience but the one VFD install, you have done, it is a given in the industry that a VFD Drive that runs on Single Phase supplying a 3 Phase output need to have a derating, hence the larger VFD requirement, do some web searching you will find it everywhere, most VFD manufactures offer this information below

Single phase operation requires a derating factor of about 1.73 (square root of 3) because the INPUT current requirement goes up by not providing 3 phase power. If you are trying to operate a 5 hp motor and have single phase power, a 7.5 hp VFD drive would work marginally (1.5 times), a 10 hp VFD drive (2 times) would be preferred..

[ger21]

So, if it is easy to hook the VFD up to a BOB outside of the modbus communication link, then why do it?

I think mainly because it's just easier, but I've listed a few reasons below.

1) $10 breakout boards with analog speed control are a fairly recent phenomenon. A few years ago, you'd need to add a $40-$70 speed control board to the $100 breakout board you already had to use analog speed control.

2) I don't think very many people actually use straight modbus to control their spindles. Most people use the Mach3 plugins I mentioned earlier. These are much easier to configure than modbus, and require only a cheap and simple RS-485 adapter.

3) In some cases, Modbus just works better.
When I got my Huanyang VFD, I immediately wired it up for analog control from my breakout board. While it controlled the speed, I was seeing the RPM fluctuate by ±1000rpm. I found a few others that saw the same result with the Huanyang VFD. It seems to be noise causing the issue. I was able to get it a bit more stable by adding some capacitors, but still not perfect.
So I bought a $8 RS-485 adapter, switched to a Huanyang plugin, and now get perfect RPM control.

[Al_The_Man]

That's odd.:tired:
The Mitsubishi Inverters and CNC systems I use come out of the Nagoya Works factory .
MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC News Releases Mitsubishi Electric to Build New Production Facility for Factory Automation Equipment at Nagoya Works
They VFD's have 5yr warranty, and come with a 200 page manual.!!
I have access to a (highly) technical support team a phone call away, both in Chicago and Canada.

[mactec54]

That's odd.:tired:
The Mitsubishi Inverters and CNC systems I use come out of the Nagoya Works factory .
MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC News Releases Mitsubishi Electric to Build New Production Facility for Factory Automation Equipment at Nagoya Works
They VFD's have 5yr warranty, and come with a 200 page manual.!!
I have access to a (highly) technical support team a phone call away, both in Chicago and Canada.

That's what you pay for, Technical support and service, not many Hobby builder are going to look twice at the expensive VFD Drives, I have around 45 in stock that start at $600 to $3,200, sold 4 last month @ $2,850-00 each

All the major brand names have Great Technical support, in most countries, not just the USA and Canada, it does not matter where they are manufactured, it's how the companies quality and structure is setup, that's all that counts, all of these companies have manufacturing in many different country's, who would of though BMW small car engines would be made in China, along with hundreds of other BMW parts

You can get this Mitsubishi VFD below for $143 us manufactured in Shanghai this factory can manufacture 30,000 units per year, this does not look like the current units, but is a 380v model

[Al_The_Man]

My main objection is being accused of being miss-informed,
Also I can buy Telemecanique Push Buttons and switches from China marked as the originals at one tenth the price.
But they are not affiliated with Telemecanique or Group Shnieder.
According to the blurb, the VFD is made by Ideei?
I will contact Mitsubishi and see what they say.

[mactec54]

[QUOTE=Al_The_Man;2153366]That is a wide and sweeping statement that doesn't hold up or make sense.[QUOTE]

I responded to what you posted

[QUOTE=Al_The_Man;2153366]My main objection is being accused of being miss-informed,:confused [QUOTE]

The point is these manufactures are in China, making what ever they can work for them, it's something everyone has to get used to when you are going to buy something, they can and do make some very good products, and those that are not so good strive to get better, they are all looking for the same thing market share

[ger21]

The question is, assuming you received a working unit (and you know how to use it) what actual performance benefit would one notice (if any) between a spindle driven by a $200 HY VFD and the same spindle driven by a $1500 Yaskawa?

I think it depends a lot on the specific motor you are using.

