[CNC-Dude]

Hi Group,

The beauty about Open Source is that ANYBODY and EVERYBODY can have access to the content the community has worked on. Since Tormach is following this approach, I think we should take advantage of this opportunity.

Who is this for?

If you have Tormach's TMC, then you are OK. Tormach will support you and there is no need for you to monkey around with the computer or the SW.

If on the other hand you are like me and many others, and have your own computer, there is no way to get PP (unless you buy a TMC, of course).

If you want to be able to briefly customize the PP experience and add your own CNC flavor, then this may be the only way.

Implications:

What I am asking is to see if there is an interest to form a community group of OSPP (Open Source Path Pilot, which I am just going to code call Hack-Piper).

We would not bug Tormach with questions, as this would be our own endeavor and we realize they are already busy folks. The community group would be in charge of answering questions as they become available, with CNC Zone (or any other forum) most likely being the place to post/answer said questions.

Anybody with a computer could purchase the MESA card, download the Linux distributable with the Hack-Piper version and install it in their computer and at their own risk (low risk, though).

First Questions which would need to be answered:

1. Where is the repository where all of this Open Source code resides today?
2. What MESA card is being utilized?

I think there is tremendous potential for the community to make Hack-Piper happen. Come on Dudes and Dudettes!

[alan_3301]

Good idea.
I don't have a tormach, but would love to see the software, to play with and get ideas for my own linuxcnc applications.

I have never read the GNU GPL from top to bottom, but it seems that the whole of the software which included modified form of software under the GNU GPL license (LinuxCNC), must be available in source form,
for the price of copying / distribution (price of CD plus labor time to copy it)

It may be up to someone with a TMC already to document the hardware inside it, and distribute the software (Doesn't seem they would be breaking any laws).
It would be nice if tormach would host the software/source for all to access. I would gladly pay $2.99 for the bandwidth to download it from them,
They are machine builders after all, not a software company. I would never buy a tormach machine to get the software, but there is a tiny chance that the path pilot software experience, may lead to a tormach machine in my future.

[treyjugson]

If on the other hand you are like me and many others, and have your own computer, there is no way to get PP (unless you buy a TMC, of course).

This didn't take long. You can't be honest and pay Tormach for their hard work? This sure sounds like trying to pirate their software. I'll bet cnczone won't let allow this Hacking on their site.

[wendtmk]

This didn't take long. You can't be honest and pay Tormach for their hard work? This sure sounds like trying to pirate their software. I'll bet cnczone won't let allow this Hacking on their site.

It's not piracy if you are modifying open source software. That's the whole idea behind open source.

[Joe Jones]

" I would never buy a tormach machine to get the software, but there is a tiny chance that the path pilot software experience, may lead to a tormach machine in my future."


So a man spends a few days hitting and kicking his refrigerator, trying to make it work again.

finally, he gives up and called a repairman.

The repairman arrives, looks at the fridge, places his hands at ttwo different locations and kicks the refrigerator. It begins working perfectly.

"That will be $100.00, sir!" the repairman proclaims.

"$100.00 !!? For kicking the fridge?! I did that for several days myself! You just got lucky. that's all. I want an itemized bill!"

"Fine." said the repairman, and he wrote out an itemized bill:

"Kicking the refrigerator. - $5.00
Knowing WHERE to kick the refrigerator - $25.00
Knowing HOW HARD to kick the refrigerator - $70.00"

I know nothing about "Tormach" but I DO know that if they have put in the time and effort to develop a product and/or software that "everyone wants," it is probably worth the price.

[treyjugson]

It's not piracy if you are modifying open source software. That's the whole idea behind open source.

If Path Pilot is open source then why is it only provided to Tormach customers and why is this thread here to try to obtain a copy without paying for it?

" I would never buy a tormach machine to get the software, but there is a tiny chance that the path pilot software experience, may lead to a tormach machine in my future."


So a man spends a few days hitting and kicking his refrigerator, trying to make it work again.

finally, he gives up and called a repairman.

The repairman arrives, looks at the fridge, places his hands at ttwo different locations and kicks the refrigerator. It begins working perfectly.

