[keen]

I'm not sure exactly what you would like to hear, but I did exactly what you're referring to. Cut my teeth on an X3 I built. Then after learning while making fun stuff and starting to do production parts for a few companies via referrals I designed Omni-Cruise (OMNI-CRUISE: Universal Motorcycle Throttle Lock) and I made the first 1,500 of them (top, bottom, pivot nut and delrin slide) on the X3.

That paid for the Tormach 1100, March 2013, I had been dreaming about for almost 2 years! Sales continued to increase and a few customers grew as well and doing production for some of their parts and it was obvious I was losing $1500/mnth by not having time for all of their work. So April of this year I moved out of my one car garage, + chicken shed, +another small shed, + utility room in the house and into a 2,000 sq/ft shop with 3 phase, leased a Haas TM2P, an Epilog mini 24x12 Co2 laser, and hired a buddy on full time.

HAAS factory outlet gave me a 4 hour (paid) training session and I read the manual cover to cover. I had parts coming off that first day it was delivered so it's safe to say a lot transfered over. Really from my experience 90% of machining is programming /planning and work holding. The individual mill is just a matter of speed, accuracy and convenience. The HAAS control rocks! I absolutely love it. Very logical (to me) and we'll laid out.

I'm very happy with my purchase even though I practically had to fight the sales rep to convince him I didn't need a 30 HP spindle and much smaller work envelope for more money. They were sure I needed a VF series. I went TM2P added 20 station tool changer, chip auger, renishaw wireless probe and tool setter, 4th axis ready, high pressure pump, $1200 jog handle (waste of money) and a few other software options like rigid tapping. All total it was $57K. Best damn money I've spent next to the parts tumbler I bought last week.

Work holding is work holding. Doesn't matter if it's a drill press or a VMC the concepts transfer over. The big difference is work envelope, speed, HP (love having 7 HP), and surface finish. Tormach needed hand finishing or tumbling on most of my parts, but the HAAS sends parts out smooth as glass.

That said, I LOVE my Tormach. The tormach hasn't been powered down in 6 days until last night and has been running 18-24 hours a day the whole time, and the week before. I use the spindle speeder for production and another main part is roughed out using a 1/4" EM in 6061 and it creates 20 gallons of chips a day with a 1/4" em. That impresses me.

As far as transferring goes I can manipulate code from the Tormach and use it on the HAAS. Vises go back and forth, tooling goes back and forth. Heck the only big difference is the size and UI. I'd rather do manual jog machining on the Tormach because it's jog wheel beats the crap out of a "real" jog handle interface. The HAAS on the other hand can drill 8,000 letter H holes in 1.25" plate without stalling, pecking or a belt change which used to kill me on the TORMACH. even with a custom peck cycle it would slow and growl after a few hundred holes. On the HAAS I can run the same code without peck and get all 8,000 holes with one drill bit.

Not sure if any of that helps, but I tried.

To date I've made/sold 7,000 Omni-Cruises and just now finally signed with a distributor so we have to ramp production up, change packaging, start advertising finally and get ready to grow =)

Happy to answer any more specific question I can.

Brian
WOT Designs

Hi Brian. Inspiring stuff... thanks.

Please see my question on the Speeder new thread.

keen

[Hirudin]

Wow, very cool.
Did you get rid of your novakon?
...

Thanks!

I haven't sold it yet, but the illusion that I'll get meaningful use out of it is slipping more and more every day. Space is also at a premium in my garage, so getting the machine (and the crate holding the upgraded stand) would be really good. If I was a more diligent salesman I probably would have already sold it.

...
Would you say your Novakon could pretty much do every thing your Brother can but is slower?

I've been trying to honestly answer this question for a long while now... How would an answer of "sorta" sit with you?

If you're kind of asking "can you basically run VMC code on a Torus Pro by reducing the feed-rate by 75%?" the answer is, unfortunately, "no". However, if you're willing to wait longer and/or tinker a little more, I'd say you'll probably be able to walk away with very similar results. Being that both the Novakon Torus Pro and the Brother S700X1 are 3-axis CNC mills with similar travels, it would be hard to say that they wouldn't both be capable of doing basically the same jobs if time and perfect dimensional accuracy weren't paramount. A skilled machinist (or someone who is willing to put in a lot of time) could probably produce parts on a Torus Pro that are 95% of what they'd get from an S700X1.

