[kochevnik]

I'm thinking about buying a Haas TM-1P in the next few months. I sent an email to Haas and want to ask some of the same questions here to see if what they say is the real truth or not.

Haas has two different probing options, MIPS and the Visual Quick Code - anyone here use one of them ? And just what exactly is the difference between them ?

This mill can be setup to run on 1 phase power instead of 3 phase, anyone know if this affect performance in any way ?

If the chip conveyor option is not purchased, what would be the best way for an operator to remove chips from the machine ? (Shop Vac ?

There are two different floppy drive options - what is the difference ? Someone here mentioned that this floppy option is really now a jumpdrive/USB drive - is this true and if so is there any maximum size to the jump/USB drive which can be used ?

And another dumb question (sorry) - what exactly is 'spindle orientation' and how is it best used ?

Any other options I should seriously consider ? (like maybe buy some other machine ???

I really value the information I find here - all the guys are out to find the truth whatever it is - I sincerely appreciate any advice you guys can give me as this will be the biggest purchase I have ever made.

Thanks,
Matt

[AMCTony]

I have a TM-1 and have used a VF-3YT. I run my TM-1 on single phase and really tear into some material. I have no trouble at all. It is my understanding that the machine converts the power input to 320VDC but I am not 100% sure about that.

GET THE CHIP CONVEYOR!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have heard that the USB is standard now but this may not be so on the TM mills. MAKE SURE THAT YOU GET THE USB. Floppy is worthless in comparison. I have a floppy and 1M of memory and always am out of room.

Get rigid tapping and if you are going to do 3D work absolutly get Highspeed Machining. The difference is VERY noticible at feeds over 20IPM on 3D surfaces.

These are things that I have first hand experience with and your application will be one of the biggest factors in the options that you get. Is this machine for hobby use or business use? If it is for business use then anything that saves you time is cash in the bank.

[pit202]

> GET THE CHIP CONVEYOR!!!!!!!!!!!!

thats 100% true

[btomlinson]

Hi Matt, I'm considering the same machine for myself sometime in the future.
I have used both the IPS and visual quick code. IMHO I would get the IPS over the Visual...Its well worth the price. These aren't full blown programing systems but great for quick keyways,pockets, Bolt-hole patterns,etc. Haas has a great Calculator feature in the IPS for Trig and feed/speed calculations.

Get the chip conveyor..!!

Get the USB option. 3.5 floppy's will get you by but if your doing and serous programs the floppy wont cut it ( no pun intended)

Spindle orientation ( M19) This would be used if you wanted to perform a broaching operation. Its one of those options that you may go years without using but I would get it

Like AMCTony said I would get the rigid tap and possibly the high speed machining opp. I would also consider a 4th or 5th axis prewire

One very cool feature about Haas is some options can be purchased by simply entering a custom code into the control. Some options like Rigid-tap
(I think) and Macros come with a free 200 hour trial

Best of luck and keep us posted


Brian

[btomlinson]

AMC Tony, are you running on 1 phase at home ?


Brian

[Zeekh]

Matt, I just bought a TM2. I love it. I think getting some of these options greatly depends on your budget. I skipped the USB/floppy drive. I just hook up my notebook computer. Minor hassle with cabling but saved $. I think the USB option came with a different screen size also. I would run on 3 phase if available machine will use less electricity. I was told no difference in machine performance also but I don't know first hand. I don't know anything about probing. All of the options like spindle orientation, rigid tapping, etc can be turned on for a 200 hr test drive at no charge to you after you get the machine. I would get the chip guard to keep coolant where it belongs, way covers, coolant pump. I didn't know this macine came with a chip conveyor. I do use a shop vac in mine. It a pain in the butt but thats what I doought my machine. Most of the options can be added after delivery of the machine so if $ is a worry now upgrade down the road. Tim

[btomlinson]

Tim, is the TM2 available enclosed ?

[Zeekh]

They have a chip/coolant guard that mounts to the table ($729). I don't know how good it works, I didn't buy it. I do alot of large plates so I figured the guard would be in the way and I didn't know how easily it monted.. I presently have a couple of piece of lexan mounted to the table to keep coolant where it belongs. I eventually plan on mounting these with magnets for easy on/off mounting. As I said I was on a very tight budget when I bought the machine.

One thing that did annoy me about the machine was the chip trays are not sealed very well the the machine. Coolant dripped everywhere when I first got the machine. I pulled them all off and resealed. It helped but I still a few small drips

[Zeekh]

The USB drive connection is $3,000 without any drive just the USB port. I can't see paying that much. Run an RS232 line and you're cooking with gas!

