[keen]

Hi Guys

I thought a thread on small shop production machining tips and tricks would be useful to many of us.

I am keen to learn all I can on the subject, so please post any new ideas you have come across.

I will start the ball rolling with this video:

Cheers Keen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYYcLufog54

[Dozer56]

Great tips and video. Thanks for posting it

[keen]

Great tips and video. Thanks for posting it

Thanks Dozer -

I am looking forward to learning too - anyone using regularly and got thoughts on the Tormach toolchanger...re how reliable is it?

I am torn between doing that...but worry about reliability... and think maybe I should get a Haas Mini mill if I need a toolchanger...because a Tormach is no longer that cheap....with power draw bar and toolchanger....your thoughts?

Cheers Keen

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If you're serious about production, and can afford it, the reason to go with a Haas or another commercial machine is productivity, not cost. A Haas will run circles around a Tormach in terms of work output. You'd easily be able to a 3-10X the work in a given amount of time, due to the much greater speed, rigidity, power and larger work envelope. But, of course, you'll pay a LOT more for parts and service, and will need 3-phase power.

Regards,
Ray L.

[keen]

If you're serious about production, and can afford it, the reason to go with a Haas or another commercial machine is productivity, not cost. A Haas will run circles around a Tormach in terms of work output. You'd easily be able to a 3-10X the work in a given amount of time, due to the much greater speed, rigidity, power and larger work envelope. But, of course, you'll pay a LOT more for parts and service, and will need 3-phase power.

Regards,
Ray L.

Hi Ray.

On thing that is not often discussed, I would like to hear your thoughts on...is that lets say a part cycle time is 10 min in a Tormach and 2 min in a VMC.

But I repeatedly find that in a one man shop... you can get on with other work during that 10 min. So does it really matter if the run takes 20 hours instead of 4?

I know this varies for job to job, and depends on the run quantity, but often I find I am doing two jobs at once, and if my cycle time was 5 times faster, there would not be time to get underway on the other job between loading/unloading.

I would love a VMC...but I am not sure when this aspect is considered it is economically justifiable.

I welcome your thoughts guys. Keen

[GLCarlson]

misposted, ignore

[eltejano]

Great video, especially the work offsets. I am new to CNCing, Been only doing it for about 4 months at Techshop Austin. People posting information like this is so helpful to beginners like me. Thank you.

[Uman]

This is a very timely subject, as I am transitioning to production mode. I have been doing prototype one-ups for a year now and our product just passed beta testing. It is time to shift gears and go full production on the Tormach. Now instead of cutting one part at a time, multiple parts are cut from a single work piece or from a fixture with multiple holddowns. This is new to me and I appreciate your video; thank you.

[Steve Seebold]

If you're serious about production, and can afford it, the reason to go with a Haas or another commercial machine is productivity, not cost. A Haas will run circles around a Tormach in terms of work output. You'd easily be able to a 3-10X the work in a given amount of time, due to the much greater speed, rigidity, power and larger work envelope. But, of course, you'll pay a LOT more for parts and service, and will need 3-phase power.

Regards,
Ray L.

You're almost right about the Haas mills needing 3 phase power Ray.

The Haas mini mills and the toolroom mills will run on single phase power.

I had a TM1 in my shop and if I had known then what I know now, I would have taken some of the money I got when I sold my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

I had the Haas TM1. It had travels of 30 X 12 X 16 XYZ respectively. Rapids of 200 IPM, but only a 4,000 RPM spindle.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Tormach, but the Haas was a WAY better machine.

Mine was equipped with rigid tapping, 10 station tool changer and a 5C 4th axis.

I bought my Haas new on 2004 and I paid a little over $35,000.00 for it and my Tormach with all the extras I bought was less than $20,000.00.

The only thing I done have on my Tormach is the ATC. That's because it wasn't available yet when I bought my machine.

[coffeetek]

I had a TM1 in my shop and if I had known then what I know now, I would have taken some of the money I got when I sold my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

I really would love to have HAAS Compact Mill in my garage :-)

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Hi Ray.

On thing that is not often discussed, I would like to hear your thoughts on...is that lets say a part cycle time is 10 min in a Tormach and 2 min in a VMC.

But I repeatedly find that in a one man shop... you can get on with other work during that 10 min. So does it really matter if the run takes 20 hours instead of 4?

I know this varies for job to job, and depends on the run quantity, but often I find I am doing two jobs at once, and if my cycle time was 5 times faster, there would not be time to get underway on the other job between loading/unloading.

I would love a VMC...but I am not sure when this aspect is considered it is economically justifiable.

I welcome your thoughts guys. Keen

Only you can answer that question. If your volumes are low, then machining time may well not be important. When I'm doing production runs of my products, I'm not terribly concerned about run times, because I build in small quantities (typically on the order of 25 sets of parts for a given product). I setup the fixturing to do enough parts that each program can run for an hour or two, giving me plenty of time to do other work. Where a faster machine would be useful for me is when I'm either doing one-offs, or the handful of parts that require frequent attention (turning them over to machine another side, or just very quick parts where new stock is loaded frequently, etc. If you're doing high volume to a schedule, speed is very important.

Another option is two or more slow, inexpensive machines, vs one fast, expensive machine. A single operator can keep several machines running full-time, with time to spare.

So, what does it take to get YOUR parts done?

Regards,
Ray L.

[C*H*U*D]

Great thread topic and I always enjoy your videos.

