[tmarks11]

My post about the new tormach control software is not speculation. I was told about it in Wednesday directly.

Awesome. I hadn't realized that you were reporting news instead of speculating as that rest of us were. Is this a linuxcnc variant, or a mach3 upgrade?

As exciting as the news of the new control software is, I hope they have some machinery to announce as well..

If they offer new software (DVD) wouldn't I have to update the controller (CPU) to Lunix vs the Windows OS?

That could be done with a CD, which would wipe out the old OS and install the new. You would boot the computer on the CD (instead of the installed HDD), and let it do its thing. Of course, it is a bit more complex than that, but not super difficult.

[LeeWay]

I wonder if tormach will come out with a rigid tapping kit then... (linuxcnc would just require an encoder connected to the spindle) (assuming a bunch...)

sam

Just an encoder won't do I don't think.
The motor really needs a lot of low speed torque and be able to stop and reverse instantly.
That said, you can buy taps that have a narrow neck.
If all your threads are in thinner material, then the tap may be able to freewheel on the tap at that point, then reengage on the reverse way out. The taps that I have like that are thread forming taps.
In that case, all you would need would be correct feed and speed.

Of all the parts I tap, only one could use that setup though. That part can be tapped with a hand drill quicker than by machine.

[samco]

Well - people are tapping with tapping heads - right? No real difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz9hWo7TIm0

You just would not need a tension/compression head.

sam

Just an encoder won't do I don't think.
The motor really needs a lot of low speed torque and be able to stop and reverse instantly.
That said, you can buy taps that have a narrow neck.
If all your threads are in thinner material, then the tap may be able to freewheel on the tap at that point, then reengage on the reverse way out. The taps that I have like that are thread forming taps.
In that case, all you would need would be correct feed and speed.

Of all the parts I tap, only one could use that setup though. That part can be tapped with a hand drill quicker than by machine.

[LeeWay]

Well - people are tapping with tapping heads - right? No real difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz9hWo7TIm0

You just would not need a tension/compression head.

sam

There is a real difference between rigid tapping and anything else. Rigid tapping just uses an TTS Er holder with a tap collet and a tap. No springs, no clutches. The servo spindle operates it completely.

I would venture to say that if you have a spindle motor operated by a VFD, then you can't really rigid tap.

[jcposada]

My post about the new tormach control software is not speculation. I was told about it in Wednesday directly.
Best
Nathan

Can you say whether Autodesk was brought up at all in the context of that discussion?

The Fusion 360 guys have referred to some sort of collaboration happening in their training videos and webinars. Maybe it's been just around developing the post processor - although it sounded to me like more.

[R.DesJardin]

There is a real difference between rigid tapping and anything else. Rigid tapping just uses an TTS Er holder with a tap collet and a tap. No springs, no clutches. The servo spindle operates it completely.

I would venture to say that if you have a spindle motor operated by a VFD, then you can't really rigid tap.

Well our big VMC uses a floating tap holder not that much different than what Tormach sells. I use Tormach's Floating Tap Holder all the time for tapping holes on my PCNC1100's. Having a servo spindle motor would give you the ability to tap all the holes with exactly the same start lead location. No really needed that much in general machining.

CADRhino did Tormach tell you to discuss what you have said is the news????????????

[kirk_wallace]

A system of rigid tapping has been a fairly well established part of LinuxCNC for quite a while. Of course, LinuxCNC may or may not have a bearing on this discussion -- I couldn't say.

