[lcvette]

Well, I figured I would post this information out there for the up and coming or perhaps the veteran G0704 owners who are looking for an upgraded spindle motor and may be overwhelmed by the options and particulars of choosing, I know I was when I started investigating all the options.

I have made enough mistakes along the way to help educate those who would prefer to stand on the shoulders of my failed attempts and get it right the first time. I'm sure some will think they are immune to my misfortunes and the norm doesn't pertain to them and that is fine, some people must make their own path and learn through trial and error.. I was one of those people who saw the thread about the treadmill motors and dove in head first. Granted back then there was very little information available as to the longevity of the motors in this application and Hoss was still in the early stages of testing. My findings are treadmill motors don't last very long before brush deterioration occurs and smoke and arcing begins.

Next up I tried the 2.2kw BLDC setup and while this last much longer, the motor and driver failed to deliver any appreciable stable torque. It would recover but often times the part finish would suffer from the dip in rpm. They also had some reliability issues and were very expensive to have these issues in my opinion. I spent alot of money replacing drivers and always felt disappointed in its performance.

Finally my BLDC gave up the ghost again and with a quote for $300 to replace the motor this time i finally said enough is enough. It's time to go with something that will perform and last.

So I have been doing a ton of research and have determined by far the easiest thing to get and trust with tons of power is an AC 3ph and VFD. While this isn't new knowledge, it does come with a severe lack of information and what is available is very scattered and jumbled with other uses so its hard to trust if it will work for your application.

Through my research and lengthy time discussing this ad nauseum with the experienced engineers at a variety of drive and Motor supplier companies. I finally felt confident enough to pull the trigger on a setup.



I opted for a good drive and cheap motor because its the holidays and fun money was tight so I grabbed the 2hp iron horse series motor from Automation Direct. This motor is a general purpose motor with an F insulation class rating which is acceptable for inverter duty. Through my discussions, it was determined that the BEST motor would be their Inverter Duty Rated Micro Max 1.5hp Y366. It has 1000:1 constant torque so pretty much from zero rpm to 1800rpm you have full torque and can be over driven via the VFD 2 times the rates speed to 3600rpm with full Horse power. I found this model motor new for $305 here from Electric Motor Wharehouse.. (I may have bought it had I found it before placing my Automation Direct order. They listed the motor for $389 I believe.)

145THTR5329 MARATHON Y366

This is a true insulation class H inverter duty rated motor and when used with the GS3 Durapulse drive in feedback vector mode could be controlled the same as a VMC spindle with indexing and rigid tapping no problem. The frame size is 145T, ( this was an area of great confusion for me, as I had been looking strictly for 56c motor frame sizes). The 145T dimensions are the same as the 56C general purpose motor I purchased according to the drawing spec sheet. Being an 1800rpm motor, it would require an over drive pulley setup, you could go 1:2 and have over 7000rpm and the 1000:1constant torque would still allow a ton of low end grunt down to 3rpm.

For the Durapulse GS3 22P0 AC Drive I was informed of many precautionary measures I should employ. The information is below.

You will want to grab an input side single phase line reactor and output side 3 phase line reactor to smooth the wave form and promote cooler running of the motor at lower rpm and an EMI filter, RF Filter and fuse block. All available and easy to select for the specific drive. This will help keep all your electronics running without a hiccup and protect your home service from feedback. I didn't k ow this but most power companies require you to have a line reactor before the AC Drive.. (I know very few people use them. But I figured with my luck I better play it safe)

By far this is the BEST setup for this mill for full RPM low to high performance with all the extras, prepare to spend about $850-900 but it will be 1 and done and you will never look back.. Between the treadmill motors I tried, the BLDC setup and replacement components to fix it unsuccessfully, and all the time and material and components purchased on the first attempts, I have about $1700 invested in failed motor setups and now spending $680 on top of that to be where I should have been in the first place.

To recap for any readers, below are the parts recommended by all the people in the know for the G0704...

From Automation Direct:

GS3-22P0 Durapulse 1.5hp 1ph input 3ph output AC Drive (contact Automation Direct they will ensure you get the correct peripherals)

LR-22P0 output Line Reactor

LR-22P0-1PH Input Line Reactor

20DRT1W3S EMI input line filter

RF220X00A Zero phase RF Filter

GS-22P0-FKIT-1P Fuse Kit


From Electric Motor Wholesale:

Marathon Micro Max 1.5hp Y366 3ph AC Motor insulation Class H Inverter duty 1000:1 constant torque 1800rpm motor.