"That will be $100.00, sir!" the repairman proclaims.

"$100.00 !!? For kicking the fridge?! I did that for several days myself! You just got lucky. that's all. I want an itemized bill!"

"Fine." said the repairman, and he wrote out an itemized bill:

"Kicking the refrigerator. - $5.00
Knowing WHERE to kick the refrigerator - $25.00
Knowing HOW HARD to kick the refrigerator - $70.00"

I know nothing about "Tormach" but I DO know that if they have put in the time and effort to develop a product and/or software that "everyone wants," it is probably worth the price.

Very well said sir.

[CNC-Dude]

I see some enthusiasm here in the Forum with regards to this project and I feel confident it is something we can get started. I have contacted Tormach and explained them my vision. I will let you guys know whether my idea represents a breach or not. I don't think it is, but I am halfway in reading the GPL V2 license so there might be a definitive clause I am missing.

Some of you guys have expressed an interest in playing with the code (Wizards, drivers, UI customization, etc). I am positive this is something we can eventually reach.

My first step, however, is to be able to take pretty much any viable computer and install the SW, install a MESA card and then run my PCNC1100 as I would with the Tormach TMC. It is still possible that there are some hardware dependencies which will render this endeavor close to fruitless. And although I am positive any hiccup can be overcome, that is precisely the point. We need to be able to get PP to run on most computers before we can start writing code and customizing the environment.

It is possible that this will just work and there will be little effort on this front. But let's not forget there is a trillion computer configurations out there and some of them will be a pain to work with. This is precisely why Tormach only wants to support one variant. Because they are not in the PC business. They are in the CNC machine business and dealing with mother board, CPU, chipsets, Hard Disks, BIOS' and all those idiosyncrasies has nothing to do with CNC.

Again, we can let the community take care of all of those issues and let Tormach do what they do best: create awesome CNC pieces of equipment!

[wtopace]

If on the other hand you are like me and many others, and have your own computer, there is no way to get PP (unless you buy a TMC, of course).

The question was asked last night in the webinar if Tormach will sell the card and software to white-box computer owners and Tormach responded by saying: Yes, they will sell you the kit, but they cannot possibly support each and every hardware configuration, so Tormach support will only be available for the TMC.

To me, this means if you want to pony up the $95, they should ship you a beta kit and let you fend for yourself.

Disclaimer: If you are a software guy with spare time and motivation, by all means get involved with LinuxCNC! I wish I wasn't always so burned out after my final commits at the end of the day for my real job =(

[CNC-Dude]

The question was asked last night in the webinar if Tormach will sell the card and software to white-box computer owners and Tormach responded by saying: Yes, they will sell you the kit, but they cannot possibly support each and every hardware configuration, so Tormach support will only be available for the TMC.

To me, this means if you want to pony up the $95, they should ship you a beta kit and let you fend for yourself.

Disclaimer: If you are a software guy with spare time and motivation, by all means get involved with LinuxCNC! I wish I wasn't always so burned out after my final commits at the end of the day for my real job =(

Intriguing... I thought I heard only people with one of the latest TMC's could acquire the upgrade. Will check directly with them and straighten this misconception of mine.

[tmarks11]

Intriguing... I thought I heard only people with one of the latest TMC's could acquire the upgrade. Will check directly with them and straighten this misconception of mine.

Daniel Rogge looked kind of unsure when he answered this question, and almost seemed to contradict himself, so maybe what he said was not the official line.

What I got out of it:
1. They will only sell the PP software to verified Tormach machine owners.
2. They will sell software to Tormach machine owners with homebrew computers, but will provide absolutely no after-sales support. Since they are charging $10, that isn't really "selling" in my book, more like giving away...
3. You can buy a 5i25/6i25 direct from Mesa, and the PP will download the right pin settings into it on startup.

I am not sure why you want a "Open Source" group for a commercial splinter of an Open Source project. Just join the LinuxCNC group.

