[J S Machine]

I've had my eye on the machines for a few years as a first cnc machine for my shop. I make knives and have a lot of plans for a cnc. I have been watching ebay and just browsing, but I have not hit the research too hard. I want to get started on this because I will be in a position soon to obtain one. I have talked on the phone briefly with some sales people at Tormach.

The truth is, there are so many options and bells and whistles, I'm not sure what I really need. Is there anybody here that can provide some input on what I should look for and what I can live without? I have tried to figure out a way to buy the machine without the stand, but I'm not sure I could fix up a place to put it.

I already have a selection of R8 tooling, so I am not worried much about that. I guess I could provide my own PC to run it. Also, I'm not sure if you can only get them new from Tormach or if they sold by any other outlets.

Thanks.

[CNC-Dude]

Well, I have bought both of mine used, so that is an option. BTW, my plan is to sell my second one in the upcoming months, once I retrofit it completely, so if you are close to TX, that could be an option for you.

When it comes to what buy and what don't buy, that will be a tough one. I wouldn't buy it without the stand because chances are you will want to use coolant and to make a stand which is coolant proof will most likely cost you as much as what theirs go for. One thing that you will learn with Tormach is that their stuff is really not ridiculously priced. That is, when you factor what it goes for, you really do not save anything by doing it yourself.

I use my own computer but that is only just because I get "free" computers with ease. That being said, I just bought their controller and it is really not that expensive (about $750) when you consider that buying all the parts will be something close to $750 anyway.

You will need tons and tons of tool holders. Luckily you can buy these at your leisure. I would get one of their TTS starting packs. Tool holders are not that expensive either, but they pile up eventually. What I do is to buy a couple every other month. Once you reach something like 40, you will be in good shape. Some people get addicted and prefer to get somewhere closer to a 100!

You can live without the Power Draw Bar, but it is quite possible you will be thinking about plunging a knife through your heart every time you need to change a tool.

The side stands for monitors and tool holders are a very nice addition but you can also live without these. They are not that expensive, though.

Forget about the Duality Lathe. Not certain what you would use it for knife making. but it is more of a toy than an actual tool. I had one and sold it without even trying to use it.

Not certain if you will need a fourth axis, but that is something you can always get later on.

One item which I think most knife makers use is the TOSA tool plate. Everybody will tell you is on the expensive side, but they will also tell you how it has saved their life.

I like the Tormach vise, but for years I used an old vise I got from the CL, so that is something which you can acquire at your convenience.

Hopefully there are enough pointers to get your ideas cranking.

[J S Machine]

Thanks for the input. I talked to a very nice guy here that pm' d me. We went over a lot of this stuff. I do think it is probably best to get the stand. I know the machine will be a lot more rigid with it. As far as the PC, what is so special about it? I plan to have dedicated PC for the machine; That is not a problem. I just noticed that they do not offer a whole lot of info about the one they have listed. I do know for sure that I can live without the power drawbar. It would be nice to have, but the main objective for me right now is to get the price down to as little as possible. I have two young children at home and this has been a dream of mine for a long time..I'm tired of talking about "Getting one some day" and coming up with every excuse as to why I can't. I may end up borrowing some money to get one, but I have pretty much decided that is probably ther only way I'll ever get one. Trying to save up for one has not worked out like I thought.

I had to go take a look at the Tosa Tool Plate. I have been a tool maker for over ten years..that would not be hard to make at all. I can't see where I would need one at the momoment, but any fixturing or tooling needed is easily made. I have tons of 123 and 246 blocks, angle blocks, v blocks, vises, etc. that I have made.

That duality lathe is interesting. I have a small bench lathe - and I can't remember the name of it, but is the exact same thing. I want to say SEIG, just like the SX2 bench mills. That is the one thing that got my attention when doing a little research. If you don't believe me, go look for yourself. I'm not sure what capabilities are different on the Tormach version, but I can bet you money that it coes out of the same factory in Taiwan that all the rest of those little mini lathes do. It kind of suprised me becuase I had understood Tormach manufactures all of their stuff.