That is a recipe I received from Automation Direct for this application.. The peripherals some do without, but I decided no more shortcuts I don't want to hurt this nice equipment or deal with RF interference. I also wanted to help the motor run as cool as possible with the line reactors and not worry with feedback into anything in my home shop electrical system... So to anyone looking for the best bang for the buck. This is relatively cheap for what you are buying and its performance capabilities.. The only drawback is the same with any AC motor VFD setup and that is the motors are large and require new mounting.

So anyone running stock motor.. I recommend designing and making parts for this conversion as one of the first things you do once cnc'd. Even if you Don't upgrade the motor. Have the parts made and ready for when you kill the stocker.. Cause it will eventually happen.

I hope this helps those who are as confused as I was going into this endeavor!!

Attachment 301854



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[gcofieldd]

Hey Icvette, sorry to hear you are still having motor troubles. I bought a 1.5 hp BLDC from skyfire before he disappeared. The motor is the same as what you get from keling, but the driver is different. the driver is from Tonman and works much better than what keling sells. The fact that you have had motor trouble is concerning. That means I need to design a second solution and have it standing by as well. Just so you guys know, skyfire sent me a used motor and driver.

Thank you for all the info you have pulled together. I like the design you have come up with a lot, but you will have to offset the column from the base to account for the offset head. This will further reduce the rigidity of the mill which is not great to begin with. You may want to consider getting an RF45. I have been thinking about that a lot.

I have also found another AC motor which would keep you from doing all the gymnastics to keep your automatic drawbar. The motor is not as high hp but should work well. Here is the link:
Groschopp | AC Motors and Gearmotors

Good luck man

[lcvette]

Hey Icvette, sorry to hear you are still having motor troubles. I bought a 1.5 hp BLDC from skyfire before he disappeared. The motor is the same as what you get from keling, but the driver is different. the driver is from Tonman and works much better than what keling sells. The fact that you have had motor trouble is concerning. That means I need to design a second solution and have it standing by as well. Just so you guys know, skyfire sent me a used motor and driver.

Thank you for all the info you have pulled together. I like the design you have come up with a lot, but you will have to offset the column from the base to account for the offset head. This will further reduce the rigidity of the mill which is not great to begin with. You may want to consider getting an RF45. I have been thinking about that a lot.

I have also found another AC motor which would keep you from doing all the gymnastics to keep your automatic drawbar. The motor is not as high hp but should work well. Here is the link:
Groschopp | AC Motors and Gearmotors

Good luck man

I'm done with BLDC's and the company you linked looks interesting, bit I'm done being the guinea pig....lol. I paid my dues it someone else's turn now to flip the trial and error bill. I did send them an email to get a quote and ask about larger motors But I have a feeling there is a reason larger HP motors are simply larger and heavier.

As for the spacer.. I will be bolting the column directly to the base and let extending the Y travel by adding a spacer to the front of the base and using linear rails on the Y as well. If the column flexes, so be it it will still be 100% better then the dovetail ways that were on it with the 3.5" spacer and rotary table I had on there previously and it cut fine in that situation except for the head sag from the dovetails. I'm hoping the 6 HGH20 bearing blocks will help hold the column a bit better and I plan to counter weight the column in the back to hold the load more uniformly or perhaps add a brace of sorts.

I have 2 16.47" 30lb gas struts that will be added to each side of the new z slide. And I'm running a Nema34 1200oz inch closed loop stepper which doesn't even flinch at the load I had previously and would run 400ipm if I wanted it too plenty fast and that was without the gas struts.

I sent you a PM. Check it and get back to me.. I've been shopping for a new mill and found one very interesting! You may like it too!

Chris

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[TheLoamRanger]

A few months ago I finished my G0704 CNC conversion based on Hoss's plans, with ball screws and a 906 oz-in NEMA 34 stepper for the z-axis (open loop). I'm using a Leadshine MX3660 stepper driver, which has built-in PWM for controlling a VFD. I'm not convinced this drive will last forever, so I will replace with individual drives, BOB, etc when the time comes (it was great to learn with, though, as I'm a mechanical guy, not an electrical guy).

