[resilient]

I am looking into both... I need which ever one is less of a headache. I am not concerned about the price difference they are both within budget. I just dont have the time to fiddle with something I need a machine to mill and turn consistently to meet deadlines for our prototype...

[Steve Seebold]

although the PCNC 1100 is a great machine, if you need to do mill/turn in the same set up, the Tormach is the wrong machine for you.

I have had a PCNC 1100 for close to 5 years, and while I do some turning on it I do primarily milling. If I have a job that requires milling and turning, both operations have to be done in separate set ups.

[resilient]

What about the duality lathe with the 4th axis attachment?

[Steve Seebold]

What about the duality lathe with the 4th axis attachment?

I think the Duality Lathe has been discontinued.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If you need to do lathe-turned parts, and budget is not an issue, this should be a no-brainer - buy the lathe. Mill-Turn is ok for doing small numbers of small parts, but for production, I think there's no question a real lathe is better, and FAR more versatile.

But, it's not clear from your question if a lathe is really what you need? Do your parts require a mill, or a lathe, or both? How big are they? How many do you need to make? Your work should determine the tools you need.

Regards,
Ray L.

[sansbury]

So you either need a private jet or a greyhound bus ticket? The tooling alone for a real mill-turn machine will cost several times what an 1100 does, and then you're looking at 150k plus for the machine. If you're not sure which of these two you need, step 1 is find a job shop to make your first couple batches for you.

[resilient]

So you either need a private jet or a greyhound bus ticket? The tooling alone for a real mill-turn machine will cost several times what an 1100 does, and then you're looking at 150k plus for the machine. If you're not sure which of these two you need, step 1 is find a job shop to make your first couple batches for you.

Not sure how your math is working out there... Could you break it down for me because my numbers dont add up anywhere near that much. This is not my first rodeo i was just only have experience with larger machines but now im branching out on my own and dont have a spare 50,000 for a mini haas. By my estimate Im looking at an 1100, and a WebPageMain attachment. all under 15,000

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If your parts fit on the InTurn, it is an excellent product - FAR better than the defunct Duality lathe. And Steve, who designed and sells is, is a great guy who will provide outstanding support.

But, still, your application is not clear. Do you need a mill, or a lathe, or both? What are you making, how big is it, and what operation are required?

Regards,
Ray L.

[sansbury]

Not sure how your math is working out there... Could you break it down for me because my numbers dont add up anywhere near that much. This is not my first rodeo i was just only have experience with larger machines but now im branching out on my own and dont have a spare 50,000 for a mini haas. By my estimate Im looking at an 1100, and a WebPageMain attachment. all under 15,000

For a basic 1100 setup (3-axis, no ATC or other goodies) you're looking at 12-13k maybe, give or take some depending on how much tooling you have. I have an 1100 with rotary 4th axis and a moderate amount of tools and workholding and I'd guess I have about 15k in it to get there from scratch. Depending on what you have you might want to up your number a couple thousand if you're buying the InTurn (~3-4k) instead of the Tormach 4th (~1200?).

Also consider cost of CAM especially if you need 4-axis continuous because there are no free or really cheap options there. The Tormach version of Sprutcam is probably the cheapest at $1200 and you might be able to get BobCAD for around the same as a new customer.

When I hear "mill-turn machine" I think of something like a Mazak Integrex, and even talking used and beat to $#!!, you could probably buy and tool a Tormach 1100 and SBL-15 for a lot less than the cost of the Mazak. These are 6+ axis machines, often dual-spindle, really made for single-station production of complex parts. Depending on the part, you might be able to get away with a lathe with C- and/or Y-axis live tools for less money, but that's relatively speaking. Just the toolholders for live-tool lathes can cost several thousand a pop new. There are also some machines like the Brother Speedio M140X that are basically 5-axis VMCs with a turning capability that can do some interesting things, again, well into 6-figure territory.

[tmarks11]

When I hear "mill-turn machine" I think of something like a Mazak Integrex...

Not even close. This is a CNC bridge mill from Shopmaster, a company that "pioneered" the manual All-In-1 machine. Comes in at about $7k.

Here is their website:
shopmaster best 3 in 1 home cnc shop machine zone mill drill lathe - SHOPMASTER



And we all know how useful and well liked those manual All-in-1 machines are...

Personally, I wouldn't even consider one unless floor space was super precious. The mill looks like it would be flimsy as a noodle and couldn't take deep cuts. Also, better to have dedicated machines. The combo machine means that you are constantly tearing down and rebuilding your setup to machine your parts. If time is so precious (as the OP mentioned), then the Mill-Turn is NOT the way to go.

And I sincerely doubt that a $6.5k chinese cnc machine is going to be ready to go out of the crate without a lot of fiddling. Looking in the shipmaster forum, it looks like there is some agreement with that characterization.

