[nelZ]

Hi all,

Been using Bobcad since V18. I've recently gotten really annoyed. in one sitting, I found out updates cost money, lost 2 hours of solids work with no crash or mistake on my part, could not Boolean subtract, etc. etc.

I use Accellicad for drawing (mucho better) and ONLY do the CAM part in Bobcad.

I need an affordable CAM program to simply crunch the code from the drawings. I'm a one person shop here so I've no one to ask. I guess between 500 and 1,000 dollars could be gotten together for this.

Thanks for your help!

[ger21]

Probably not a good option for your workflow, but you might want to look at Autodesk's Fusion 360. It's both 3D CAD and CAM, with CAM based on HSMWorks. It's cloud based and subscription based, but for 3 more days, they're offering the ultimate version for the price of the standard version ($300/year), and you get locked in at this price forever (whatever that means) as long as you keep your subscription active.

If you just need CAM for 2D drawings, there are lots of inexpensive options that may work for you. SheetCAM, CamBAM, EstlCAM.

How do you like AcceliCAM? I'd never seen it before, but have always wanted an alternative to AutoCAD with VBA support. I think I'll download the demo when I get a chance.

[mmoe]

You may think I'm biased from the Bobcad forum topic, but I can make some suggestions and pretty extensive comparisons as well that I think would be very on point. If you want a fair and comprehensive comparison between Bobcad and just about anything else, I have used most CAM products enough to give some insight. I own 4 different CAM systems and have owned even more in the past including OneCNC (which is way out of your budget), so while you may think I'm a Bobcad fanboy, I'm actually more of a fan of having the right tool for the job, and I'm not afraid to say when it's something other than Bobcad. I will be buying a subscription to Fusion 360, but it's not to replace Bobcad, but rather to compliment it for certain jobs specific to my needs.

You need to tell us what you do, what the most complex part you'd generate toolpaths for is, and what kind of machinery/materials you use.

Just to clarify the Fusion 360 deal, at least as I read it, you get locked into the price of the standard version for life, but get the ultimate version. If the price of the standard version goes up to $600/yr, you pay $600/yr for the ultimate version. Not saying it will or it won't go up from $300 as I have no insight, but the specific language they use is "automatically get Autodesk® Fusion 360™ Ultimate for the standard price – keep saving for as long as you maintain your subscription!". They never promise that it will be $300 for life, only that it will be the same as the standard price. I plan to purchase a year's worth, but I am not going to be entirely shocked if it's higher next year. The downside to a system like they are using is that you are kind of locked in. If they raise the price, you either stop using the product and start over with something else (though you can access your work up until the point you cancel as I understand it), or you suck it up and pay to continue. With Bobcad and other products that don't have maintenance fees (Bobcad makes that completely optional), you can update to the final stable build of the version you own, then go for years without paying anything else so long as it suits your needs.

Also, as far as Bobcad goes, I thought you said you have V26? If so, why not just call Bobcad and ask them to give you the update. You've made a big deal about them not giving it to you, but did you actually aske them for it? If you have legitimate problems with their product and can provide a reasonable case for why you should get the update for free, I'm sure they will oblige. They do a very good job of trying to resolve issues that their customers are having and if the update would resolve your issue, I'd bet they will want to make sure you have it. Many don't need the latest update (I'm still on build 1335 in V26 and the initial release of V27). We had a earlier thread where there were reports of all sorts of bugs in the Translate function of V27, but after I suggested the poster contact Bobcad and report the bug (I had no way to verify it since I didn't have the same build), he got a reply about how the function was meant to be used and it fixed all his "bugs". Not saying that you are or aren't experiencing bugs, but I am saying that Bobcad is probably more helpful than you are giving them a chance to be and you presumably already own the software. If it were me, I'd just call Bobcad and see if it gets you what you want without spending any money. If you don't really use Bobcad for drawing as it is (I don't either, but know the system well enough), and you do 2d plus basic 3d work, I expect you could go years without needing to spend more.