The LinuxCNC version of rigid tapping needs to have a spindle encoder with decent resolution, say 20 counts per revolution can work. When in the rigid taping mode the Z feed is tied to the spindle position count, effectively gearing the Z feed to the spindle rotation angle. No matter what the spindle does, the Z feed will follow the pitch of the tap. You can have a VFD that reacts quickly or slowly or even tap by turning the spindle by hand. The are limits though. One can not tap at high speeds that are beyond the position following limits of the Z axis. The Z axis cannot change speed instantly, so it's wise to give the start of a hole a little room for the Z axis to synchronize with the spindle (BTW, the Z motion triggers on the index pulse, then lcnc calculates where the Z can meet the spindle at full Z acceleration, then shoots for that position, from then on it's sync'd). At the end of the hole, even Tormach's VFD can not reverse speed fast enough to produce significant following error. On the other hand, though a slowly reacting VFD may prevent following error, it can also have the tap continue down the hole a turn or two more than desired.

Again, rigid tapping depends on the spindle having an encoder with position (A and B phase) and index signals.

Also, there has been some chatter recently that even with rigid tapping, using a semi-rigid tap holder can increase tool life, as opposed to using a floating holder, or a fully rigid tool holder. The semi-rigid holder makes sure the tap starts cutting as soon as it touches the workpiece, but gives enough in case the tap wobbles slightly or doesn't start exactly in the center of the hole.

So far, the common Tormach procedure is to use a floating holder and have the g-code tailored to feed Z at a rate calculated from the tap pitch and selected spindle speed. With proper attention to the code, it keeps the the tap within the travel limits of the holder. This works more than well enough in most cases, so rigid tapping on a Tormach (beefy Z axis, quick reacting, accurate VFD) may not be justified.

That's just my take on it.

[samco]

that is not true. You can rigid tap with a vfd and a spindle encoder.. That is how a lot of vmc's do it. They sync the axis to the spindle encoder. (and I am doing it on our K&T)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlW1s2BNixo

^ That is using a vfd

There is a real difference between rigid tapping and anything else. Rigid tapping just uses an TTS Er holder with a tap collet and a tap. No springs, no clutches. The servo spindle operates it completely.

I would venture to say that if you have a spindle motor operated by a VFD, then you can't really rigid tap.

[flatsix66]

Can you say whether Autodesk was brought up at all in the context of that discussion?

The Fusion 360 guys have referred to some sort of collaboration happening in their training videos and webinars. Maybe it's been just around developing the post processor - although it sounded to me like more.

I heard that the Fusion360 CAM folks may be doing classes at Tormach or for Tormach, and it hints to some sort of collaboration as well.

[daniellyall]

I heard that the Fusion360 CAM folks may be doing classes at Tormach or for Tormach, and it hints to some sort of collaboration as well.

that would make a good reason to get a tormach if they lined up with autodesk if you got fusion at a lower price that is, or is auto desk buying out tormach since they seem to be buying up other cad companys why not go to machines as well

[LeeWay]

that is not true. You can rigid tap with a vfd and a spindle encoder.. That is how a lot of vmc's do it. They sync the axis to the spindle encoder. (and I am doing it on our K&T)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlW1s2BNixo

^ That is using a vfd

Those spindle motors and VFD's probably cost more than most of our machines. I do admit that I was wrong about it with that kind of blanket statement. Just that most of our VFD motors need a braking resistor to get them to slow down quickly. I don't tap any blind holes yet, but will on my next saw part that I am making. It will need a 3/8 16 in Stainless steel tapped about an inch deep. I wonder if a Tormach sized machine would have enough torque to tap that slowly in rigid tap configuration? It would get dicey in a blind hole as well. I use 150 RPM for all my taps.I don't tap anything larger than 3/8" yet, but if I did I would thread mill it. I think 3/8" is the edge of the rigid tapping envelop on my smaller mill.
I actually bought a tapping head at one time before I got this mill. I wound up selling it without ever using it.
We probably tap 4 to 5 hundred holes of different sizes every week. We used to do all that by hand.

Another plus about rigid tapping is that the tools are very ATC friendly.

