[LRF]

After running my Tormach 1100 with ATC for more then 15 months in production I have decided not to use the ATC anymore and go totally manual on tool changes. There are a number of reasons; however the first and foremost is that it is just to slow on the tool changes. (there is also a blood pressure issue with it's not so perfect reliability; but that is not the primary reason)
Generally my programs use between 4 and 8 tools and longest program cycle time currently is 16 minutes. Tool changes (stop cut to start cut) are aprox 23 to 25 seconds. Manually I can do the same thing in more like 12 (including the Tormach spindle spool up): 23-12*8 tool changes = 88 or 1min 28sec lost for tool changes on a run of 100 parts that is 2.4 hours lost productivity to the ATC @ shop rate that is real money

I would like to see Tormach offer a faster and more long term reliable ATC option.

[Steve Seebold]

I can't say anything negative about the ATC as I don't have one on my machine. I've had mine since July 2011 and the ATC wasn't available when I bought it. I first saw the ATC at an open house at Little Machine Shop near the end of October the same year.

Like LRF mentioned, most of my work requires 3 to 6 tools and I have one job that requires 9. I only run the 9 tool job about 3 times per year, and it takes about 27 minutes to make each part. No it's not the ideal set up, but it works for me.

I have my cad/cam computer right next to my machine so I can design and program new jobs and parts while the machine runs, and if I don't want to do that, then I have a 46 inch TV right above the computer monitor.

My main parts are running gear for gas powered remote control race boats. I started making my own because the stuff that's available out there is not up to my expectations.

[Ken_Shea]

What I see of the tool change is that the actual tool change operation is decently fast but the move into position and back to machining operation that is SOOOOOO slow, it's painful to watch.
My suspect is that is set by Tormach for safety reasons because it is an open machine for hobbyist, (and thats not completely without good reasoning), any chance there is a parameter setting that can be changed to increase that speed or if there is a built in delay like my Haas TM-1 default settings had originally ?

[CadRhino]

I have an ATC but have not used it yet since my work has been prototypes and I have been learning.
Can you tLk about some of the reliability issues you have been having. I am ready to start using the ATC and would appreciate hearing about your experiences.
Thanks
Nathan

After running my Tormach 1100 with ATC for more then 15 months in production I have decided not to use the ATC anymore and go totally manual on tool changes. There are a number of reasons; however the first and foremost is that it is just to slow on the tool changes. (there is also a blood pressure issue with it's not so perfect reliability; but that is not the primary reason)
Generally my programs use between 4 and 8 tools and longest program cycle time currently is 16 minutes. Tool changes (stop cut to start cut) are aprox 23 to 25 seconds. Manually I can do the same thing in more like 12 (including the Tormach spindle spool up): 23-12*8 tool changes = 88 or 1min 28sec lost for tool changes on a run of 100 parts that is 2.4 hours lost productivity to the ATC @ shop rate that is real money

I would like to see Tormach offer a faster and more long term reliable ATC option.

[jid2]

These sorts of awareness are what help to start doing the math on whether a proper VMC is a better fit. Tormach is a perfect fit for a lot of applications. When you start running repeated parts you get a good understanding of the complete process.

[LRF]

CadRhino,
1. The tool tray of the ATC is keyed to the motor shaft with a set screw. Make sure it is tight and then back it up with another lock set screw and use lock-tite on it. The blue stuff is the lip stick type dispenser works fine
2. Make sure you take care to align the tool tray to be perpendicular to the spindle as perfectly as you can in both X & Y.
3. Make sure you use the collet specified for the ATC. It is sprung to open .005" to .007" over the nominal 3/4". This clearance is essential
4. Overtime the collet can change and for some reason tighten up which reduces the open of .005" minimum. If it does it won't slide over the toolholder and will break the nylon bolts holding the tool tray yoke. CRASH BANG damaged tool, damage work piece. 30 mins to hours fixing it all.

Now when I say reliability I am not implying that crashes are common because they are not. However just one wastes time, costs lost productivity and raises the blood pressure cause you are always waiting for the next crash.

Manual tool changes are 100% perfect and save time the first premise of this writing

[LRF]

CadRhino, one other point, if using flood coolant it can get up inside the motor housing and cause problems. This did not happen to me but a friend who also uses his Tormach for production along with his VMC.
It's a maintenance issue but still is downtime.

[CadRhino]

Thanks for the insight.
I bought the atc so I could multi task while running parts so I don't mind if it a little slower than manually changing. Reliability in the other hand is very important to me.
The one thing I have not figured out yet us how to position/fix the coolant nosels so it effective with all the tools I will be using. Right now I have to manually adjust it for every tool.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

CadRhino, one other point, if using flood coolant it can get up inside the motor housing and cause problems. This did not happen to me but a friend who also uses his Tormach for production along with his VMC.
It's a maintenance issue but still is downtime.