[kochevnik]

I'm not a job shop - so I don't need to be setting up all new designs all the time - and speed of production is not as critical as quality and the ability to make changes to my designs efficiently. I work mostly in steel and have a number of designs I hope to be able to sell, but the Haas would have to wait till there was enough demand to justify moving to a bigger machine (bigger for me, small for most I suppose ) I think I would probably skip the USB and the FDD too - the goal is to just get data to the machine - a cable is actually
a better solution anyways.

BTomlinson : I'm confused, I thought the MIPS and the Visual Quick Code system were both probing systems, for probing work and tool offsets. What else do these do ? Doesn't the general Quick Code language ( that allows for bolt hole drilling, pockets, etc.) come standard on the mill ?

I don't do 3D stuff, so HSM isn't for me, neither is extra memory since our programs are pretty simple (just thinking out loud here) - Rigid Tapping is a yes, as is spindle orientation (anyone know how many degrees the spindle can be moved with this option ?) seems like S.O. would be VERY useful if you did ANY angle work at all (and we do). Fourth axis would be nice, but other things would take priority so I don't think that would fit under the budget. I've read about the power failure option elsewhere here and isn't worth the money for me.

It seems to me the best strategy for buying a Haas is to concentrate on adding the 'physical' options first and then the options that are turned on with a code could be added after the 200 hours are up. A basic question - I've seen conflicting reports that the 200 hours period is based on either machine powered on time or is it based on the hours that the option code is enabled ? Anyone have first hand experience in how this works ? Seems like some of the options 200 hours could last quite a long time if you don't use them very often.

I'm mostly interested in the 1P because of the enclosure and having the tool changer as standard. If we go with the stategy outlined above, seems like the coolant kit and the chip conveyor would be at the top of the list - $2000 buys a lot of shop vac time tho - I'd have to think about it ...

Which leaves: Coordinate Rotation & Scaling, Macros, and the spare M functions - any opinions on these ? Anyone using them ?

So this means 33.7K or 35.7k out the door (and pay for the other stuff later )

Last thing - I've looked at some other machines like the Sharp 2412 and the Hurco VM-1 all in the same price range, anyone else think these are a better buy ? Seems to me the Haas has a bigger table and better service options (but not as good of a warranty). And anyone know if Haas will be coming out with enclosed versions of the TM-3 or TM-4 (that would be nice).

Thanks again for all the help and advice everyone - much appreciated.

[AMCTony]

Im Running 1 phase at an industrial building in Yuma, AZ. This is the only place that I have ever been that the industrial buildings were ALL setup with 1 phase only. There is 3 phase at the road but it is cheaper to buy a CNC qualified add a phase than to have the power company run it in. As for the 200 hours. I was able to get 2 years out of it by turning it on only when I needed it and then turning it off as soon as I was finished.

[AMCTony]

Spare M functions would be very usefull if you are a tech automation geek. If you are you will definitly find use for them

[RUPTAIN]

I Own Three Haas Maching Centers.
Have Always Been Pleased

Ruptain

[RUPTAIN]

Machining - Sorry Not Enough Caffiene This Morning

[gar]

061211-1204 EST USA

Zeekh:

Why do you think the power consumption will be much greater on single phase?

All the servos and spindle run from the 320 VDC bus. This is a bank of capacitors fed from some diodes, more in the case of three phase. There may be a small difference in the diode power loss and peak current IR losses between three phase and single, but this is going to be small compared power used for cutting.

The remaining motors that run directly from the line are not high power devices and any efficiency is not a big factor.

However, I would favor three phase, but not because of any difference in power consumption.


kochevnik:

One of greatest features of HAAS is the simplicity of using the control panel.

Spindle orientation is probably a part of rigid tapping.

For what function do you want to use probing? Probing will require macros.

Ultimately you want macros, and scaling and rotation are useful. I use macros all the time for my tool change routine. I also use macros to allow use of a single variable to control how many parts are run from one piece of stock. If you want to output data, then macros are required to get DPRNT capability.

Why not consider a VF series?

If you run RS232 from a distance, then consider my I232 Isolation System. See www.beta-a2.com .

.

[blackc1]

I think you need to orient the spindle (m19) to do a tool change using the automatic tool changer.

[philipm]

M19 spindle orient - Allows you to rate the spinde in full degrees using the "P" command. For example "M19 P270;" using an "R" command you can position the spindle to 4 decimal places. For example "M19 R270.1243;"

The object is what the hell can you use this for? In a mill you can use the spindle to rotate to a known location, shift over in X, then exit the hole with a boreing head. Another option would be to broach. I have never tried that on a haas. I have seen it done on Moris quite frequently. I'm not sure the haas has much spindle holding torque to use it like a shaper. The Mori in question did not either. A pin and guide bushing was used to stop deflection.