I'm thinking the current motor and spindle bearings are holding me back a bit. They get pretty warm and the bearings start getting pretty noisy after 20+ minutes of continuous use. So I can't run the mill for too long without stopping to let it all cool down.

lcvette, Thanks a ton for all of the information you are posting in the forum. This thread in particular is very timely for me, as I have spent the past few days researching my options for upgrading my mill motor. It seems like the best path forward would be a VFD and AC motor as you described, along with a belt drive and spindle bearing upgrade. However, I'm still hesitant to pull the trigger based on how big and heavy these motors are! I don't really have much desire to create a spacer for the head and expand the work envelope right now. I also don't have a power drawbar to get in the way...

Can a typical 56c or similarly sized motor fit without creating that spacer?
It doesn't seem like NEMA 48 is a common motor size, but something like that in a 1.5 HP capacity would be ideal.


Also, I'm sure Hoss will see this post eventually, so thanks for all the help! All of you guys pitching in with forum posts and videos has been extremely helpful! This is really turning out to be a fun hobby.

[lcvette]

Yes. If you don't have a traditional style PDB, the 56c and 145T motors listed above will fit without needing to space the head any.

Are you using Tormach style tooling? If not you are really missing out on easy machining and repeatable tool lengths.. If you do have them x the power draw bar is handy but not a necessity.

There are also some other designs that might be made to work or you can get creative and design something totally new. The beauty of having machinery and design software is the only limitation is imagination.. Lol

I'm glad this helped out! The motor gcofieldd listed a link to above is very interesting. I am waiting to hear back with what they say as far as possibly a higher HP such as 1.5 - 2hp and of course pricing.. If they can make one with a smaller foot print that puts out the same torque and RPM and the price isn't astronomical it may be worth trying out. Especially if they are flexible with making changes to the prototype for a bulk order.. May be the new BEST option for these mills, bit testing will need to be done to verify performance.

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[Deinonychus]

Leeson makes a metric 3600rpm 3 phase motor with the same bolt pattern as the BLDC motor. It is physically smaller than 56C motor with the same horsepower. The frame size is D180C. I use one with my G0704 belt drive and a Hitachi VFD. It is 1.1KW (1.5 HP)

- - - Updated - - -

[gcofieldd]

Leeson makes a metric 3600rpm 3 phase motor with the same bolt pattern as the BLDC motor. It is physically smaller than 56C motor with the same horsepower. The frame size is D180C. I use one with my G0704 belt drive and a Hitachi VFD. It is 1.1KW (1.5 HP)

- - - Updated - - -

I have seen you post this information up a couple of other times and every time you do, I go looking for the motor. The only thing I can find that comes close to matching your description is Leeson model number C80T34FZ4C, which is catalog no 192067.00. This is not a small motor. It is 6.26 inches in diameter. Also, I cannot find a D180C frame size. I can find a D80 frame size. So if this unicorn does exist can you please link it and post a pic of your setup? That would be very helpful.

From what I have been able to find, Baldor makes the smallest 56C face mount motor, but at just over 5 inches it will also interfere with a PDB setup.

[TheLoamRanger]

lcvette, I am just using standard R8 tooling at the moment. I've definitely been checking out the Tormach tooling lately. I'm not sure when I'll buy in and start testing it out, but I'd definitely like to sometime next year if funds allow it (too many cool things, not enough cash).
Also, I am definitely interested in building a PDB, but just don't see myself doing that for quite a while. If I have to eventually space the head out, expand the y-axis travel to add a PDB, or come up with an alternative PDB, I can do that. It's just that building up a cool mill isn't my only project! haha. Having the ability to prototype my ideas in my shop is the reason I started this whole thing!

Please let me know what you end up hearing back on for capabilities/size/rough price/etc for the groschopp motor. I'm definitely interested to hear more.

Deinonychus, I also had trouble locating such a motor in the Leeson catalogs - it was driving me nuts. Do you have the part number?

[gcofieldd]

I have seen you post this information up a couple of other times and every time you do, I go looking for the motor. The only thing I can find that comes close to matching your description is Leeson model number C80T34FZ4C, which is catalog no 192067.00. This is not a small motor. It is 6.26 inches in diameter. Also, I cannot find a D180C frame size. I can find a D80 frame size. So if this unicorn does exist can you please link it and post a pic of your setup? That would be very helpful.

From what I have been able to find, Baldor makes the smallest 56C face mount motor, but at just over 5 inches it will also interfere with a PDB setup.

