[jon_fallon]

Several years ago, an intermittent 'SCALE ERROR' would appear on the screen in lieu of the 'Enter CS' message. If the machine were turned off, and then turned on again, it would power on correctly. For the past year it has powered on normally without the scale error message.

However today, the 'SCALE ERROR' message continually displays when the machine is powered up. This machine has resolvers, not scales, and could not find any useful information in the documentation. All cards, memory and relays were pulled and reseated, yet the message persists.

Any ideas on what is causing this message?

Thanks in advance.

Jon

[rodney247]

Does your machine have one of those Brown Renishaw Probe interface boxes mounted usually on the top of the Side Cabinet? Full enclosed sheetmetal or original blue low enclosers?

[jon_fallon]

There is nothing on top of the card cabinet, but is a rectangular box on top of the inverter / power cabinet with two wires running into it. There was no probe on the machine when it was purchased, and I am the 2nd owner.

The full message on startup is:
-----------------------
Emergency Stop - Take Appropriate Action
Scale Error
Enter Next Command
----------------------

Hitting the JOG key will attempt to reset whichever axis is current on the axis select knob, but will not reset the axis or clear the stop.

The only thing different from the last time the machine was operated is the temperature in the shop. Normally its ~75F, but was nearly 85F today.

[rodney247]

Have you checked your 5 and 12 volts the 5 volts should be 5.05 with a multimeter. if those are low the control can do weird things

[jon_fallon]

Went out first thing this morning and it came up with no problems. Voltage readings were +12.15V, -12.17V & +5.06V.

Mid-afternoon it was started again with the following messages:
--------------------
Emergency Stop - Take Appropriate Action
Check Emergency Stop Switch And Motor Overload Relays
Scale Error
Enter Next Command
---------------------
Voltages were +12.15V, -12.17V & 5.06V. On the 5V readings, it periodically dropped to 4.9V, but it could have been the probe was on a corroded area. After repeated measurements, it remained at 5.06V.

The second line of the error message was new. After turning it off, and then on again, the second line above was not displayed.

Any thoughts?

[rodney247]

I'm starting to think its one of your 1010 axis cards.

do you have another Fadal that you can swap out the 1010's and see if the error goes away

[rodney247]

what dash number are your 1010 cards. and when you took the cards out and reseated them, did you try the give the cards a little twist ( i know it sounds a bit weird but when the cards start getting aged and depending on how many sockets are on the board it can reseat the sockets on the board) it was a fix on the original VMC-45's. I'm only saying this cause you were saying you would very intermittently and now its constant just that very very small amount of carbon needs to be broke loose and the old cards originally were almost all socketed. I know because i used to do all the soldering. Before they got their Flow soldering Machine.

Oh and when was the last time you changed the Purple Battery on the Main CPU. Probably not the problem cause you would see errors like memory corrupt Zero memory. or Lost Parameters

[rodney247]

oh Last thing my brother is the Fadal Control guru when i see him next tuesday im gonna ask him about this error.

[jon_fallon]

Yes, I have a 1991 6030 sitting right next to it.

I'll turn the 4020 on again first thing in the morning and measure both the DC circuit board and AC line voltage, and then do the same thing again when it is hotter. Perhaps the AC is dropping during the afternoon and causing the servo board to trip as it gets its voltage from a transformer and bridge rectifier. I'll measure those as well.

If all voltages are the same, then I'll start swapping the boards.

[rodney247]

Thats good you can put all those 6030 boards right into the 4020 see if the problem goes away. Just dont over travel your 4020. The 5.05 volts is probably the most critical of the voltages and the 5 and 12 volt power supplies eventual go bad just old age.

[rodney247]

personally i would swap all the boards just to see if the problem goes away, and then go from there.

[jon_fallon]

The 1010 cards are all 1010-1. For all three cards, jumper J4, and eproms U19 & U26 were removed and reseated. The U19 eproms were all a V87.3H, and the U26 a V89.3. All the remaining cards were removed and reseated again, and if there were any removable components on the card, they were removed and reseated as well. All the circuit board relays and connectors in the side cabinet were removed and reseated, as well as the ones in the power cabinet. Voltages were remeasured and read 5.05V, 12.15V & -12.17V. The 5.05 reading was lower than the previous reading, although it flickered once to 5.06V. Also the AC line voltage was 199.7VAC.

None of the cards removed had any burnt components on them, and the solders all looked clean. The battery was replace approximately 2 years ago, but have not lost any parameter settings recently, so it is probably still good.

In the 6030, the cards were all the 1010-4's, and are different than the 1010-1's. I was hesitant to change them out as 6030 has a full schedule next week and cannot afford the downtime should anything go wrong. With the difference in the card numbers, can they be safely swapped?

Thanks,

Jon

[jon_fallon]

Started the 4020 up with the same SCALE error.