I do have one comment about copying and pasting your code to get your G54 and G55. This works if both vises are set up to do the same job, but many times I machine parts that require more than one setup to finish. If your goal is to reduce tool changes, a copy and paste will not work but you can set this up in CAM. I like to run my machine so that every time I load new stock, I'm taking a finished part off, so in CAM I set my post processor to re-order my operations to reduce tool changes.

[CadRhino]

Good point. What cam do you use and do you have more info on how to do this? I have never done a multiple offset and I am in sprutcam 10
Thanks!

Great thread topic and I always enjoy your videos.

I do have one comment about copying and pasting your code to get your G54 and G55. This works if both vises are set up to do the same job, but many times I machine parts that require more than one setup to finish. If your goal is to reduce tool changes, a copy and paste will not work but you can set this up in CAM. I like to run my machine so that every time I load new stock, I'm taking a finished part off, so in CAM I set my post processor to re-order my operations to reduce tool changes.

[CadRhino]

Keen thanks for that great video. I too run a one person shop with a tormach.

I have the the atc. It was a very dreadful experience trying to have it work reliably but since switching to path pilot last year I gave not had these issues anymore (knock on wood). I love the atc and it saves me much time.
Since I can load up the ops this allows me more time to work in other machines while the tormach slowly dies it's work.

Hass' are not the big boys and you probably won't be able to service them yourself. Look how much more the pendant and atc costs. Don't get me wrong, I want to upgrade done day but I am so glad my Tormach dies what I need it to. I also love the support and ability to work on it myself.

The real question is if you need a machine with higher tolerances and repeatability. I take it that your tormach have been adequate so far.

Thanks Dozer -

I am looking forward to learning too - anyone using regularly and got thoughts on the Tormach toolchanger...re how reliable is it?

I am torn between doing that...but worry about reliability... and think maybe I should get a Haas Mini mill if I need a toolchanger...because a Tormach is no longer that cheap....with power draw bar and toolchanger....your thoughts?

Cheers Keen

[keen]

Keen thanks for that great video. I too run a one person shop with a tormach.

I have the the atc. It was a very dreadful experience trying to have it work reliably but since switching to path pilot last year I gave not had these issues anymore (knock on wood). I love the atc and it saves me much time.
Since I can load up the ops this allows me more time to work in other machines while the tormach slowly dies it's work.

Hass' are not the big boys and you probably won't be able to service them yourself. Look how much more the pendant and atc costs. Don't get me wrong, I want to upgrade done day but I am so glad my Tormach dies what I need it to. I also love the support and ability to work on it myself.

The real question is if you need a machine with higher tolerances and repeatability. I take it that your tormach have been adequate so far.

Thanks for that - good to hear ATC is reliable with PP - anyone else second that?

Cheers Keen

[Steve Seebold]

Thanks for that - good to hear ATC is reliable with PP - anyone else second that?

Cheers Keen

Only negative I've heard about the ATC is it's very slow.

I've watched some of the newer Haas machines change tools. They will do it as fast as 1.8 seconds chip to chip.

[Steve Seebold]

Thanks for that - good to hear ATC is reliable with PP - anyone else second that?

Cheers Keen

Only negative I've heard about the ATC is it's very slow.

I've watched some of the newer Haas machines change tools. They will do it as fast as 1.8 seconds chip to chip.

[keen]

Only negative I've heard about the ATC is it's very slow.

I've watched some of the newer Haas machines change tools. They will do it as fast as 1.8 seconds chip to chip.

Thanks - for me that is not a biggie. Does anyone know approx how many Tormach ATC have been sold and how many are in regular use?

Keen

[nitewatchman]

I have been using the ATC for 3-4 years and wouldn't do without. In one case alone we run a ductile iron casting that requires 10 tools and 12 tool changes, the 1100 has done 6000+ parts so the math is easy. There are several other parts in addition that have between 2 and 6 tool changes.

I have a few fingers that are showing wear and some of the Nylon grips that are showing white strain material in the flex areas but it still works well. I have to realign every year or so.

The ATC will on occasion break or strip the two nylon bolts holding the fingers in place but I also run the PDB pretty tight causing some drag as the tool is loaded. I get the screws from McMaster-Carr and changing them takes less than a couple of minutes.

The air is throttled on my ATC to lessen the end of stroke impacts on the extend/retract cylinder giving a tool change time on about 10-12 seconds.

As to using with Mach 3 or PP, I haven't noticed a difference.

gary

[keen]

I have been using the ATC for 3-4 years and wouldn't do without. In one case alone we run a ductile iron casting that requires 10 tools and 12 tool changes, the 1100 has done 6000+ parts so the math is easy. There are several other parts in addition that have between 2 and 6 tool changes.

I have a few fingers that are showing wear and some of the Nylon grips that are showing white strain material in the flex areas but it still works well. I have to realign every year or so.

The ATC will on occasion break or strip the two nylon bolts holding the fingers in place but I also run the PDB pretty tight causing some drag as the tool is loaded. I get the screws from McMaster-Carr and changing them takes less than a couple of minutes.

The air is throttled on my ATC to lessen the end of stroke impacts on the extend/retract cylinder giving a tool change time on about 10-12 seconds.

As to using with Mach 3 or PP, I haven't noticed a difference.

gary

Thanks Gary. That is great news. Two positives, OK I think I have a medium term default plan now. Cheers. Keen