You're main issue as I understand it is the "slow" scrolling, but if you spent your money on a larger monitor and video card instead of software, you'd be better off anyways and the problem would be gone as I showed in the video I provided. Most CAM software will also perform better with a good video card, so it's really not a waste of money. I can tell you that you will have the same issues in Vectric, Fusion, and maybe even Meshlab if you are using a low resolution monitor/videocard, so if that's your main issue, spend your money fixing the root cause which is too little resolution for modern CAM software. Fusion looks great on my monitor, but I imagine it would look pretty cramped on a screen that forces Bobcad to scroll the CAM tree or Data Manager window. You may not even be able to run Fusion if you don't have a card capable of HD levels of resolution, since it really is dependent on the videocard for quite a lot of the calculations/workload (my laptop which has 1600x900 resolution can't display the Fusion Viewport, it just shows up as a large grey box even when set to Direct X 9). I expect that nearly all CAM software released in the last couple years is meant to be run on 1920x1080 resolution monitors, or at least videocards capable of providing that. The computer is often overlooked in the CAM formula, but it's really a key contributor to the success of failure of CAM software, which by and large utilize the video card extensively.

[nelZ]

Thanks Gerry, I'll check it out. Yes, Acellicad is so much like the early AutoCAD I learned on - version 12 era...just when they were changing over to the advantages of the Windows environment. It is remarkable that I found an affordable Cad with like zero learning curve. I would have still used version 12 autocad if it ran on windows 7....it works up to XP, not beyond.

[nelZ]

Mmoe,

Thanks for your benevolence. I do have V26. As you know I'm ever more frustrated. At some tipping point one gets a divorce. I have build 1182. Yesterday I saw I've been lax and started with the first new build, the one you have and got that screen telling me I have to spend. Then hours of work went away. I was looking at my 3d image on the screen, saved closed reopened it. Gone. I've no idea why. These things don't happen with any other program, ever.

Regarding my "slow scrolling" comment, look to the right side of your screen. the bar with the arrows top and bottom. if you click above the bar the screen scrolls up a page at a time...quick. In Bobcad the same bar in the Data-CAM Tree Manager window at the left does not work that way, try it. It's a minor annoyance but it shows sloppy programming. When setting up cutting parameters a similar shoddy thing exists. In every program I use if I fill in boxes I just type, tab to the next and type. In Bobcad I must make sure to delete what's there then type. I'm sure you've seen this. These little things are truly minor but if one uses the program a lot, it matters.

I'll check out this Fusion. Seems strange something from Autodesk could be that inexpensive. Any idea of the breadth of the post library?

Thank you both. I'm not a mean person but I do react.

[ger21]

One thing to be aware of is that Fusion 360 is still in development. Many more features are still to be added, and some things may change.
The regular price will be $1200/year, and the introductory offer ends Saturday.

[nelZ]

Like rats leaving a sinking ship. Thanks Gerry I'm onboard with 360. I'll let you guys know. The cloud thing scares me a bit but perhaps I don't have to buy 2 seats if I have to work at home. I've got Bobcad there too.

[nelZ]

As far as what I do, two or three molds a year running in house, and automation - custom robots and devices. I've never put anyone out of a job though so I can sleep at nite

Thanks very much !

[mmoe]

Mmoe,

Thanks for your benevolence. I do have V26. As you know I'm ever more frustrated. At some tipping point one gets a divorce. I have build 1182. Yesterday I saw I've been lax and started with the first new build, the one you have and got that screen telling me I have to spend. Then hours of work went away. I was looking at my 3d image on the screen, saved closed reopened it. Gone. I've no idea why. These things don't happen with any other program, ever.

Regarding my "slow scrolling" comment, look to the right side of your screen. the bar with the arrows top and bottom. if you click above the bar the screen scrolls up a page at a time...quick. In Bobcad the same bar in the Data-CAM Tree Manager window at the left does not work that way, try it. It's a minor annoyance but it shows sloppy programming. When setting up cutting parameters a similar shoddy thing exists. In every program I use if I fill in boxes I just type, tab to the next and type. In Bobcad I must make sure to delete what's there then type. I'm sure you've seen this. These little things are truly minor but if one uses the program a lot, it matters.