Last but not least..I mentioned Ebay. That is the only place I have actively looked, but I swear they go for as much as a new one in most cases. I did see one go for right at $6K one time, and I think that may have been what got me thinking about used being an option. However, I have not seen one go for that cheap since then, and that was six months ago. They are $9k plus since. I just feel like if I am going to spend that, I might as well buy new.

[CNC-Dude]

As far as the PC, what is so special about it? I plan to have dedicated PC for the machine; That is not a problem. I just noticed that they do not offer a whole lot of info about the one they have listed.

There is nothing special about the machine. I have been using my PCNC1100 with my own PC for the past 4 years without a single hiccup (except one time when I didn't reboot the machine for over a week and all hell broke lose. Most likely Windows XP's fault). Do note that Tormach won't be able to help you with questions because they can't verify your controller. But I doubt you will have any issues.

That duality lathe is interesting. I have a small bench lathe - and I can't remember the name of it, but is the exact same thing. I want to say SEIG, just like the SX2 bench mills. That is the one thing that got my attention when doing a little research. If you don't believe me, go look for yourself. I'm not sure what capabilities are different on the Tormach version, but I can bet you money that it coes out of the same factory in Taiwan that all the rest of those little mini lathes do. It kind of suprised me becuase I had understood Tormach manufactures all of their stuff.

The Duality lathe is the same as the ubiquitous 7x10 lathe. Tormach did change the controller because they need to control spindle speed from within MACH3. If you are trying to acquire the machine with the least amount of money, the Duality Lathe is probably the item to skip.

Last but not least..I mentioned Ebay. That is the only place I have actively looked, but I swear they go for as much as a new one in most cases. I did see one go for right at $6K one time, and I think that may have been what got me thinking about used being an option. However, I have not seen one go for that cheap since then, and that was six months ago. They are $9k plus since. I just feel like if I am going to spend that, I might as well buy new.

When I sell mine, It will be well below $9K. My goal is to make a small profit once I factor in all I have spent. Considering this is a Series II machine, I can't pretend to sell it for what a Series III goes for.

[dbruins]

There is nothing special about the machine. I have been using my PCNC1100 with my own PC for the past 4 years without a single hiccup (except one time when I didn't reboot the machine for over a week and all hell broke lose. Most likely Windows XP's fault). Do note that Tormach won't be able to help you with questions because they can't verify your controller. But I doubt you will have any issues.

Tormach has a Service Bulletin SB0012_Control_Computers.pdf that's quite helpful.

It's pretty short, so here's the whole thing ...


File name: SB0012_Control_Computers.pdf
Rev: 1113A
Date: 11/18/2013
Product Identification: Computers for Controlling PCNC Mills

PLEASE NOTE!
While we continue to allow mill owners to use their own PC in order to offer the greatest possible economy, we also make a strong recommendation to use a Tormach Machine Controller. A proper computer and configuration is critical for dependable operation of your PCNC mill. Running with a computer that is not suitable is unlikely to damage your mill, but users may experience miscellaneous errors and poor cutting accuracy. Issues or problems related to a non-Tormach supplied control computer are the responsibility of the customer. The Tormach Machine Controller (TMC) can be found on our web site at Page Not Found | Tormach Inc. providers of personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items..

Background:
Many computers can be successfully configured for the PCNC (Mach 2/3) control software, however some cannot. The issues normally involve hardware or device drivers that generate interrupts, stealing time cycles from the background process that is critical to accurate and error free motion control. Recently we have observed that changes in PC component drivers and CPU architectures supplied by major manufacturers (Dell, HP, Lenovo, and others) have created serious problems for real time control programs such as Mach3, the program that operates the PCNC mills.

