[SomeWhatLost]

I thought it interesting that one does not need to upgrade Tormach's most recent controller computer with the new cards. Does this mean that they have been shipping the machine controller board since last August?

Yes...

[pickled]

I am still waiting for a machine control platform for a few of my old boxes running OS2-Warp! All kidding aside, I run the Tormach boxes with their Windows ME platform. I'll probably test the newest one with the Path Pilot (not the coolest of names by the way) sometime this summer.

[RTP_Burnsville]

I have been using a IBM ThinkCentre, business class, small form factor, desktop PC for my Tormach control and it has worked very well.

Question: I have not really looked at the new control offering from Tormach but will their Linux version have the same hardware latency requirements as LinuxCNC? Just a word of caution before jumping into the pond with any old hardware configuration.

Robert

[CNC-Dude]

I have been using a IBM ThinkCentre, business class, small form factor, desktop PC for my Tormach control and it has worked very well.

Question: I have not really looked at the new control offering from Tormach but will their Linux version have the same hardware latency requirements as LinuxCNC? Just a word of caution before jumping into the pond with any old hardware configuration.

Robert

I don't think you can run their Linux version with any other hardware other than theirs. If I read their FAQ correctly, their control SW can only run with their Tormach Controller. Hence old hardware configurations are just not an option.

The reason for this is they appear to have prepared a special FPGA downloadable for the Mesa card.

Now the question is this: if Path Pilot contains the FPGA code, then just having the Linux distribution would do, as the machine would configure the FPGA after boot up.

Something tells me that's not how it works, though.

What follows next is highly conjectural:

I read somewhere that the MESA card Tormach is using is the 5I23. If so, this card has a XILINX FPGA which is most likely being programmed at startup with the code stored inside the Microchip EEPROM chip. Chances are that Tormach did their own version of the FPGA code and I imagine the only way to acquire such FPGA code is by purchasing a card from Tormach. This is how it should be done, anyway. Regardless, this may be perfectly fine, except the question now is, can you buy this card from Tormach? Considering they would be fools if they wanted to start answering questions caused by the trillions of possible PC computer internal component combinations, I would say the answer is no.

Conjecture ends.

The question remains: Is Tormach selling the card for vertureful (or perhaps I should say venturefool) folks?

[treyjugson]

You are not going to buy tormachs card unless you own a tormach, this has been stated in the other thread. That's how you keep it out of competitors hands, at least not without them buying a tormach first. If you look at the Path Pilot upgrade install pdf, one pic shows the new card. The board number is mostly obscured but you can clearly see the last digit, 5 and Mesa Superport. Best guess this is a special 5125 for Tormach as the pics on Mesas site have nothing exactly the same. Do note that Tormach is charging less for the card with the Path Pilot software than Mesa charges for just a 5125.

[tmarks11]

Best guess this is a special 5125 for Tormach as the pics on Mesas site have nothing exactly the same. Do note that Tormach is charging less for the card with the Path Pilot software than Mesa charges for just a 5125...Do note that Tormach is charging less for the card with the Path Pilot software than Mesa charges for just a 5125

Since it also has the label "SuperPort" on it, that means either the 5i25 or 6i25.

Tormach is selling both..5i25 for PCI ports and 6i25 for PCI-E ports.

If you look at the price break that Mesa is offering, you can see Tormach is just passing some of that savings on to the customer. 5i25 in quantities of 100 are $64... Tormach is selling it with the software for $85.

What follows next is highly conjectural...If so, this card has a XILINX FPGA which is most likely being programmed at startup with the code stored inside the Microchip EEPROM chip. Chances are that Tormach did their own version of the FPGA code and I imagine the only way to acquire such FPGA code is by purchasing a card from Tormach....Conjecture ends.

Not conjecture at all. Reading the Mesa Superport instruction manual, it states what you said.... the FPGA code is stored in the EEPROM, and loaded when the card is powered on. Additionally, programming of the EEPROM requires use of their JTAG cable connected to the P1 programming connector on the card... so there is no way that PathPilot "configures" the card on boot up with the right firmware.

Anyone who buys this care from Meas and thinks it will work with their Tormach without some work puzzling out how to adapt/reprogram the firmware to match with the pinouts on the Tormach BOB will probably be disappointed. Mesa sells this board with a number of different stock firmwares, allowing it to be paired with a specific daughter BOB. I suspect Mesa supplies it to Tormach with a custom build. Probably not too much different, but enough that "plug and pray" won't work. And since Tormach's documentation, while pretty exhaustive, doesn't get into sufficient details of their BOB pinouts, trying to write your own firmware might be an exercise in futility (unless reverse engineering is something you do as part of your day job).

It will be interesting to see if Tormach starts building their next generation of controller as a more modern computer. My July 2014 model isn't that ancient... only a couple generations old (1155 CPU on H61M motherboard).

Any LinuxCNC experts chime in with what you need in a computer to make LinuxCNC dance? 1 GB of memory enough? 2.9GHz Pentium CPU?

[treyjugson]

Since it also has the label "SuperPort" on it, that means either the 5i25 or 6i25.