I'll check out this Fusion. Seems strange something from Autodesk could be that inexpensive. Any idea of the breadth of the post library?

Thank you both. I'm not a mean person but I do react.

I'm not sure if the robotics, automation would really fall into the Fusion 360 category really any of the other options either. The advantage Bobcad has for that is the ability to run up to 5 axis and the Module Works core, which I think has a more robust range of capability (not surprising since it's been developed for much longer). You should google "Module Works Partners" to get an idea of who is running off of Module Works, and I think you'll get what I mean about how it relates to industrial automation. This is where the pricing of Bobcad is exceptional, and really why it's hard to complain about the $200/yr for updates when you know that they have to pay out quite a lot to license the technology in their software. I still disagree with the updates policy and would prefer they just raise the initial price by something closer to $50/seat, which would probably yield the same end result financially (since probably only 25% of users have the support contract) and then 100% of their customers are covered for updates. The support could remain separate as there is an ongoing cost involved with that, and their price point is just too low to include it.

I would also really like to know the specifications of your computer. Again, regardless of what you buy, or don't buy if you just stick with what you have, you need to have a computer that is capable of doing what these programs require. Fusion 360 in particular uses a great deal of video card capability to support what it does, even more so than Bobcad. The disappearing solids in Bobcad sounds suspiciously like a video card issue to me as well. CAM systems like Fusion and Module Works based systems (like Bobcad) all use video cards extensively. I would recommend as a bare minimum that you have something like a Geforce 560ti (several years old design, but still pretty formidable), but it would be even better if you have something like a Quadro K2200 or better. These things cost a lot of money and would use up your budget, but not having them will just continue to cause you trouble no matter what you use. If you are on a laptop, you're probably stuck. I got Fusion 360 to work on a couple laptops, but it certainly isn't a very good experience compared to a desktop. Bobcad is also a bad experience on a laptop.

The post library in Fusion is OK, but the post processor is not as easy to edit as Bobcad's, so again it would be good to know what machine you are using. It's some sort of HTML based scripting, or at least the interface is an HTML style editor. I have not found good documentation on how to customize the post processor, and I'm not really sure that it's as customizable as I'm used to with Bobcad. It's better than some in that it's seems reasonable robust for the typical machinery, but definitely not for the faint of heart to edit into a new post. I expect it will take a couple days to create a post processor and may be better to let them do it. They don't really say if that's free or they charge for it that I've been able to find, so you'll need to call and ask.

It's my opinion that you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater to a certain extent. All the screen issues you are talking about don't exist if you have what is a typical screen resolution these days. You should have that level of video capability in order to facilitate the software's capabilities to make the calculations it needs to perform. Solid modeling in particular is much heavier on those calculations (which is why I think it's video related that you had problems). I think every issue but one would be solved if you let Bobcad and those here who are interested in helping do so. I don't get the impression you've asked Bobcad for the update, and just like you probably didn't pay the same price listed on the website for Bobcad, you don't have to take what their website says as the only possibility. Call them and I'm sure they will help you get sorted. You've paid for it already, so I'm not sure I understand what motivation there is not to call and ask for what you want.

The only issue I think can't be sorted, which I 100% agree with you on, is the data entry windows and tabbing between them. I actually just called them up the other day and let them know that it was absolutely silly that you couldn't just tab from window to window and expect that the data in the window would automatically highlight so you can just start typing. The answer I got was "I'm pretty sure it does it, let me try." and after going partly through the process, they were convinced it was fine. I then insisted he try it after a certain point in the process, and he then ran into the same problems. What I can say about that issue is that it's bugged me for about 4 or 5 years now, and I never got around to complaining about it until a week ago. The thing is, I'm apparently the first one who has formally complained about it and they had no idea there was an issue. My point is that there are a lot of people that come into the forums and complain about things, but very, very few ever submit a feature request relating to what they would like changed, and very few actually submit bug reports when they think there is something wrong.