Ok, so I am a turd. I found the thread you started with the information. Here is a link:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...73986-cnc.html

It looks promising. I just need to find a dimensional drawing for it.

[lcvette]

Here is the drawing for that motor.. Has a smaller bolt circle and appears to be just over 6" in overall diameter including cooking fin protrusion.. It appears the horizontal feet are cast into the body however so you will need to contend with that somehow. Overall it buys you .5".

192067.00 LEESON 192067 C80T34FZ4

The biggest thing I see that no body is discussing is the constant torque ratio... At minimum you want a 10:1 constant torque.

The way this ratio is interpreted is the motor will produce the same torque at the ratio of the rates speed.

So 1800 rpm motor with a 10:1 constant torque will produce the same torque at 1/10 the rated speed or for this example 180rpm, below that torque falls off a cliff. The other figure we want to consider when motor shopping is the full RPM horsepower rating.

Most non inverter or vector duty motors will have a 1.5 full horsepower rating meaning it will maintain advertised horsepower up to 1.5 x rated rpm or

1800 X 1.5 = 2700rpm. Beyond that, power falls off a cliff.

An inverter rated motor as I posted has the benefit of 1000:1 constant torque do in this same scenario, full torque down to 1800/1000 = 1.8 rpm

And has a full horsepower output ratio of 2, so 1800 X 2 = 3600rpm

It also has a service factor or slip factor of 1.00 which means it will not slip as a general purpose or non inverter / vector duty motor.

These factors are very important especially if using a vector duty drive which can deliver the motors full benefit either in sensor less vector mode or encoder feedback vector mode.

It was explained that in encoder feedback vector duty mode these motors are very much like a servo with very accurate indexing and speed control which could easily be used for rigid tapping (not sure in mach3) but certainly with mach4 or Linux cnc.

It also has an insulation rating of H which is a good bit higher than F in terms of temperature rating operation range. Heat is built up at lower speeds and alot more so in non inverter duty motors as they don't handle the wave form as well as inverter/vector motors. So their efficiency ratings are poor in comparison.

So be sure to factor in the important information along with the fitment information when making your decision.

Based on my drawings the full size 56c motor would require a minimum 1" spacer on the head to accommodate the motor with a drawbar like I have which is 3.861" front to back depth and is centered on the spindle.

I think if you have made the mods to the base of the machine to get the extended Y travel. You may only need a very small column spacer to allow equal movement in front of a behind the spindle centerline. Maybe only a 1/2" column to base spacer. But you would have to measure for your particular machine to verify.

Either way, that small of a spacer will have very little effect except on the z column dovetails. I would strongly suggest also adding a pulley style counter weighted system that not only balanced the weight but also pulled the top of the head back against the dovetails.. (Anchors more in the middle front of the head.). This would allow much better gibb tightening and adjustment and pull the forward hanging weight off of the top portion of the dovetails.

Hope that explanation helped a bit.

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[Fastest1]

It says the feet are removable in the specs.

[Deinonychus]

The feet do unbolt.

[lcvette]

Oh that's a good thing! So it eliminates that headache... Anyone find info on the constant torque rating. I looked briefly and didn't see anything.

I also received an email reply for the groschopp request.. They are getting one of their techs to look into maybe a larger motor and will send me details and contact when they finish reviewing the request.

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[Kenny Duval]

You guys have me a tick nervous but I still haven't had any issues out of my BLDC setup. Of course you guys may have put more time on yours than I have but so far so good.

[lcvette]

You guys have me a tick nervous but I still haven't had any issues out of my BLDC setup. Of course you guys may have put more time on yours than I have but so far so good.

Kenny,

I have run mine for many hours and as I stated it got me by and was by far better then the treadmill motors, and the latest driver I received has lasted fine without incident even when pushed hard and even after a few stalls, bit the vibration appeared a few months ago and has progressively gotten worse. I thought it was spindle or quill barrel bearings or possibly the timing pulley belt drive but when I went to balance the new multirib pulley on the motor I noticed the motor vibrating badly at even 1000tpm and worse as rpm increased.. I checked shaft runout and it was fine, bearings are still quiet and tight so I can only assume something internally has come apart throwing it out of balance. When new this thing was whisper quiet up to max 6000rpm limit, you could run it on a glass table and it wouldn't make a noise... This feels like an out of balance bench grinder that walks all your tools off the bench when running....