General Recommendations:
The recent trends within PC component drivers and CPU designs have made it impossible for us to provide general guidelines for computer selection. Problems have been cropping up across CPU series (Celeron, Pentium, Core II, Athlon, etc) as well as manufacturer models (Dell Optiplex 330, HP Presario SR 5710, Lenovo ThinkCentre A57, etc). The issues are not related to processing power or general computer performance, nor are they explicitly related to operating system (XP vs. Vista) although we continue to have a preference for XP. Faster processors, more memory, or multiple core CPU's do not resolve these issues. Computers supporting the Energy Star certification are less likely to operate correctly. The primary test for correct operation is a diagnostic program included with the Mach3 software called DRIVERTEST.EXE.

The computer should be at least 1 GHz. A parallel printer port is required. A USB to printer port conversion will not work. Earlier Intel Celeron, Pentium, or AMD processors have worked just fine. While 256MB memory will work, we normally suggest 512MB or more. We hear reports of multiple problems with Hyper-Threading technology CPUs from Intel, but that feature can usually be disabled. Problems are more prevalent on computers manufactured after 2007.

The operating system should be Windows XP, or Vista. XP Pro offers no advantage over XP Home, but we have found that XP has fewer problems than Vista. Certain accessories can create problems. Use game controllers, wireless keyboards, and similar devices at your own risk. We also observe a higher frequency of problems with Intel CPUs that incorporate Intel Core®1 microarchitecture. We suspect that AMD CPUs that incorporate the K82 microarchitecture have similar issues.

Do not use a laptop computer. Laptop computers use hard wired interrupts as part of their power management scheme. This steals CPU time and creates critical time slice errors. The machine control program may appear to run, but motion accuracy will
1 A list of Intel processors and the architectures used can be found at List of Intel microprocessors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2 A list of AMD processors and their features can be found at Comparison of AMD processors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specific Recommendations:
The following list has the Dell PCs that we have used in the past with success, along with some notes and comments. These models are no longer manufactured, but most can be purchased from a variety of sources such as off-lease vendors. We have no recommendations for current Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo, Gateway, Asus, or Compaq models.
- Dimension 1100: An older model that works just fine. The BIOS is older and does not recognize USB devices, but Windows does.
- Dimension B110: This appears to be a variant of the 1100. It works just fine; we have shipped quite a few of these configured as mill controllers.
- Dimension 5150: This model works but it does not have a printer port on the motherboard so it requires a printer port card.
- Optiplex GX520: Works fine.
- Optiplex 210L: We prefer the small form factor.
- Optiplex 310: We prefer the small form factor.
- Optiplex 320: We prefer the small form factor.

[J S Machine]

Difference between a series II and III?

[widget_maker]

Difference between a series II and III?

As far as I'm aware about $700 worth of motors and controllers.

[CNC-Dude]

There are some, but nothing where you would be like "Ah! A series II is like a kiddie bike and the Series III is like an Alien's FerraroGhini".

If I am not mistaken, the Series III uses 3 phase steppers (better known as polyphase steppers) whereas the Series II uses bipolar steppers. Apparently they have better motion quality and are less noisy. You can upgrade the motors on the Series II to polyphase for something like $650. I don't see what's the need to be honest, so I haven't done it.

The table is also slightly different. It has a cast iron tool tray area to place... Well, I am not certain what it is for but I don't think it is one of those things that will make you go "DARN IT!!!! Using this Series II is like impossible as compared to the Series III."

The panel was reorganized, but in essence you get the exact same thing just on a different place. I think it makes easier to add a power meter accessory.

And they also improved on the paint. The Series II paint may be adversely affected with coolant. This is why you see a bunch of Series II out there which almost looked like they were sand blasted. I have been using my first machine for 4 years and only the stand paint at the top and the coolant tank paint has come off. Everything else looks fine. I don't use my machine 8 hours a day, though. This also tells me the second machine was used even less, as the paint looks practically new!

As far as I know, everything else is in essence identical: work envelope, materials, action and execution. Tormach's brochure does state the Series III has "better positional resolution and improved linearity & repeatability" Everything I have done with the Series II has been so amazingly accurate I can't seem to justify paying anything to improve it. Maybe if I was looking to ensure all atoms are where they are supposed to be...