...JT doesn't like to share any documentation so if you want to repair or maintain anything, you have to disassemble it and reverse engineer everything.... Not one thing on my Mill Turn worked out of the box; none of it was overly difficult to fix, but most of it I had to either sort out myself or get suggestions from forum members here.

The nice thing about Tormach is it works right out of the box, their manuals are works of art (including detailed schematics), and the machines are very well built. Every electrical wire has a cable label on it, they provide detailed troubleshooting guides in the manual.

The In-turn is a fourth axis that you can use for lathe type operations on your mill. Not cheap, but probably well worth it. A normal 4th axis won't work for lathe operations (turns too slow). While this gives you cnc lathe capability at the fraction of the price of a a separate unit, you again have the same problems of having to break down and set up way more often between operations.

[sansbury]

Ohhh, now I understand. Guess I've been hanging around the PM forum too much lately. I'd never even heard of this "Mill Turn" critter.

:withstupi

OP, I retract what I said earlier, this makes a lot more sense now. Whoops!

[Tkamsker]

I Would like to Unterstand the piece to Know if there isnt an easier way ..


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

[smallblock]

Not even close. This is a CNC bridge mill from Shopmaster, a company that "pioneered" the manual All-In-1 machine. Comes in at about $7k.

Here is their website:
shopmaster best 3 in 1 home cnc shop machine zone mill drill lathe - SHOPMASTER




Personally, I wouldn't even consider one unless floor space was super precious. The mill looks like it would be flimsy as a noodle and couldn't take deep cuts. Also, better to have dedicated machines. The combo machine means that you are constantly tearing down and rebuilding your setup to machine your parts.





.

To be fair, for many people floor space is precious and working from a home garage often precludes larger machines. The old saying about having to constantly tear down setups is mostly predicated on the assumption that your separate machines are always going to be doing the same operation. As far as milling rigidity is concerned, I'm sure the guy who can afford a Mazak Integrex would probably call the Tormach "weak as a noodle" and say you can't get anything done because you are always running around moving parts between your mill and lathe- it's all relative.

[tmarks11]

I am saying that mill is probably about as rigid as a Sieg X2 mini mill. That is pretty sad on something with that footprint.

Think about teardown this way: have to chuck a piece in the lathe to turn it. Then take off the QCTP, install the vise so you can mill a groove in the top. Then remove the vise, install the QCTP so you can face the surface. Kind of the common back and forth between mill and lathe that you do when building something. Having to mounts and align the vise every time is painful.

[smallblock]

I don't have any experience with a Sieg mill, so I can't say how rigid they are. I have used larger machines like old Bridgeports, which are quite solid. As far as the Shoptasks and Shopmasters I have owned over the past 20 + years, they have all been quite rigid for the size of machine they are. When I bought my first one, I took a lot of ribbing from my friends in the auto restoration business who were pretty much old school American iron types, but I did a lot of work on them that was way beyond their design capabilities. But that is all more about the operator than the machine. As far as your teardown scenario goes, that might happen, and for some it would be a nuisance, but for those who get enjoyment from the work, it would be no issue, and for the price of a Tormach Mill and Separate lathe, a guy could buy 5 or 6 Mill Turns and have each one dedicated to a single operation.

[resilient]

What do you think about charter oaks/ IH mill?

[smallblock]

What do you think about charter oaks/ IH mill?

Not sure if that was directed at me or just anyone. All the machines on these forums, Charter Oak, Novakon, Smithy and Tormach are essentially re-branded or slightly modified versions of Chinese designed machines. If you do some searching on the web, you can find them all being sold under various names. I think Charter Oak makes its claim for superiority because they use a standard Chinese machine and then do a teardown, re-assembly,ball screw retrofit and add all the CNC stuff here in an attempt to avoid the ubiquitous quality control problems from Chinese assembly. If you are a self sufficient type and a bit of a gambler, you can buy machines direct from China. However, for a single machine purchase, the related costs reduce the savings quite a bit. However if you were inclined to buy a couple lathes and mills in a single purchase, you could save as much as 50%.

[sansbury]

The old saying goes that any mill or lathe is better than none, and skill and patience can make up for a lot of deficiencies. The 3-in-1 machines are compromise machines compared to a Tormach, just as the Tormach is a compromise compared to a Haas, and a Haas is compared to a Mori Seiki.

Personally, unless space was a severe issue, I would much rather have dedicated machines, even much smaller ones. I love my 1100 but if I was starting over the 440 would be really tempting, and you could get that and a Grizzly manual lathe or similar and be very nicely set up. I suspect the easily-usable work envelope on that 3-in-1 is a lot smaller than the specs compared to the Tormachs. Personally, I find I use a mill ten times as much as I use a lathe (or more), and so I'm mostly content with the manual lathe. That said, I've also "turned" parts on my 1100 by milling them, and if you don't need roundness better than +/- .001", it's a very practical way to make relatively short parts, and even complicated ones like this:

Attachment 311952

Regarding the need to tear down setups, working in the shop may beat scrubbing the bathroom, but as time has gone by one thing I've continued to invest in is more and more quick-change fixtures, tooling, etc. I take enjoyment from getting things finished, and the more time I have to spend adjusting, aligning, and fidgeting to make a part, the more annoyed I get.