You do not need to pay for spindle orient to make the tool changer work. It will use M19 orientation, but you don't have to pay for that extra feature if you dont need it. I have not tried it on our mill yet but you also should not need spindle orient to locate the spindle out of a boreing operation. You can press the key on the keypad that says "orient" and it should regardless if you pay for M19 spindle orientation. The differance is it will not respond to a "R" or "P" command.

If you had a lathe spindle orientation becomes more valuable. Like to orient a 3 jaw chuck to bar feed hex with a haas servo bar feeder. Or used in combination with a hydraulic spindle brake to position and hold for live tooling drilling if you do not have the "Full C axis"


Another option is this, have any of you used the ZIP drive option? Its not really an option so much as you just have to plug it in. At least that is how I remember reading about it in a HS-1 horizontal manual. Its setting 134 I think and you must use the lower of the two rear parallel ports. I seem to recall it working only with old iomega 100mb products. Im not 100% on this but hell you could score an old zip drive for lunch money and try it. I cant seem to find it in the new manual. Are they pusing the HDD/Enet too hard to let this gem out?

Phil

[kochevnik]

Well, ok I am an idiot, I did not understand spindle orientation at all. So is there some marker on the spindle that indicate 0 degrees ? Then if you were going to use this with a tool changer and a boring bar, you must have to make sure the spindle orients back to some same degree each time it drops off the boring bar in the tool changer so you know which way the bar is pointed ? Or am I still not understanding this correctly ? (I thought SO meant the spindle head would actually TILT to some degree :withstupi )

As for why not a VF - that's easy $$$$$ I have a budget (and a wife ). and it's about $35K (not the wife - the budget )

Gar - can you explain how you use macros in a toolchanging routine ? Can't wrap my head around that one (and thanks for the link - I'll save it for later).

The main reason for my using probing would be setting tool and work offsets, that's about it.

Looks like SO is not so useful as I thought.

[philipm]

Well, ok I am an idiot, I did not understand spindle orientation at all. So is there some marker on the spindle that indicate 0 degrees ? Then if you were going to use this with a tool changer and a boring bar, you must have to make sure the spindle orients back to some same degree each time it drops off the boring bar in the tool changer so you know which way the bar is pointed ? Or am I still not understanding this correctly ?

Each time the tool changer swaps tool regardless what type of haas changer you have. The machine stops the spindle, then commands a spindle orient. This makes the tool rotate so that the drive dogs of the spindle are always facing in the same direction. With the drive dogs safely facing in a known direction the tool changer can now grab the tool and swap it with another. This index of orientation for tool changing is at 0 degrees. Think if you looked up into the spindle nose and there were a degree wheel around it. When you pay for M19 spindle orientation you may command a position other than 0 for uses other than changeing out a tool. It will still index to the normal location for tool changes. If you have a boring head in the spindle you can operate the changer just as it normally would. The special use is this:

Let us say you have just bored a hole. The bar is at the bottom of the hole and the spindle is running. You stop the spindle motor with the M05 command. The spindle stops and the bar is at a random angle in relation to the 360° full rotation of the spindle. Now you command a M19. The spindle will orient to 0° tool change position. Let us say with you facing the machine the tip of the tool is facing to the left. You can now command the machine to move right X+ like this. G00 G91 X.05. At rapid rate in incremental the machine will move right 0.050". Now you can retract the tool from the bore with out dragging the tool tip over your nice shiny finish. If you set it up as described the tool will always orient facing left and your right move will put it out of harms way every time. When you want to change tool you command it just like any other. It orients again but it is of no consequence to you. You don't have to pay for spindle orientation to make this work. Spindle orientation just makes that easier.

(I thought SO meant the spindle head would actually TILT to some degree :withstupi )

Negative. The smallest machine I am aware of with a tilting head is the VR-8 starting out at $250,000

The main reason for my using probing would be setting tool and work offsets, that's about it.

Looks like SO is not so useful as I thought.

Probing is super neat. You can run lights out and have the machine check tools. You can do part inspection with the probe and print it out the parallel port. You can store probed data and remachine to meet tolerance all while you sit back and sip a cool drink. After of course you spend countless hours setting all this up. This is all fun but doesn't answer your question. Probing is cool, visual quick code makes probe cycle writing very easy for simple tasks, but its still expensive. I would skip the probe for now. You can always add it later. Save that money and spend it on tool holders and tooling. That stuff is wicked expensive and you have to have it. Spending money on tooling sucks but good tooling solves lots of headaches.

Phil

[kochevnik]

Phil : that's a very good point about the tooling - I had forgotten that (altho I know I shouldn't have).

For something like the TM-1P with the Cat 40, for the best toolholders, what would you recommend (anyone else feel free to chip in here too). How about a) if money were no object and b) a real world - who has the best tooling for a fair price kind of answer.

Thanks,
Matt