[adamvs]

I bought a used series-II, a local SF bay area guy was selling his after a year. There was lots of tooling and work holding, plus a SprutCAM licence and the forth axis ( which I haven't used yet after three years ), about 60 end mills, so it was a pretty good deal. Having CAM software is a good deal. I added the series-III motors, becuase they really are much quieter. I run this at home, so they kleep the neighbors happy. With the new motors you do get table movements to .0001.

One thing to look out for on a used machine is backlash. Factory backlash runs nominally about .0007 per axis. My X axis is .002, and beleive me, I've adjusted gibs and the angular contact bearings many, many times and can't seem to get rid it. The previous owner was doing short run production and I think the mill got beat on pretty good. If you buy one used, get a backlash report. My $.02.

[kstrauss]

A few suggestions/comments:
Ask Tormach for an introduction at a local reference site. Talking to an actual user (or two) will greatly improve your understanding of what is essential, optional and useless. If you explain your interests they will try to find someone in a similar situation.

The spindle is indeed R8 but traditional R8 tooling may not be the best choice for your work. Consider that advantages, disadvantages and costs of using TTS stuff. There is nothing really magic about TTS -- it is 3/4-inch shank tool holders that are gripped in an R8 collet. However, it does provide consistent tool lengths which speed running any job that uses multiple tools.

If money is tight you might consider a PCNC770 rather than the PCNC1100. The 770 has a smaller work envelope but a 10000 rpm spindle rather than ~5000 for the 1100. The cost for the 770 is somewhat cheaper.

Buying the Tormach controller makes for a turnkey and supported installation. It may be a few hundred dollars more than assembling a controller from components but you can plug it in and begin working. If you assemble your own you will need a Mach3 licence. If you want to run Tormach's version of LinuxCNC you will need a Mesa 6i25 card which costs about about $100. I am comfortable with computers but decided to spend a little more to spend less time configuring and troubleshooting.

With hindsight I should not have bought the coolant system for my 770 from Tormach. The coolant tank is too small, the pump is anemic and the splash guard is a joke.

If money is very tight you can get the power drawbar later. I didn't get it initially and have regretted my decision but it only takes money to recover from that mistake!

The automatic oiler is probably best ordered initially since it is cheaper that way.

Enough said. Give us a few details of the sort of work that you plan and you'll get lots of advice.

[CNC-Dude]

Buying the Tormach controller makes for a turnkey and supported installation. It may be a few hundred dollars more than assembling a controller from components but you can plug it in and begin working. If you assemble your own you will need a Mach3 licence.

KStrauss, as I understand, the MACH3 license is associated with the mill and not the controller.

Either way, if you buy an used machine, be certain to ask for the original CD (the license will be a file within this media).

I got lucky when I purchased my second PCNC1100 from a recycling center. I was able to contact the previous owner who eventually found the CD and facilitated it to me. If all fails, be sure to ask Tormach for a replacement. They were willing to help in the event I was never able to find the original CD.

[joeyjrc]

I bought the 770 and I love it. Here is what I purchased with it: stand, control computer, monitor and key board, shuttle jog controller, splash guard, coolant system, key board and monitor arm, coolant, lifting fixture. I'm glad I got it all, it all came to my door and I was making chips in a week. Awesome gift to myself and I make money with it too. I saved and paid cash for my machine, I think you should do the same, skim the money off the top of your paycheck every week, be patient, stay the course, while your saving money for it get on the website and read about it and dream of the day you can get yours, you will have enough sooner than you think and then you will enjoy your machine much more believe me.
Good luck.

[phoneman]

I too have a 770. I do not have splash guard or flood coolant or monitor arm. Built my own lifting fixture, could not see $90+ for the one they sell. I do have the 4th and love it. Have the 5C collet holder and collets for the 6" 4th. All total I think I spent around $12K cash for the machine.
I do lots of small end mill work and the 10K spindle is great.