The PP software as I understand it by the requirements of the LGPL license is not "Open Source". LGPL allows incorporation of open-source libraries into commerical proprietary code, and companies are not required to release source code for the proprietary components. Tormach is required to release the source code for any portions of the code that are modified/adapted from the open source code, and has met that obligation by releasing the trajectory planner improvements source code. Don't expect to see source code for the proprietary portions like the conversational screens, ATC, probing screens, etc.

The "Open Source" elements of PP will be in LinuxCNC releases; nowhere else.

[Methylethylketo]

Daniel Rogge looked kind of unsure when he answered this question, and almost seemed to contradict himself, so maybe what he said was not the official line.
The PP software as I understand it by the requirements of the LGPL license is not "Open Source". LGPL allows incorporation of open-source libraries into commerical proprietary code, and companies are not required to release source code for the proprietary components. Tormach is required to release the source code for any portions of the code that are modified/adapted from the open source code, and has met that obligation by releasing the trajectory planner improvements source code. Don't expect to see source code for the proprietary portions like the conversational screens, ATC, probing screens, etc..

The nice part of LinuxCNC is that most of the screens and stuff like the ATC are just python scripts and customized menus you can edit with the appropriate gnu software tools. 95% of what most people are going to want to dink with are things that are plain text, or near enough to not require extensive reverse engineering to uncover. Adding a 3 axis homing button, support for the vista pendants, more options in the conversational wizard, stuff like that.

Without clear delineation between the GPL/LGPL code sections and the proprietary config and UI changes Tormach did, it'll be hard to really determine what we can freely distribute as 3rd party addins, what we can distribute as entire distributions of the software, and what we'd be required to offer as an installable set of text file difs to modify tormach owned stuff that we can't redistribute in whole form.

[tmarks11]

Without clear delineation between the GPL/LGPL code sections and the proprietary config and UI changes Tormach did, it'll be hard to really determine what we can freely distribute as 3rd party addins, what we can distribute as entire distributions of the software, and what we'd be required to offer as an installable set of text file difs to modify tormach owned stuff that we can't redistribute in whole form.

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.

This means their derivative works also need to be open source. They have attorneys and they know the rules. If anything, Tormach could get into heated water if they don't release their code.

The LGPL allows linking open source libraries and compiling with proprietary code, and not releasing the proprietary code. Tormach has been very above board, including hosting a "summit" of some of the leaders of the LinuxCNC community to discuss development and licensing requirements. I think we have already seen the policy: PP will be offered to Tormach customers as proprietary software, any modifications/improvements to the LinuxCNC core components will be released to the linuxCNC community and available to everyone as a free download as part of normal LinuxCNC releases.

You want an ATC screen, conversational screens, probing, etc, feel free to start with released LinuxCNC code and build from there.

Someone should ban...

Just use the REPORT button at the bottom of the post, than hit the IGNORE user feature, and don't worry about it. Anything more just gets useful threads (like this one) locked.

[CNC-Dude]

Any act of illegality on this movement and I will be the first one to drop out of this movement. Here are the facts:

1. A system running Linux to control our Tormachs has way much more future than the Windows counterpart. At some point in time, we may be forced to move to the Linux environment no matter what.

2. I have no problem in paying Tormach what they deserve and if I ever buy a TMC I will be sure to pay, not to steal it. Do note that whatever I get from Tormach is what I will end up with. There will be no way to modify this. And it may be OK, but maybe it will not be OK. There are some areas which seem problematic, such as touch screens, support to other pendants, etc. And there is no way I can adapt to be network-less. I need my network!

3. People with our own computers (which is advantageous for many reasons) won't be able to enjoy from the PP offering. Let's face it! Tormach has already sold over 4000 machines and if there is even 10% of those with their own computers, that is 400 guys asking questions to Tormach who have not paid Tormach. Why would Tormach spend their time supporting us? I am amazed they still spend some of their time supporting us! But I am literally already "stealing" some of their time by asking questions on stuff that pertains to a computer they didn't sell me. BTW, I bet there is more than 10% of Tormach users who have their own computers, so in essence we are helping Tormach not having to deal with this mass of individuals.

4. If we form a community of users who can support this movement, then Tormach doesn't have to worry about us asking them questions on "this and this" feature.