And because it was a slow process of going from good to worse its hard to detect what if any external cause created the issue.

It's possible the timing pulley and spindle imbalance over time caused the internal failure but I can't confirm one way or the other. In either event I can't justify $300 again to replace the motor to give lack luster performance, I'd rather go bigger and better and proven.

So maybe not a bad idea to have a set of new motor plates and mounts made JIC... Maybe then you will never need them, but if you do.. You will be glad you have them handy.. Sure wish I did!

Chris

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[lcvette]

And I just heard from Groschopp,

Here is the information I was given Regarding the current 1.12hp option..

AC6129 1.12hp 22in/lb torque 3210rpm@60hz

4:1 constant torque (full torque down to ~800rpm)

Full horsepower to 120hz @ 6400RPM (this is good!)

50% torque @ 6400rpm

UL insulation class of B

But components and materials used are insulation class H (180deg). The motors were only UL tested to class B so while they say they are confident it can handle H conditions they legally have to advertise it at B ratings.

They can be over driven to 1.49hp with a 5 minute on 10 minute off duty cycle.

Cost per single unit is $210.83

Price break at 10 unit qty (he is emailing me a full quote for that, will post when it arrives)

Also says they will investigate higher horsepower using their designs for sustainable use but would be a custom order build and require a minimum quantity order of 50 units.

So to any who were interested in those smaller motors there you go..

If it were at least 10:1 constant torque I might consider ordering one to test with the new VFD. But I personally cant persuade myself to see enough benefit to give it a try at that price point.

If it had constant torque to 320rpm with its full HP to 6400rpm it would make a really nice setup for light machining using a 1:1 pulley ratio with a nice broad rpm band.

For multiple pulley setups it may work for some.. I would want a 1:1 and 2:1 which would get you down to 400rpm at least with the same constant torque up to 1605rpm and full horsepower to 3210rpm on the 2:1 pulley.

I just want a single pulley setup. I use the mill alot and dealing with pulley changes especially mid part, becomes a pain in the rear in my opinion. But for weekend warriors it may not be as much of a hassle?

Chris



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[lcvette]

Got the quote from Groschopp for an order of 10 units the price drops to $196.68 per unit.


Lead time on an order is 2-4 weeks after payment is received for order.

Another point that makes this Motor attractive is the weight, which is 14.5lbs.. That would really help those with smaller z stepper motors.

I have requested they investigate the possibility of making the larger horsepower custom model at least 10:1 constant torque which would give a 1:1 pulley ratio setup full torque from 320 - 3200rpm and full horsepower to 6400rpm which would be a really nice powerband for these mills to have without the need for belt changes. And if you wanted to do a double pulley setup say 2:3 and 3:2 it would give you a really broad operating range from 214 - 9600rpm. Obviously the higher rpms would be best suited for smaller endmills and 3d milling operations.

Just thinking out loud..


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[rs4race]

I have been taking a break since its freezing in the garage, but I was really considering the leeson motor 192067.30 its a d80c frame , 1.5hp , 3475rpm 10:1CT motor. It also weighs in at a whopping 27lbs which should help your z axis with those rapids. This motors specs are identical to what tormach uses in the PCNC 1100.

I was also looking at leeson 192047.30 which is a d71c frame motor 0.75hp. Its only 15lbs and IIRC should fit the stock motor location, probably a good power bump since cheap DC motors in equipment like this are generally peak rated vs continuous. You can get these in 1hp from tormach (PCNC 770 motor) or buy them from the UK but shipping to the USA kills the price.

I'm still looking at the d80c leeson motor, but will be waiting until it gets warmer or I finish some other projects.

[lcvette]

Where did you find the constant torque rating for the leeson? That's pretty good! I wasn't able to find anything regarding that rating in my searches.. But the pricing looks good and the 27lbs also is nice! I might send the 2hp general purpose motor back if you can verify that 10:1 CT and get one of those lessons on the way!

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[lcvette]

I received a reply from Groschopp and they said they can make a 1.5+HP motor but the customer would need to cover the tooling costs for the longer rotors, waiting to hear what that would cost.. Bit footprint would remain the same just add length to the main body.

They also said they could increase the constant torque on the existing motors to 10:1 and supply custom drives to take full advantage of the motors. Will report back when I have some idea on the tooling costs for the longer higher horsepower motors.

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