[Goemon]

I think it depends a lot on the specific motor you are using.

Do you mean that you would be more likely to see benefits of a quality VFD if you have invested in a high end spindle? Or do you mean that the VFD effects performance more with certain types of spindle? E.g. The vector drives being of more benefit to low speed / high torque milling heads than high speed router spindles.

[ChuckC]

I can really relate to Goemon's position- I am, whether unfortunate or not used to the method of on-line research to figure out my product issues and have had to learn how to discern between online posters as best I can. It's an unfortunate development of American society in some retail. So, I'm left with trying to gamble on quality versus price, looking for which model has the most viable/use-able on line info. from users having gone before.

The big names have the advantage of accurate documentation and usually better QC, as they worry more about reputation, no matter country of origin.

So what VFD's are out there, new that are less than, let's say $300 that can handle a 1.5kw spindle with a comfortable safety margin? I get HY-keeping in mind I'm going to be doing only simple on-off, speed control (that I know of), cutting wood and maybe 6061, T-6 aluminum.

Thanks for the banter, guys. It does help.

BTW, this isn't the only industry that's switching to mostly on-line, community support (I guess that's really old news). The drag is, it takes a whole ton of work on the consumer side to figure out electronic set up and it's not constrained to Chinese products. I've got a wonderful, Czech. RC radio that cost a bit over $1500, but the manual is only basic and doesn't touch 1/10th the programming capabilities that are about required to fly very complicated high end RC jets (one of my other hobbies). Therefore, I've spent some 100+ hours on line scratching through what should have been about a 20 hour straight forward study session. It's just how it is. I am wonderfully amazed by that manufacturer, with-brilliant engineers (Jeti).

So, knowing the above, where should we be for less than $300? Gotta be single phase, prefer 220v and probably around 2.2 kw capacity driving somewhere around 1.5 kw spindle. That's with future speed and work space in mind. If I could get a smoking deal (read high, name brand) on a smaller (sub 1 kw) spindle and VFD, then I'm open to to purchasing twice. My Isel only has a 12"x12"x3" functional work space inside the soft limits. Smaller may be more appropriate. Running very high quality ball screws and decent steppers, though I have upgrades standing by, should that be needed.

[mactec54]

I can really relate to Goemon's position- I am, whether unfortunate or not used to the method of on-line research to figure out my product issues and have had to learn how to discern between online posters as best I can. It's an unfortunate development of American society in some retail. So, I'm left with trying to gamble on quality versus price, looking for which model has the most viable/use-able on line info. from users having gone before.

The big names have the advantage of accurate documentation and usually better QC, as they worry more about reputation, no matter country of origin.

So what VFD's are out there, new that are less than, let's say $300 that can handle a 1.5kw spindle with a comfortable safety margin? I get HY-keeping in mind I'm going to be doing only simple on-off, speed control (that I know of), cutting wood and maybe 6061, T-6 aluminum.

Thanks for the banter, guys. It does help.

BTW, this isn't the only industry that's switching to mostly on-line, community support (I guess that's really old news). The drag is, it takes a whole ton of work on the consumer side to figure out electronic set up and it's not constrained to Chinese products. I've got a wonderful, Czech. RC radio that cost a bit over $1500, but the manual is only basic and doesn't touch 1/10th the programming capabilities that are about required to fly very complicated high end RC jets (one of my other hobbies). Therefore, I've spent some 100+ hours on line scratching through what should have been about a 20 hour straight forward study session. It's just how it is. I am wonderfully amazed by that manufacturer, with-brilliant engineers (Jeti).

So, knowing the above, where should we be for less than $300? Gotta be single phase, prefer 220v and probably around 2.2 kw capacity driving somewhere around 1.5 kw spindle. That's with future speed and work space in mind. If I could get a smoking deal (read high, name brand) on a smaller (sub 1 kw) spindle and VFD, then I'm open to to purchasing twice. My Isel only has a 12"x12"x3" functional work space inside the soft limits. Smaller may be more appropriate. Running very high quality ball screws and decent steppers, though I have upgrades standing by, should that be needed.