I may be wrong on this one, but I don't think Tormach developed PP so they could profit on PP. They developed PP so they could profit from selling PCNC's. To try and sell a PCNC without a controller is an ill fated business model. Apparently Windows and MACH3 represented a series of problems which they might have solved with the Unix environment and LinuxCNC.

To create an Open Source movement to complement PP is not trying to steal Tormach business. If it is, I AM OUT! I will need to be proven that I am a potential thief by suggesting this course of action. I like Tormach as a company and I have nothing other than positive feelings towards the team, who has been helping me (WITHOUT HESITATION!) for the past 4 years, even when I didn't buy either of my machines directly from them.

My idea with this movement is to complement the offering, not to compete. I think there is a market for PP and those folks who want an embedded system they do not want to mess with. And then there is a market for those folks who want to have access to their system. But the responsible thing is for the later not to bug down Tormach with questions.

I also understand there is no way every body will agree with these points of view.

[wendtmk]

Path Pilot is LinuxCNC based. The fella that wrote the new trajectory planner for LinuxCNC also wrote the Path Pilot stuff.

Tormach Moves From Mach3 to LinuxCNC: PathPilot - CNCCookbook CNCCookbook

[CNC-Dude]

Just chatted with Tormach. They clarified that you can only purchase the upgrade if you own one of the latest TMC's.

They also told me that since PP is Open Source and in full compliance with the GPL, I can request a CD with the code.

It is possible, however, that anybody requesting the Open Source code won't be able to divulge the code. In that case, starting an Open Source group may be unlawful and rest assured I will not pursue (or endorse) such course of action.

I will continue discussions with Tormach and see where the boundaries lie.

I still think there is value in pursuing an Open Source group for tinkerers. But only if we are not endangering anybody's integrity and breaking the law in the process. Will keep the group posted.

[remartinez]

Just chatted with Tormach. They clarified that you can only purchase the upgrade if you own one of the latest TMC's.

They also told me that since PP is Open Source and in full compliance with the GPL, I can request a CD with the code.

It is possible, however, that anybody requesting the Open Source code won't be able to divulge the code. In that case, starting an Open Source group may be unlawful and rest assured I will not pursue (or endorse) such course of action.

I will continue discussions with Tormach and see where the boundaries lie.

I still think there is value in pursuing an Open Source group for tinkerers. But only if we are not endangering anybody's integrity and breaking the law in the process. Will keep the group posted.

So out of curiosity I called Tormach to try to see if I can buy the PP from them and basically they said no since I did not own one of their machines.
What is the truth on receiving a copy of their software? I have been a customer of Tormach for many years and they are a great company. I wish that I could afford one of their CNC machines.

It would be great if they make PP available to the public for someone like me who does CNC as a hobby and wants to move over from the Mach platform.


Great thread guys! Please keep it up!

[tmarks11]

It would be great if they make PP available to the public for someone like me who does CNC as a hobby and wants to move over from the Mach platform.

They do. It is called LinuxCNC...

[remartinez]

They do. It is called LinuxCNC...

Does it have a nice interface and have conversational programming like the one Tormach is putting out for their machines?

[tmarks11]

Does it have a nice interface and have conversational programming like the one Tormach is putting out for their machines?

There are several GUI people have wrote for them, some appear just as nice as what Tormach has come up with.

I don't know about the conversational programming, but I suspect we will see some LinuxCNC ones soon if they don't exist already.

[slowtwitch]

I've looked into the LinuxCNC GUI's and one of the things that seem to be missing are probing routines on the screen, which is very important to me. I've asked on their forums and I was told that the probing routine, like finding the center of a hole, needs to be put into your gcode. I really prefer just hitting a button ( like probe center), from a probing menu. The linux folks told me that a button can be created and all you have to do is write this code and @#$!#$%^&&&&& and pointed me to a Wiki how to......which is all foreign to me. I believe this is one of the problems with LinuxCNC. When a questioned is asked, people assume that you are fluid in Linux.

Looking at PP, it looks like they may have a probing routine setup...Hopefully, like with Mach, screen sets like this will be available for dummies like me