As for Charter Oak and Novakon, the reason I chose Tormach was the support and high level of long-term vendor viability. Tormach feels to me like the most thoroughly thought-out of these machines, has the most units shipped (I'm guessing), and has been around for over a decade. This isn't to denigrate any of the other vendors, who offer what look like some good specs (in some places superior) and seem to have a fair number of satisfied customers. I just feel more comfortable with Tormach's size which is neither too big nor too small.

[popspipes]

The old saying goes that any mill or lathe is better than none, and skill and patience can make up for a lot of deficiencies. The 3-in-1 machines are compromise machines compared to a Tormach, just as the Tormach is a compromise compared to a Haas, and a Haas is compared to a Mori Seiki.

Personally, unless space was a severe issue, I would much rather have dedicated machines, even much smaller ones. I love my 1100 but if I was starting over the 440 would be really tempting, and you could get that and a Grizzly manual lathe or similar and be very nicely set up. I suspect the easily-usable work envelope on that 3-in-1 is a lot smaller than the specs compared to the Tormachs. Personally, I find I use a mill ten times as much as I use a lathe (or more), and so I'm mostly content with the manual lathe. That said, I've also "turned" parts on my 1100 by milling them, and if you don't need roundness better than +/- .001", it's a very practical way to make relatively short parts, and even complicated ones like this:

Attachment 311952

Regarding the need to tear down setups, working in the shop may beat scrubbing the bathroom, but as time has gone by one thing I've continued to invest in is more and more quick-change fixtures, tooling, etc. I take enjoyment from getting things finished, and the more time I have to spend adjusting, aligning, and fidgeting to make a part, the more annoyed I get.

As for Charter Oak and Novakon, the reason I chose Tormach was the support and high level of long-term vendor viability. Tormach feels to me like the most thoroughly thought-out of these machines, has the most units shipped (I'm guessing), and has been around for over a decade. This isn't to denigrate any of the other vendors, who offer what look like some good specs (in some places superior) and seem to have a fair number of satisfied customers. I just feel more comfortable with Tormach's size which is neither too big nor too small.

We had a screw like that one used in a plastic extruder for making milk jug caps...........

My first Mill was a converted drill press with a cross slide table, I used to make model boat hardware on it, suprising what can be done with a bit of ingenuity and a piece of junk...............

[jdclark]

[QUOTE I suspect the easily-usable work envelope on that 3-in-1 is a lot smaller than the specs compared to the Tormachs. .[/QUOTE]

Actually they are quite close between the Tormach 770 and 15L lathe and the Shopmaster mill turn-

SHOPMASTER MILL TURN VFD MILL
2 HP VFD 3 PHASE MOTOR
R- 8 SPINDLE
TABLE SIZE 9 x 19
X TRAVEL 23″
Y TRAVEL 10″
Z TRAVEL 11"
Z MOTION 6 LINEAR RAILS
SPINDLE TO TABLE MAX 14″
CNC MOTORS- STEPPERS
DRIVES- GECKO MADE IN USA
SOFTWARE- MACH III

TORMACH 770 MILL
1 HP 3 PHASE MOTOR
R-8 SPINDLE
TABLE SIZE 8 X 26
X TRAVEL 14
Y TRAVEL 7.5
Z TRAVEL 13.5
Z MOTION V WAYS
SPINDLE TO TABLE MAX 14.8
CNC MOTORS STEPPERS
DRIVES CHINESE
SOFTWARE- PATH PILOT

SHOPMASTER MILL TURN VFD LATHE
2 HP VFD 3 PHASE MOTOR
SWING OVER BED 17″
SWING OVER CARRIAGE 7.5″
DISTANCE BETWEEN CENTERS 30″
CARRIAGE SIZE 9" X 19"
SPINDLE BORE 1.59"
CHUCK SIZE 6"
FEED RATE MAX X 100 IPM Z 80 IPM
CNC CONTROLS – GECKO MADE IN USA
SOFTWARE- MACH III

TORMACH 15L SLANT PRO LATHE
3HP
SWING OVER BED 15"
SWING OVER CARRIAGE 6.2"
DISTANCE BETWEEN CENTERS- HAS NO TAILSTOCK
CARRIAGE SIZE 24.5 X 6
SPINDLE BORE 1.53
CHUCK SIZE 6"
FEED RATE MAX X 60 IPM Z 60 IPM
CNC CONTROLS MADE IN CHINA
SOFTWARE CONVERSATIONAL