[Hirudin]

Yeah, moving to a LinuxCNC-based controller would be a very wise decision. Mach3 isn't the most stable software and the Tormach version is crippled. That makes users have to choose between* the recommended, crippled controller and a potentially buggy one. By moving to LinuxCNC they can offer their customers a more stable** controller that is geared to their own machines. Having a unique controller interface will also help retain customers because switching to a competitor's Mach3-based machine will also necessitate learning a different controller. "Upgrading to our other machine is EASY because it has the same user-interface!" would probably be an effective sales-pitch. LinuxCNC will save them money on Windows licenses as well (I would imagine) and I bet they'll pass the savings on to the themselves. ;p Plus, rigid tapping being an option opens the door to a "servo-spindle upgrade kit" which could also drive sales. "Hey, most people don't need it, but if you decide to go that route you can always upgrade later."

* well, I guess users could also choose option C: go-it-alone and replace the controller with something else entirely
** apparently

[kirk_wallace]

LeeWay,

I happened to find these links for 3/8-16 tap and stainless steel:
Tapping 304 stainless steel - Industrial Forum - eMastercam.com
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ess-steel.html

My concern with thread milling is that it would be slow and you seem to have a lot of holes.

Technically, the Tormach mill doesn't do rigid tapping, just tap-holder (floating) and tapping head (Procunier)

It looks like if you get your holes tapped, you'll be the resident expert.

[LeeWay]

LeeWay,

I happened to find these links for 3/8-16 tap and stainless steel:
Tapping 304 stainless steel - Industrial Forum - eMastercam.com
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ess-steel.html

My concern with thread milling is that it would be slow and you seem to have a lot of holes.

Technically, the Tormach mill doesn't do rigid tapping, just tap-holder (floating) and tapping head (Procunier)

It looks like if you get your holes tapped, you'll be the resident expert.

Thanks for the link.
I don't even own a thread mill yet, but will eventually have one in my tool corral.
As for being an expert, maybe Sheldon Cooper is an expert. Steven Hawking is one. I just have a lot of mileage screwing around. Then unscrewing. Rinse and repeat.
Have I mentioned that I actually love rigid tapping?

[CNC-Dude]

Joining he conversation late, but have to say that after reading the responses:

1. I hope it is not a CNC Plasma or Router. Feels like developing Ferraris and then switching to kiddy bikes.

2. A new controller? Hmmm... Doesn't seem like the announcement you start to push a week earlier. But if that's it, then oh well...

3. Being acquired by Autodesk? Now that would be an announcement! Except that I am not certain you are allowed to spill any information when acquisitions of that sort are taking place. Could be mistaken on such corporate logistics. This would be mind blowing though! And it wouldn't surprise me too much, although it would be kind of sad as for all practically purposes Tormach would be dead. Even if they continue with the name, it will be something completely different.

4. A laser or waterjet? That would be quite the step up! I have been wondering about home based waterjets but I hear they are not that trivial endeavor.

5. 3D printing. That would be sad! There is just too many 3D printers makers out there. Would sound kind of desperate and it is my impression these guys are doing very well; why bother with going into an overpopulated market?

6. A 5 axis machine. This could also be quite the step up! Although to be honest, how many people here have been stopped on their tracks because what they want to make can only be done with a 5 axis machine? Seems kind of nichy, won't you say?

7. An EDM. Yet another awesome piece of equipment the home based shop could benefit from!

I truly hope this is not one of those cases like IT. Do you remember when Dean Kamen promised that a year after he was going to CHANGE THE PLANET??? Then the Segway comes out and yup! The planet changed all right! It went from a planet filled with people blowing up in anticipation and "what the heck are you going to unveil???" to a planet filled with a bunch of pissed inhabitants saying "WHAT? IS THAT IT???"