... I don't think that answer truly tells the whole story, but delving into the complete answer is proving to be difficult for me. I'd say the Ford vs. Ferrari analogy as very apt. Both machines (whether they're cars or mills) will get the job done; and both machines, in the hands of an expert, will have similar results in the end; but if you compare almost any individual feature, or almost any individual performance metric, the high-end machine is going to come out on top. All those advantages add up and, just like most other things, there are diminishing returns on each additional dollar spent.

To put it another way...
If a hobbyist mill truly "equaled" a full size VMC but at 1/4 the cost and 1/3 the speed you'd see machine shops filled with Torus Pros and PCNC 1100s. I don't recall having ever heard about a shop with even three hobbyist-level mills, much less a building full of them. They're very capable machines and their significantly lower prices put them at a level that allows normal people to own them even if they aren't experts. IMO, the term "hobbyist machine" is a perfect description as I think of a hobbyist as someone who has time to spare and is willing to use it to save money. I'm glad I cut my teeth (to borrow the phrase) on my Novakon just like I'm glad I didn't learn how to drive in a Ferrari.

[SomeWhatLost]

yeah and all this nonsense about netflix and youtube videos and people making money by forcing ads on them.

oh no! people having fun AND making money at the same time? that is just horrible... it is downright unamerican... there must be a way to put an end to this profitable enjoyment...
maybe we should bomb them or something?

[BAMCNC.COM]

Couldn't agree more SomeWhatLost

TV has ads... and you pay for it
Apps on your phone have ads.... so they are free
YouTube has ads... so the people who put the hard work into the vids gets a TINY return...
Hulu has ads... and you pay for it

What is funny is that CNCZone is COVERED in ads... and the guy is HERE trolling about ads... lmao

Anyways, we need to just ignore him, and move on. Back to Hirudin's awesome mill!

[treyjugson]

Couldn't agree more SomeWhatLost

oh no! people having fun AND making money at the same time? that is just horrible... it is downright unamerican... there must be a way to put an end to this profitable enjoyment...
maybe we should bomb them or something?

you think ads are fun? not me, don't like things forced on me. it's my american right to disagree with you and your right to disagree with me, just don't burn and loot me.
the worst kind are the ones like bamcnc who make videos just to advertise products they are compensated for and force more ads on top of that.

[CadRhino]

Thanks - that did answer my question.
Is getting a 4th axis for your brother like getting one for a haas (8k plus).
Everything is more expensive on a Ferrari and if you get a little fender bender.........
I use my tormach for prototypes so I don't know when I would be able to justify a bigger vmc (yet).
Best
Nathan

Thanks!

I haven't sold it yet, but the illusion that I'll get meaningful use out of it is slipping more and more every day. Space is also at a premium in my garage, so getting the machine (and the crate holding the upgraded stand) would be really good. If I was a more diligent salesman I probably would have already sold it.


I've been trying to honestly answer this question for a long while now... How would an answer of "sorta" sit with you?

If you're kind of asking "can you basically run VMC code on a Torus Pro by reducing the feed-rate by 75%?" the answer is, unfortunately, "no". However, if you're willing to wait longer and/or tinker a little more, I'd say you'll probably be able to walk away with very similar results. Being that both the Novakon Torus Pro and the Brother S700X1 are 3-axis CNC mills with similar travels, it would be hard to say that they wouldn't both be capable of doing basically the same jobs if time and perfect dimensional accuracy weren't paramount. A skilled machinist (or someone who is willing to put in a lot of time) could probably produce parts on a Torus Pro that are 95% of what they'd get from an S700X1.

... I don't think that answer truly tells the whole story, but delving into the complete answer is proving to be difficult for me. I'd say the Ford vs. Ferrari analogy as very apt. Both machines (whether they're cars or mills) will get the job done; and both machines, in the hands of an expert, will have similar results in the end; but if you compare almost any individual feature, or almost any individual performance metric, the high-end machine is going to come out on top. All those advantages add up and, just like most other things, there are diminishing returns on each additional dollar spent.

To put it another way...
If a hobbyist mill truly "equaled" a full size VMC but at 1/4 the cost and 1/3 the speed you'd see machine shops filled with Torus Pros and PCNC 1100s. I don't recall having ever heard about a shop with even three hobbyist-level mills, much less a building full of them. They're very capable machines and their significantly lower prices put them at a level that allows normal people to own them even if they aren't experts. IMO, the term "hobbyist machine" is a perfect description as I think of a hobbyist as someone who has time to spare and is willing to use it to save money. I'm glad I cut my teeth (to borrow the phrase) on my Novakon just like I'm glad I didn't learn how to drive in a Ferrari.