1. Removed the 1010 x-axis card from the back plane and restarted with the following error message:
Emergency Stop - Take Appropriate Action
Scale Error
X Axis Fault(s) As Follows:
Axis Controller Does Not Respond To NC
Enter Next Command

2. Reinserted the 1010 x-axis card, and removed the 1010 y-axis card from the back plane. Startup messages were:
Emergency Stop - Take Appropriate Action
Scale Error
Y Axis Fault(s) As Follows:
Axis Controller Does Not Respond To NC
Enter Next Command

3. Reinserted the 1010 y-axis card, and removed the 1010 z-axis card from the back plane. Startup messages were:
Axis Data Transfer Is Stalled
Jog Axes To Home Position, Then Enter CS Command
Emergency Stop - Take Appropriate Action
Scale Error
Z Axis Fault(s) As Follows:
Axis Controller Does Not Respond To NC
Enter Next Command

4. Reinserted the 1010 z-axis card. Since the card cabinet is within 10 foot of a window air conditioner, the AC output vents were directed into the card cabinet. After ~1 hour, the 4020 was restarted and came up with no error messages.

With the difference in error messages, the culprit appears to be the 1010 z-axis card. However, all removable components on that card were reseated, and an inspection of the solder joints didn't reveal any cracked spots. It was also twisted prior to being reinserted.

Any thoughts on what else to look for on this card, or any diagnostic checks that could be made?

Thanks,

Jon

[rodney247]

Hey Jon I am 99.9 percent sure (that was a huge Plus with Fadals to be able to upgrade the control as the years went on) you can take the entire set of cards from the 6030 and insert them into the 4020 just to isolate the problem to the cards or a card. i am going to ask Glenn when i see him it the long weekend here in Cali 4th of July weekend . But before pulling your cards i would Tag everyone with the corresponding slot number so you don't get them mixed up or inserted into the wrong slot.

Now you mentioned or seemed that way that the cabinet was cooled by the air conditioner and it came up with NO errors. Thats actually very much a possibility if that side cabinet is getting hot inside to cause problems. Are the fans working and the screens clean. Im not a big fan of leaving the side cabinet open, But people do it as long as the air is clean. I know my dad on very hot days has the cabinet open with a fan blowing in on the cards. especially if they disconnect the radiator pump.

But lastly i am gonna run by Glenn the Scale error message and he can tell me where it is coming from. i will have him read your post.

[jon_fallon]

Rodney,

This last round of error messages have been displayed when the card cabinet is the same temperature as the ambient - ~80F. When cool air was blown on the cards this morning, the message disappeared. Earlier last week, it powered on first thing in the morning when the shop temperature was cooler, but then displayed the SCALE error later that afternoon when the shop warmed up. Things are pointing to a thermal expansion issue on the 1010-1 Z axis given the error message this morning. Most all the electrical failures I've had are corrosion on the contacts, but this one seems to be either a chip or perhaps a minute crack in a solder joint.

Do you know if Fadal ever posted the source code for the power on sequence. Knowing what signals would generate a specific error message and in what order would be extremely beneficial.

Looking forward to what your friend has to say. These intermittent errors are always difficult to isolate.


Jon

[rodney247]

Well talked to glenn and how the machine gets Scale Error message (Whether you Have Scales Or not) is off the pins on I6 on J13 plug that is the Far right Bottom of the Mother Board right side of the card Cage. So if there is anything plugged in there make sure the Plug is plugged in to the correct pins it could be attached one row off. I believe also if there is anything causing a jump there either on the front or behind could cause the signal.

It could also be the Mill interface Card causing the error, the 1040 card that is in slot #17. So the Error can only come from a bad 1040 or something is shorting on I6 (input 6). It has absolutely nothing to do with the axis card.

Take the 1040 card from the 6030 if there is not short on that I6 (input 6) on the far right bottom on the mother board.

[jon_fallon]

There is no plug on J13, and examination of the rear of the board behind J13 revealed that nothing was shorting across any of the pins.

The 1040 card is the same between the 4020 & 6030. The 6030 card was placed in the 4020, but still displayed the SCALE error message.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Jon

[rodney247]

The order of things are Mother board to the 1040 card and the 1030 card reads the 1040 and displays the message. Very unlikely for the 1030 card to be bad if it was bad you would have all kinds of trouble.

the signal that the 1040 is getting is a very simple open closed type. So changing the 1040 with your 6030 board and same message kind points to the Motherboard possible alignment with the contacts on the slot, was thinking the card cage is out of alignment with the slot on the MB. Card might be going in at a slight angle (misaligned)

Can you post some photos of the Card cage and also a photo of the error message on the screen?

[rodney247]

Jon,

Go here and Download for free all the Fadal Manuals you need Parts, Technical, troublshooting, operations, Assembly etc

Flint Machine Tools, Inc.

[jon_fallon]

Powered on this morning and received the SCALE message. Shut it down, directed the air conditioner to the card cage for 15 minutes, and then powered up OK. Ran it all day, shut it off, and then powered it up again while the card cabinet and shop ambient temperatures were warm - and it powered up OK.

Attached is a picture of the card cage. All of the slots line up and have never had any trouble removing or reinserting a card.

Next time the SCALE message appears, will shut it down, then loosen and tighten all the wires terminating on the PC boards in the cabinet. Perhaps one of them is slightly corroded.