Luckily we only have to wait one week and that is almost halfway ;-)

[daniellyall]

could you replace the motor with a bigger 3 phase motor simaler size more HP.
milling on my little X2 suck compared to using my dads big mill it has a 5 hp 3 phase motor .5 mm compered to 5 mm

[tmarks11]

3. Being acquired by Autodesk? Now that would be an announcement! Except that I am not certain you are allowed to spill any information when acquisitions of that sort are taking place. Could be mistaken on such corporate logistics. This would be mind blowing though! And it wouldn't surprise me too much, although it would be kind of sad as for all practically purposes Tormach would be dead. Even if they continue with the name, it will be something completely different.

Seems a bit out of Autodesk's swim lane. They like to make their money by selling software, some of which has an annual subscription price of more than a new Tormach....

But I could see Tormach announcing a Fusion 360 partnership. Autodesk seems to be working overtime to try to promote this [beta] software to hobbyists, and getting Tormach to offer it (alongside of or instead of SprutCAM) would be a big win for Autodesk as they open up a new customer base; probably a win for Tormach as well as they would probably get a good discount.

[daniellyall]

Fusion cant bet the tool paths on SprutCam yet will in a year or two.

it would be silly for them to drop sprut unless its because of where sprut comes from (us government rules) thats just bs anyway.

the only reason I don't have a tormach yet is the size of the motor and table size you can get bigger else where for similar money but if they had software that worked properly all the time that's a game changer.
I hate having to chase down faults on machines been trying to find one for 3 years on a router found where it is but not what the fault is

[CadRhino]

I am just reporting what came up in a phone call and I assume this is the big thing. I was not authorized or cautioned to not mention it.
I don't know if auto desk engineers are helping with the development and tormach may be having some more hardware coming out too.
Oh, ya, also the series 4 is coming out too ( just kidding)

Awesome. I hadn't realized that you were reporting news instead of speculating as that rest of us were. Is this a linuxcnc variant, or a mach3 upgrade?

As exciting as the news of the new control software is, I hope they have some machinery to announce as well..


That could be done with a CD, which would wipe out the old OS and install the new. You would boot the computer on the CD (instead of the installed HDD), and let it do its thing. Of course, it is a bit more complex than that, but not super difficult.

[mountaindew]

A new mill controller leveraging the effort put into the lathe controller would be logical, but as others have said not big news imho.

md

They are going to be launching their own proprietary control software and will be transitioning away from mach.
The new siftware will be comparable with all series and has been in beta for a while
Hurray
I have been getting to know mach,s bugs too well as of late.
Best
Nathan

My post about the new tormach control software is not speculation. I was told about it in Wednesday directly.
Best
Nathan

Imho from a business standpoint this was logical and almost required!
First off the controller looks to be a high margin sales item.
Windows o.s. system morphs to much to get a solid base and xp is all but gone so no drivers for future md designs or hardware. (end of life)
Mach I guess has an unacceptable development cycle and or is also hard to pin down.
Something they can sell, support and control I think would help their product or products

As I mentioned above leverage the work they put into their lathe software kernel this could provide conversation mill operations combined with cam code in a more controlled interface and workflow.
Again making the mill a more useful all around tool and stop people like me from calling it a paper weight without good cam software!

In truth I have 0.00 experience with the Linux cnc lathe system and was going by pictures and the fact nobody complains about it.
This also deters wanabe computer gurus like me from using any old computer for a controller and they could end up kind of supporting it in a way.

Some comments from the cheap seats
md



Edit: added note on autodesk corp. and fusion or autocad ....................................!
I can only hope the companies are working together for the purpose of teaching and or maybe a custom program with high end features locked to a smaller machine and offered at a more inviting price point. High end Cam options are few below the 2k$ mark. I see some of the reason as a large company doing millions of dollars in business per year would not even notice a 4k$ to 20k$ cost for cam or cad. On the other hand a limited startup or prototype business would find it difficult to swallow this. The problem is they both need and benefit from these software tools. As one person noted about Autodesk buying tormach, while this would be $ for greg and others it would waste imho a very good and well run company. I have not looked at the financials, but would estimate autodesk "public traded company" could buy tormach and it would not even be a blip on its balance sheet .