I've submitted quite a few of those reports, and my experience with Bobcad is that they are extremely responsive to user comments that seem high priority. The problem is, if I'm the only one who ever complains about the tabbing between fields issue, it won't be put at the top of the list. There is some degree of responsibility for users to let Bobcad know when something needs changed. If we all just complain in the forums, but never tell them what we are thinking, how can we expect them to know?

As Gerry mentioned, Fusion is a work in progress. It's not bad, but there are definitely a lot of things in there that just don't work quite right or don't work at all. There are portions of the toolpaths that simply don't work. There are the occasional problems with saving work that I've run into, so you'll have an even greater exposure to potential problems with loosing work IMHO. The main cause I've found is trying to close the software when you think it's saved the file (say 30 seconds after you have hit "save", but really it takes up to 5 or 10 minutes to save a file at time because it has to upload the file to the server. In most cases, it gives a warning that it's in the process of uploading the file still, and you could use the option to wait and upload it later when you open the software next, or wait and let it finish. I will warn you that not letting it finish has resulted in data loss on my part, so I highly recommend you let it finish. In a couple rare instances, I've had it full on crash when I try to close the software thinking it's done saving. Again, data from that session will be lost. I've performed about 50-100 saves, and I've had failures approximately 4 times. That's objectively not a very good success ratio. I have 14mb down/1mb up DSL, so I'm not exactly on slow internet, yet I am often having to walk away from the computer and come back before I can shut it down after saving a file. My advice with Fusion is to be patient with the file saving process.

Overall, my advice is to stick with what you have. Upgrade/update your computer to be more accommodating for CAD/CAM if you're starting to do more 3d work. Module Works based systems and Fusion require a lot more out of the computer than others like Vectric, Meshcam (which can utilize it, but doesn't seem to require it), EstlCAM, etc. Gerry also has quite a system if I remember right, so while he may be equally impressed with Fusion as I am, and probably would also have a good experience with Bobcad, that does not mean that everyone else will get the same experience.

[mmoe]

Also, what level of V26 do you have? Do you have Mill Standard, Mill Pro, 3 axis, multi-axis, etc?

[nelZ]

Radeon 5450 HD on a Dell i7...should not be a problem. Bobcad isn't for running automation, it's for machining the robots themselves, compound dies too.

The older posts in Bob were editable. I've never tried since V22 - just too much. They claim they'll make posts based on your needs but if all I have to do is look at the code and remove a few items at the beginning of each tool it's not worth the time.

They say nobody ever told them of the data entry thing? I was at a BC seminar in Connecticut and mentioned it to Sorin. I guess it never got back. The guy who does the videos must know about it, doesn't he work there?

[nelZ]

V26 mill standard 2.5/3 axis. we don't use it for production code, just toolmaking one off parts.

- - - Updated - - -

oh yeah, 1 - 24 inch monitor

[dune1982]

Try FILOU NC12 for 2,5D or DeskProto for 3D both programms work great and are really affordable and have no anual fee.

[mmoe]

Radeon 5450 HD on a Dell i7...should not be a problem. Bobcad isn't for running automation, it's for machining the robots themselves, compound dies too.

The older posts in Bob were editable. I've never tried since V22 - just too much. They claim they'll make posts based on your needs but if all I have to do is look at the code and remove a few items at the beginning of each tool it's not worth the time.

They say nobody ever told them of the data entry thing? I was at a BC seminar in Connecticut and mentioned it to Sorin. I guess it never got back. The guy who does the videos must know about it, doesn't he work there?

V26 post processor (V24-V27 are pretty much the same) is very easily configured. The post in Fusion is similar in that it's a scripting style format, but much more complex level of scripting that is much harder to decipher. People such as myself here in the forums are always happy to help change your post processor. In most cases, I can customize a post in Bobcad in a couple minutes if provided with the sample code necessary. The newer Bobcad posts are not that much different from the old ones. I started with V17 and can't remember if my first purchase was V17 or V18, but I've pretty much done my own post processors since that first purchase. It's different now, but not more difficult. Much more capable now though.