[treyjugson]

I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

that's a ridiculous expectation and foolhardy to boot even if you had a brand new brother vmc, did you not see what can happen in the insurance thread and that was with someone in the area of the shop. if you need parts running while you sleep, pay someone to babysit it because you never know what can happen.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Thanks for the insight.
I bought the atc so I could multi task while running parts so I don't mind if it a little slower than manually changing. Reliability in the other hand is very important to me.
The one thing I have not figured out yet us how to position/fix the coolant nosels so it effective with all the tools I will be using. Right now I have to manually adjust it for every tool.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

Absent a programmable coolant nozzle that tracks tool length, I think the best you can do is to have several nozzles, aimed at different locations, to cover the range of positions needed for each job. With a high-flow pump, having 40 or more nozzles should not be a problem.

Regards,
Ray L.

[popspipes]

Thanks for the insight.
I bought the atc so I could multi task while running parts so I don't mind if it a little slower than manually changing. Reliability in the other hand is very important to me.
The one thing I have not figured out yet us how to position/fix the coolant nosels so it effective with all the tools I will be using. Right now I have to manually adjust it for every tool.
Anyone have any suggestions on this?
I would ultimately like to be confident in a setup and have my machine running parts through the night while I am sleeping.

Thanks
Nathan

I really dont trust mine to run with no operator, every so often I get to trusting Mach/windows, then it lets me down and does something definitely not in the program!! I read about it on other forums, but its not for me.......

edit: I do all my machining in the vise, in my opinion there is more time to shut it down if it should decide to bore into the table............

[treyjugson]

These sorts of awareness are what help to start doing the math on whether a proper VMC is a better fit. Tormach is a perfect fit for a lot of applications. When you start running repeated parts you get a good understanding of the complete process.

how many parts does it take to recoup the huge price difference?

[philbur]

how many parts does it take to recoup the huge price difference?

It's not the number of parts that recoups the cost it's the number of man-hours available to perform other productive activities.

Phil

[treyjugson]

It's not the number of parts that recoups the cost it's the number of man-hours available to perform other productive activities.

Phil

i was asking jid2 how many parts it takes to recoup the cost difference between a tormach and vmc like his brother, it's got nothing to do with man hours to do things while the atc handles tool changes vs manually changing tools.

[jid2]

i was asking jid2 how many parts it takes to recoup the cost difference between a tormach and vmc like his brother

It depends of course. Each person has to do the math for their situation, for me it's in the hundreds of parts, not the thousands.

[keen]

It's not the number of parts that recoups the cost it's the number of man-hours available to perform other productive activities.

Phil

I agree again! I have been thinking this while running a job that I know is an inefficient programme and I could cut the machining time in half....but it doesn't matter as the long run time allows me enough time to run another machine and cut/machine/prep the stock etc. The Tormach just sits there until I have made the stock etc anyway. Of course this situation varies from job to job. For my toolmaking work machining time doesn't really matter either though as it is a one off 'part' and most of the time is spent in design, programming and set up. keen.

[Hirudin]

It's a shame that it's not reliable!

It seems like a reliable tool changer would always be a money-saver when doing production. Sure, you're losing 2.4 hours to the ATC, but you're gaining ~0.25 hours *per job* of "not standing in front of the machine" time. If you could confidently spend those quarter-hours doing other productive stuff, you could make up for the lost efficiency.

[LRF]

Hirudin, I agree. The whole reason for spending the money was so I could multi task more

[LeeWay]

It's a shame that it's not reliable!

It seems like a reliable tool changer would always be a money-saver when doing production. Sure, you're losing 2.4 hours to the ATC, but you're gaining ~0.25 hours *per job* of "not standing in front of the machine" time. If you could confidently spend those quarter-hours doing other productive stuff, you could make up for the lost efficiency.

You took the words right out of my mouth. If you have a reliable tool changer, it's almost like hiring another employee. One doesn't have to change the tools. Some of my jobs have 7 or 8 tool changes as well. In fact the parts that I have to make the most of are this way and I make those every week. I am working on budgeting for both the PDB and ATC when Ray gets them rolling. I like the idea of an employee that doesn't talk back and stays the hell off the phone.

[G59]

Could all this not be resolved through the post processor settings. You can adjust the speeds when it returns from tool change. Or am I wrong on the Tormach ATC.

I dont own a Tormach, but in most machines, the return from tool change and the speed is usually done by post processor, muxh like the go to tool change position is.