There is an 800w spindle, with a 1Kw VFD, gives you lots of options, if you wanted smaller, won't be as good as a 1.5Kw ( although you can cut aluminum with a Dremel, will just depend what you want to achieve ) considering your machine size, the 1.5Kw if you can fit it Ok, would be transferable if you where to build a bigger machine at anytime

[dregalia]

There is an 800w spindle, with a 1Kw VFD, gives you lots of options, if you wanted smaller, won't be as good as a 1.5Kw ( although you can cut aluminum with a Dremel, will just depend what you want to achieve ) considering your machine size, the 1.5Kw if you can fit it Ok, would be transferable if you where to build a bigger machine at anytime

This is basically the setup I'm looking for. I don't plan on upgrading beyond this.. cutting hard woods and soft aluminum. I just want it to have very little runoff and be in the 200 dollar range for motor/vfd, and if at all possible, be water cooled, for quiet cuts and of course, it has to eat 110v SF. Do you have a link for it somewhere?

[Al_The_Man]

I can really relate to Goemon's position-n. It's an unfortunate development of American society in some retail. So, I'm left with trying to gamble on quality versus price, looking for which model has the most viable/use-able on line info. from users having gone before.

The big names have the advantage of accurate documentation and usually better QC, as they worry more about reputation, no matter country of origin.
.

The thing to remember here is that although the subject is the same or similar, the designated market is completely different for CNC and control related products.
There is the Industrial Production world and the DIY area.
Those such as Mitsubishi and Fanuc are aiming for the world dominance and acceptance of their CNC/Industrial systems and thier potential customers want highly technical support with training options and comprehensive manuals etc.
For example, Mitsubishi has offices in just about every country, with tech support via email or phone, this all cost money.
These companies are not aiming thier products at the DIY world.
Whether it is worth paying a premium price or not it for a DIY,er is usually just a simple question of economics.
My personnal opinion after testing and/or reviewing the lower-end versions, I would tend to opt for Hitachi.
I have had good response from thier Technical dept when needed.
.
Al.

[ger21]

So, knowing the above, where should we be for less than $300?

Automation Direct GS1 and GS2, which I believe are actually Delta drives.

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._VAC)/GS1-22P0

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._VAC)/GS2-22P0


Hitachi

https://www.driveswarehouse.com/NES1-015SB-P21653.aspx

https://www.driveswarehouse.com/WJ200-015LF-P21542.aspx

[ChuckC]

So what search terms do you use to find these? Or, how'd you search? Seems I'm missing some info. to get to this point.

Again, much appreciated!

[Al_The_Man]

So what search terms do you use to find these?

Are you referring to Hitachi? If so a simple Google brings up many links?
Al.

[ger21]

So what search terms do you use to find these? Or, how'd you search? Seems I'm missing some info. to get to this point.

Again, much appreciated!

I didn't search. I just posted what everybody here uses. At least those in the US.

[ericks]

I have to agree with everything that A-Camera said. Most failures on drives are related to improper input power protection and improper installation/ventilation.
As long as you stick to the manufacturers instruction you should not have any issues.
I have seen/experienced ABB, Siemens, Yaskawa, Weg, Danfoss etc fail due to improper installation or protection.

That said....any electronic component inside the drive can fail. However from my experience cheap electronic devices from China usually fail in similar ways. This is due to improper design. I fix electronic cards and have found this often.

[ChuckC]

Now we're talking! Name brand, going to be in Dallas in a few weeks anyway and it's a name brand. Actually, I'd/am going to spring for a little larger for $245 and get the 2.2 kw rated one.

Thanks-that's actually exactly where I wanted to be. Funny thing-I think we use those (Hitachi) to control some fan motors at work...

Perfect. Now, spindles...

[ChuckC]

Yeah - for me, not as direct - lots and lots of spam advertising on top of anything meaningful for the search.

But - we're there - thanks again guys - will do my best to pay it forward.

Chuck

[ger21]

Just a guess, but probably the latter. I don't think a better VFD will make much difference at all on a $200 2.2Kw spindle.