[jid2]

The 4th on a Brother is more like double a Haas, and even more if you opt for direct drive. I've heard mixed things about the Haas rotary being repeatable over time.

Here's a video I made show part and tool setup on a Brother. The process isn't too much different than Mach 3. More stable though....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1D0p_ag-WM

[BAMCNC.COM]

I watched that before you posted here, and I'd say that is a very odd way to zero a part, and takes about 10x longer then Mach. I don't vouch for Mach at all that often, but in this case that seems crazy you have to look up a program #, and enter it for each x,y,z. I run "real" controllers (Fanuc and a Fagor) on my GT-27 lathes, but haven't on a Mill.

So my question to Steve, or anyone else who has ran a "real" CNC Controller on a Mill - is that a normal process?

[Hirudin]

I think the ones they sell are even MORE expensive... My understanding is that Brother is less locked-down than other mills so I *think* you might be able to put in any 4th axis drive and hardware you want. I figure it would be possible to use a Tormach 4th and a Gecko drive, but I'm not certain about that.

One thing that surprised and disappointed me: I don't think it can move all five axes simultaneuosly. It can have a fifth axis installed, but I think if you command it to move X, Y, Z, A, AND B at the same time it'll throw an error. Four at a time is OK though, so X, Z, A, and B would be fine. I haven't a clue about how much of an actual problem this limitation would be in real use. Seems a little bit like a Ferrari that can only apply traction control to three wheels at a time. :/

[jid2]

That's the probing process, which is what I use for work offsets. The Brother/Blum integration works off of programs, Haas uses a probing screen, but you need to enter some values. With a single program you can also grab all three references, or center a bore etc. If you use an edge finder than it's pretty similar to Mach, drive up to the edge finder, and depending on the type you either hit the "zero" button, which is "automatic setting" on the Brother control, or you type in the edge finder radius.

[Hirudin]

I don't like that you have to run an NC file either. As for having to do all the axes independently, that's not entirely different than Mach3. The way I wrote my probing routine for Mach3 was to basically probe on X+, reposition the probe, probe on Y+, and then move the probe so it's right next to the corner. A similar program could be written that calls the X+ routine, moves, calls the Y+ routine, and then moves to it's newly-located corner.

I definitely prefer the button I made in Mach3.

[WOTDesigns]

That's the probing process, which is what I use for work offsets. The Brother/Blum integration works off of programs, Haas uses a probing screen, but you need to enter some values. With a single program you can also grab all three references, or center a bore etc. If you use an edge finder than it's pretty similar to Mach, drive up to the edge finder, and depending on the type you either hit the "zero" button, which is "automatic setting" on the Brother control, or you type in the edge finder radius.

Yep. The has screens just generate g code to do the probing. I program my parts with those codes copied from an excel spreadsheet and I automatically probe many of my parts. Just jog about an inch above a corner with the probe. Hit cycle start, turn the light off and walk away.

The conversational probing is really really fast... But not quite as fast as using the haimer 3d on the Tormach. Usually. But more accurate with a LOT more options. A few buttons can auto center a bore and adjust the offsets to that point, same for a vise corner, boss, edge or just about anything else.

The probe is awesome... The tool height setter is even better. Load 10 tools. Tell it what they are, hit go and it auto touches them all off and stores the data.



Brian
WOT Designs

[keen]

The 4th on a Brother is more like double a Haas, and even more if you opt for direct drive. I've heard mixed things about the Haas rotary being repeatable over time.

Here's a video I made show part and tool setup on a Brother. The process isn't too much different than Mach 3. More stable though....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1D0p_ag-WM

Beautiful machine! - - what sort of $ are they after a bit of negotiating? (Just ballpark)

keen

[LeeWay]

My guess is not quite as much as a Ferrari.

[jid2]

Here's a good video of probing on a Haas. They have done a nice job with integration to the control. Overall function, process and number of button strokes is similar. But the GUI is better than having to do it in programs.

In general single axis probing is slower than 3d indicator edge finding. But probing offers advantages else where.