I don't know much about the seminars, but my guess is that he probably travels a great deal and doesn't have a whole lot to do with day to day Bobcad life in Florida. The best thing to do is send in a feature request, since it's technically not a bug. The more people that do so, the higher the priority. Though I did get the impression that it would get looked at sooner than later. I've also meant to ask them to make the stock transparency a system setting. It's one of those things where I have to change it every time I program something as it's just too much of an obstruction the way it starts out. I bet everyone has a level of tranparency they prefer, and they probably don't deviate from it much, so it makes more sense to make it a preference (at least is does to me). I'm meant to submit that one for a couple years now as well, but never seem to remember when I've got a moment. I think we are all guilty to some degree of expecting them to read our minds. I'll go make my submission while I'm thinking about it.....

Radeon 5450 HD is not anywhere near the league of what I was suggesting. I'm almost positive that your solids boolean issues are related. The computer is much more capable than the video card in your case. Here's a link comparing it to what I'd consider about the minimum I'd be using. I'm using the 560 ti currently and feel that I need to update to something newer. If I feel that the 560 ti is on the edge of the cliff, the 5450 HD is somewhere at the bottom of the ocean:

GeForce GTX 560 Ti vs Radeon HD 5450 ? Performance Comparison Benchmarks @ Hardware Compare

Fusion 360 does a lot of ambient occlusion effects and misc. other visuals that you'll probably want to disable. Whether you're on Bobcad or Fusion, I really think you need to upgrade that video card. Hopefully the comparison at that link gives you some idea of what I'm talking about, and again the 560 ti was less than cutting edge 4 or 5 years ago (it was a high end budget offering compared to the 590). Back then the 590 was about triple the cost of the 560ti, and here's what that comparison looks like:

GeForce GTX 560 Ti vs GeForce GTX 590 ? Performance Comparison Benchmarks @ Hardware Compare

Neither the 560 ti nor the 590 are that close to what is cutting edge today, Here's a comparison of the 560 ti to what top end is now:

GeForce GTX 560 Ti vs GeForce GTX Titan ? Performance Comparison Benchmarks @ Hardware Compare

You can see the 560 ti is still hanging in there in terms of speed, but the problem is that it is starting to get behind in supporting software calls. Speed is only one factor, while the support that the driver provides the software is equally important. All of that is not even starting to scratch the surface of true workstation graphics cards, which are far, far more stable than consumer cards. It's like the difference between a hobby mill and a production machine. The best deal right now on a good video card is probably the Quadro K2200, which is a very solid workstation card with the most current generation of software drivers, which means it will support a lot more of what CAD CAM systems want to do. Comparisons of workstation cards to gaming/consumer cards don't usually make the workstation card look that good, but in real world applications they usually are far more stable and capable. I'm saving up for the K4200, which I think will get me through another 5 years of hard use (figuring it only gets harder as the versions get newer). For V26, I can speak from experience that the 560 ti has been remarkably stable and I just don't have issues with Bobcad doing anything buggy. You can get them on Ebay for pretty cheap, given that they are still very capable, usually around $100 used.

What screen resolution are you running at? Size of monitor is fine, but you should be running 1920x1080 with that size monitor. You shouldn't have any scroll bars at all if you set it to that resolution (video card looks capable of that).

[mmoe]

Just to show that Fusion is a little less forgiving on video cards than even Bobcad, here's a comparison of the two with the same file on both. You can see that Fusion is not showing the part, or the white background, etc. You can also see that I am able to highlight part of the model, even though I can't see it. If I try to zoom in, the video card driver crashes and the screen goes black until it recovers. This is the only application that crashes my laptop's video card, so it's asking it to do something that it simply can't. I've even set Fusion to require the least from a video card that I can possibly configure it to use, so this is as good as it gets for my laptop.

Conversely, you can see that Bobcad is working just fine. It's slow, because my laptop is exponentially slower than my desktop, but will perform anything I ask within reason. I have no doubt that a complex booleann operation would probably send it into a tail spin, but that's the hardware, not the software, just as the problem with Fusion is also the hardware, not the software.