Dave

[J S Machine]

Thanks for more comments guys. I can see myself doing a lot of small brackets out of aluminum mainly..just things like mounting brackets for things and other odds and end stuff. I also do a lot of engraving work in plastic and aluminum, some steel. that will be the misc. work for the machine. Otherwise, I will probably be making a lot of knife parts for it, like handle frames and individual pieces for folding knives. Not much in the way of cutting very hard steel, although I know the machine has the capability. The knives I build are made from Ti, Al, some steel, carbon fiber, and other different handle materials. The machine will not be used to set a huge 100lb block of steel in and cut 75lbs out of it.

I could see the 770, but I don't really see the need for a 10k rpm spindle. I just figured the bigger and better 1100 would be better, especially since it isn't that much more. I figure if I am going to spend that kind of money on a CNC, I might as well get the biggest and most capable. This will be like a car purchase to us. There may be some people out there that have that kind of money laying around, but I am not one of them. I have no debt other than a mortgage, but saving that much is difficult with a young family.

[CNC-Dude]

Well, a bunch of people here manage to make money with their machines to the point of not only paying for the machine in a little while, but also living out of it! So, if you are planning on monetizing the equipment, and know how to do it, getting it is the right thing to do. As a result, this will be the total opposite of buying a car. Buying a car usually implies you are immediately losing a few thousand dollars, whereas the Tormach is practically a gold digger!

Be aware, however, that there is a small group of us who have not made much of a cent with it. But that's just because we use it sporadically and not as the means to feed our family. So everything is possible, but it is not like it will pay for itself by just having it on your garage. And having two does not necessarily help ;-)

[kstrauss]

Depending on your work the 1100 isn't "better" than the 770. Yes, the 1100 has more horsepower and a larger work envelope. However, higher spindle speed and faster travels are very valuable if using small cutters and for work with plastics. Specified accuracies are similar for the two machines. The 770 runs on 110 volts while the 1100 requires 220 wiring. Most Tormach accessories such as the 4-axis, PDB and ATC are available for both machines. I have been delighted with my 770. To explain my biases, most of my work is producing small items in aluminum, brass and plastics for prototypes. I have no need to cut 75 lbs out of a 100 lb block of steel!

[rowbare]

I would budget for the PDB right off the bat. It is a lifesaver. As for the Duality lathe, I suspect that if you put out the word that you wanted to buy one, you would find a used one quickly enough.

bob

[popspipes]

The power drawbar is a real timesaver, I ofdered mine with the machine and it took me a year to get it installed, tool changes are not a pain anymore! I did get rid of that little switch assembly, it failed so I made up a more durable one with replaceable switches.

[J S Machine]

Can anybody explain exactly why changing tools is a pain? I just don't see the need for a power draw bar if I am not running the machine in a way where I need to be changing tools constantly. I have a little seig SX2 mini mill, and it has a manual tool change draw bar. I have never felt ill about having to change a tool. Of course I don't have a choice, but still..not an issue to me.

Now that you say the 770 ispretty capabale, I guess it is worth considering. One thing I do not have is 240 power, so I will have to run a line for that. With 120, I would not have to. So the 770 has faster travel speed?

[kstrauss]

Can anybody explain exactly why changing tools is a pain? I just don't see the need for a power draw bar if I am not running the machine in a way where I need to be changing tools constantly. I have a little seig SX2 mini mill, and it has a manual tool change draw bar. I have never felt ill about having to change a tool. Of course I don't have a choice, but still..not an issue to me.

Now that you say the 770 ispretty capabale, I guess it is worth considering. One thing I do not have is 240 power, so I will have to run a line for that. With 120, I would not have to. So the 770 has faster travel speed?

A PDB is only a convenience and not a necessity; I don't have one. One downside is that it is harder to change the belt with a PDB installed.

The max travel speeds on the 1100 are 110 IPM (X,Y) and 90 IPM (Z). For the 770 they are 135 IPM (X,Y) and 110 IPM (Z).