Tormach is selling both..5i25 for PCI ports and 6i25 for PCI-E ports.

If you look at the price break that Mesa is offering, you can see Tormach is just passing some of that savings on to the customer. 5i25 in quantities of 100 are $64... Tormach is selling it with the software for $85.

Yes, a very upstanding thing on their part, no price gouging on something that they could/should? do if it was only about the benjamins. Very above board.

[CNC-Dude]

You are not going to buy tormachs card unless you own a tormach, this has been stated in the other thread.

Yes, I understand this, but I am not talking about whether I own a Tormach machine or not (e.g. PCNC 1100 or 770). I am talking whether I own a Tormach controller or not.

But I found their card webpage and I now know how to answer my question. According to their website, only people who have bought one of the latest Tormach Controllers, can opt to try the upgrade. And it has to be a recent controller as if it is too old, they won't be able to support it.

I am OK with waiting. I am just curious on the new platform, but it is not like my productivity is at a halt because of what I have.

[Bryan Turner]

tmarks11,

I agree with most of this analysis, but I believe that they are not performing significant reprogramming of the card. If I understand the process, the Tormach still connects to the controller with the existing Parallel Port cabling. So unless I missed the part where you are replacing a part of the control cabinet of the Tormach with a new interface/breakout board, then the outputs of the machine controller must match the existing inputs of the Tormach - which today is just the parallel port pinout.

Also, the documentation says the Mesa card is software programmable. So JTAG programming is not required, and Tormach can update the pinouts with new versions of Path Pilot.

--Bryan

[PCW_MESA]

tmarks11,

Also, the documentation says the Mesa card is software programmable. So JTAG programming is not required, and Tormach can update the pinouts with new versions of Path Pilot.

--Bryan

That is correct, only initial programming is done with JTAG, firmware changes are done in-system with a utility

[SCzEngrgGroup]

tmarks11,

I agree with most of this analysis, but I believe that they are not performing significant reprogramming of the card. If I understand the process, the Tormach still connects to the controller with the existing Parallel Port cabling. So unless I missed the part where you are replacing a part of the control cabinet of the Tormach with a new interface/breakout board, then the outputs of the machine controller must match the existing inputs of the Tormach - which today is just the parallel port pinout.

Also, the documentation says the Mesa card is software programmable. So JTAG programming is not required, and Tormach can update the pinouts with new versions of Path Pilot.

--Bryan

The Mesa cards use parallel port connectors, and parallel port pinouts for external connections, but that is where the similarity ends. Unlike a parallel port, the Mesa cards are capable of generating step pulses in hardware (in the FPGA). This one feature is what makes them vastly less susceptible to the vagaries of PC internal timing that make a real parallel port so problematic on modern PCs. They also provide far MORE I/Os than a parallel port, with each of the 30+ individual I/Os being programmable as an input or output. Whether Tormach is actually loading their own custom logic into the FPGA is impossible to say, based on the very limited information available. Personally, I can't imagine why they'd need to, but they perhaps found a good functional reason, or they may well have done it only to make this a Tormach-only solution, to prevent people from trying to use PathPilot on non-Tormach PCs and machines.

Regards,
Ray L.

[kstrauss]

I have a fairly recent Tormach control computer (PCI-E slot) but I'd like to keep my Mach3 setup in case of problems. That means that I need another SATA drive. Another 250GB is essentially the same price as a 1TB disk. Also, I can get a 120GB SSD for not much more money. Any idea whether a SSD or larger hard disk will pose problems?

[treyjugson]

Personally, I can't imagine why they'd need to, but they perhaps found a good functional reason, or they may well have done it only to make this a Tormach-only solution, to prevent people from trying to use PathPilot on non-Tormach PCs and machines.

Regards,
Ray L.

Makes perfectly good sense to me to keep the competition from benefiting from all the work they've put into this and keep it In-house so to speak. They are under no obligation to make it available to any non-tormacher, why would they need PathPilot with it's Tormach ATC page anyway. Nontormachers can and do use the Mesa cards and the generic Linuxcnc release. Tormachers that don't want to pay for Tormachs controller can save a few bucks and do the same, the key here is that one way comes with support and customer service, the other doesn't. Well worth the money IMO.

[tmarks11]

I have a fairly recent Tormach control computer (PCI-E slot) but I'd like to keep my Mach3 setup in case of problems. That means that I need another SATA drive. Another 250GB is essentially the same price as a 1TB disk. Also, I can get a 120GB SSD for not much more money. Any idea whether a SSD or larger hard disk will pose problems?

I just went through that thought process, and ended up buying another 1 TB drive to replace the existing 320GB drive in my Tormach Controller to load PathPilot on.

Can't see any reason why the drive size would make a difference, and I couldn't see any reason to buy a smaller drive. I thought about an SSD, which would give you an advantage from boot time, but decided against it in the end.

[mountaindew]

I thought about an SSD, which would give you an advantage from boot time, but decided against it in the end.

I like ssd drives because they have no moving parts

[kstrauss]

There are many online articles suggesting special setup actions if installing to a SSD. I'm concerned that a SSD might give more pain than gain.