I make this comparison not to show that Bobcad is better than Fusion, or that there is anything wrong with Fusion, but rather to demonstrate that Fusion is new and in being new also likely requires a bit more from you video card. Had they started writing fusion 10 years ago, it would probably be more forgiving. But developers don't develop software today for yesterday's hardware. Bobcad may appear to be running fine, and will do most things asked of it, but there are still things the developers have put in there that are newer than the hardware allows. When you run into those things, such as boolean operations that didn't exist 5 years ago as they do now in Bobcad, you're going to have problems. It's symbiotic between hardware and software, so you can't really determine that there's something wrong with software until you have excluded the possibility that hardware is really the issue.

You'll also notice that the Bobcad image shows scroll bars on the left windows, and I've put it into the Translate operation. Even with the scroll bars, you can still use all the buttons and data entry windows. This is with a screen resolution of 1440x900, so in order to be having an issue with those scroll bars, you must be set even lower than that. The size/proportions of the windows is something I adjusted at some point, but they always appear exactly the same way. I rarely have more than 6 or 8 layers, or UCS's, so they all fit just fine in the lower window as well. I just know I need more space in the upper window for the CAM tree, so this is how I configured it. Every time I open Bobcad, this is how it appears by default.

[ger21]

but it would be even better if you have something like a Quadro K2200 or better.

A few years back, Autodesk switched from OpenGL to DirectX. Because of this, gaming cards are far superior (and much cheaper) than workstation cards in Autodesk software, including AutoCAD and Inventor.
Autodesk Inventor 2013: 3D Results - Workstation Graphics: 14 FirePro And Quadro Cards

AutoCAD 2013: 3D Results - Workstation Graphics: 14 FirePro And Quadro Cards

I wouldn't say that Fusion requires more from your video card than BobCAD, but rather, it has different requirements.

I'm running a Geforce GTX970 (~$350) in my new PC, and Fusion 360 works perfectly. Keep in mind that the GTX 970 is a very high performance gaming card.

[ger21]

Radeon 5450 HD on a Dell i7...should not be a problem.

I looked up the HD5450, and it's a $30 video card from several years ago. Looking at benchmarks, my new GTX970 is between 10 and 40x faster than your 5450.
You could do a lot better, even spending $100-$150.

I've never used BobCad, but I'd have to say that a newer video card should make a noticeable difference.


Also, there are now 5 generations of i7 processors. On multithreaded apps, a high end 4th or 5th gen i7 can be several times faster than a 1st gen i7.
On single threaded apps, you can see a 25-50% speed increase.

Regardless of what version i7 you have, your 5450 is likely to be the bottleneck when doing 3D CAD work.

[118]

I just bought and installed the GTX 750 2GB 3 days ago....at a Best Buy near here. It works great with Bobcad V27 and the update installed. Also attached is a 3D connexion wireless space mouse. No lag...No crash...No issues

[nelZ]

Sorry, Gerry,

MMOE didn't really understand my issue until my third iteration. IT'S ME. I'M SURE. SMART AIN'T SMART IF I CAN'T COMMUNICATE!

This was not a video issue. It was something else. He understands now....don't waste time re reading the posts to find out. It's trivial.

BobCad is good. I really liked the Simulation in V26 which fixed the offtimes unusable "Verify" in V25

First do no harm. I am having a ram EDM shop do cavities for a new mold. All they need is the basic 2D 3 view drawing. Nothing special. I took my 2D Acellicad drawing into Bobcad and thought I'd do a 3D model of it in case it could help. I'm talking about a simple shape extruded with fillets top and bottom and little toruses in many places, and gates (a simple injection mold-no slides, etc.). That's when the saving issue occurred.

So, no harm. The EDM shop has what they need, I tried to get some complex 3D drafting under my belt. I drew it. I can do it again.

[The Meerkat]

I upgraded from v26 to v27 when it first came out and have had glitches that bobcad hasn't been able to address. Since I can't get bobcad to give me a refund for v27(read your no money back guarantee carefully), I just use Aspire most of the time or v26 when I absolutely need to.