Haas does really well with their control. Fanuc is painful, but reliable. Siemans and Heidenhain are also nice to use and powerful. New Okuma and Hurco are PC based and friendly. Most of the easy to use friendly controls are on newer machines. One of the issues with older used machines is that the controls are often out of support to some degree and they are a pain to use. That was a main area pushing me away from used machines when i was looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyV5...ature=youtu.be

[jid2]

I don't like that you have to run an NC file either. As for having to do all the axes independently, that's not entirely different than Mach3. The way I wrote my probing routine for Mach3 was to basically probe on X+, reposition the probe, probe on Y+, and then move the probe so it's right next to the corner. A similar program could be written that calls the X+ routine, moves, calls the Y+ routine, and then moves to it's newly-located corner.

I definitely prefer the button I made in Mach3.

You can do them all in one program and you dont have to call the seperate move programs. The programs are really just varible inputs for macros. So all you do is add the axis callout like X+ and tell it how far to move. The programs are typically a single line of code even for setting 3 axis.

[keen]

I am... use to be an outdoorsman, hunting, fishing, etc. (No backpacking, Iowa is flat, lol) 2 years ago my first project took off, and I haven't had time to do anything. Bought a fishing license this year, went fishing once. As for the YouTube, well there are many people doing the same thing on YouTube. Hirudin above for example, and you (keen) just posted a video today!. Some of them make MILLIONS of dollars... (socialblade.com) off YouTube, I will never make that much money off YouTube, but you never know unless you try. I wish I had time to make fancy videos like NYCCNC, but just don't have time too. I have more fun on YouTube than anything. I can ask a question and usually in an hour I have the answer from one of my viewers. Most of my videos, there is more information in the comments than the video.

I did a bit of research on income from youtube and it seems to me you need a huge number of views to ever make serious money. Engineering is such a narrow interest and small group following it I cant see why anyone would bother even trying to get a return.

Please correct me if I am wrong here but I think you need a AFV or 'gossip' video featuring a celebrity, accident, babies, babes or puppys etc to appeal to the mass market, go viral and really get the big numbers needed to gain a return.

If so we technical folk need not be jealous of each others success.

keen

[Hirudin]

You can do them all in one program and you dont have to call the seperate move programs. The programs are really just varible inputs for macros. So all you do is add the axis callout like X+ and tell it how far to move. The programs are typically a single line of code even for setting 3 axis.

Sure, but making each probing move its own subroutine is more efficient.

When I made the scripts for my Mach3 screen I had each button its own standalone program. If I decided to make a change/improvement/fix I had to go through all nine button scripts and make the edits one by one. I should have just done is make the five motions (X±, Y±, and Z-) and make each corner simply call the appropriate X, Y, and possibly Z subroutine.

I did a bit of research on income from youtube and it seems to me you need a huge number of views to ever make serious money. Engineering is such a narrow interest and small group following it I cant see why anyone would bother even trying to get a return.
...

I agree, since the money can't be that good I don't bother with them. I hate being forced to watch ads. Hulu can bite my ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PJNlmk5Yik

I'd probably be singing a different tune if I had 100,000 subscribers though.

...
HAAS Super Mini Mill 2 - Setting the G54 Work Off… youtube/blabla

Bleh, talk about a video that needs to have "stabilization" turned off!

[cordvision]

Not saying the Tormach is a better machine than the Brother or Haas posted above, but the Tormach jog wheel is way faster and easier to use than any other jog wheel I've seen so far. On the Tormach, I can manually zero all three axes using an old school spinning edge finder in less time than it takes on those high end machines. With a Haimer probe, it would be even faster (30 seconds or so).

[mountaindew]

Sure, but making each probing move its own subroutine is more efficient.
When I made the scripts for my Mach3 screen I had each button its own standalone program. If I decided to make a change/improvement/fix I had to go through all nine button scripts and make the edits one by one. I should have just done is make the five motions (X±, Y±, and Z-) and make each corner simply call the appropriate X, Y, and possibly Z subroutine.
I agree, since the money can't be that good I don't bother with them. I hate being forced to watch ads. Hulu can bite my ass.
I'd probably be singing a different tune if I had 100,000 subscribers though.

I keep digging for info on probing and not finding much that points to a strategy to automate this operation more. Few hints like this here and there help!

I recently found watching videos much more tolerable using a phone type device. Less or no ads, slower and less detail overall but a good use of my time when mobile.
md