[SCzEngrgGroup]

i don't see what all the arguing is about, don is telling you what works well on his machine, isn't that the point here, help with a procunier on a tormach series III? sounds like he has it figured out, thanks for the help don.

Not arguing, trying to get the facts straight, and give other users advice on how to get the best result. Is that not, after all, the whole point of these forums?

The fact is, 100% feed with a Procunier will work only if the spindle speed is exactly what you command, or slower. If it is faster, you will break the tap. I would think anyone thinking about using a Procunier would find that information useful. I don't doubt for a minute it works fine for Don, but I'd be willing to bet that is only because his spindle is, by dumb luck, running running at, or more likely below, the commanded speed. On a machine with open-loop spindle speed control, if you haven't measured the spindle RPM, you really don't know what it is. One thing is certain - it will almost never be exactly what you commanded, and whether it's faster or slower for any given command will vary considerably from one machine to the next.. If your machine happens to be running a bit fast, you WILL have problems. If I were using a tapping head for the first time, I'd like to know that.

If you and Don don't care, so be it. Don't read my posts. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. But I can assure you there are people here who are interested, as I've heard from several of them off-line, so I'm going to keep posting, and letting the admins deal with the trolls.

Regards,
Ray L.

[carlowens]

whatever fella, don't throw stones. i agree people should be allowed to correct others and voice their opinions. i appreciated dons ok, no need to take an attitude.

[MichaelHenry]

I would say my rate of smashing things is pretty good considering I haven't been doing this very long (late 2012) and I don't do it often enough. But they happen and in spectacular fashion I learn.

Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement

Mike

[BAMCNC.COM]

Nice! Great quote there!

[rowbare]

The fact is, 100% feed with a Procunier will work only if the spindle speed is exactly what you command, or slower. If it is faster, you will break the tap.

Ray,

You got it backwards here. At 100% feed if the spindle speed is faster the cone clutch will disengage (as you stated in your earlier excellent post).

bob

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Ray,

You got it backwards here. At 100% feed if the spindle speed is faster the cone clutch will disengage (as you stated in your earlier excellent post).

bob

Bob,

Yes, you are correct.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Don Clement]

I bought my Procunier 1E new over 10 years ago and have since successfully tapped 10s of thousands of holes (blind and through) from 2-72 to 1/4-20 in both my manual mill and Tormach CNC. I adapted my Procunier 1E from using on a manual machine (Rockwell mill) to the Tormach CNC. The speeds on the manual machine were set to be below the maximum for the material and tap used. The feed was manually done by hand using the quill. The idea that feeds and spindle speeds have to be exact or 10% below 100% feed using the Procunier on the CNC Tormach really baffle me. The Procunier 1E is basically the same as the Procunier CNC head. Procunier says to program for 100% downfeed, no dwell retract at 200%. This programming has worked for me on my Tormach and Procunier for successfully tapping 10s of thousands of holes for over five years. Rarely break a tap unless I do some thing stupid like leaving the feed overide at 200%.

So tell me again how am I tapping wrong with the Procunier on my Tormach PCNC.

"Who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" Chico ~Duck Soup

Don Clement

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I've already explained, several times, based on the actual internal workings of the 1E, why I believe you've gotten away with running as you have. But you have never bothered to address a single one of my points. "It works for me" is not proof. Unless you KNOW your actual spindle speed, you have no proof you're really running at 100% feed. You only know what you've commanded, and what you've gotten away with. You have not explained WHY the CNC tappers include the warning "CAUTION: Do not exceed the 100% feedrate" in the manual, or why there are no CNC programming guidelines given for the E-series heads. Surely you can understand that, in your case, if the spindle runs slower than commanded, you WOULD be violating this rule, and proving my point? If you're right, WHY is this warning even in the manual?

Tell you what - Why don't you "put your money where your mouth is", and prove me wrong, with a simple video - First, MEASURE your spindle speed, and prove that you really are feeding at 100%, relative to the spindle speed. I'm betting you'll find your spindle, purely by luck, happens to run exactly at, or more likely faster, than commanded, and NOT slower. Then prove me wrong by either slowing your spindle by 10%, or speeding up your feed by 10%, and show that the tap magically doesn't break when the spindle tries it shove it through the workpiece faster than it wants to go. Or, even simply explain to us all where my logic is wrong, and what mechanism in the Procunier head could possibly allow it to "absorb" excess spindle travel caused by a slow spindle/fast feed, once the clutch has fully engaged. In the absence of either of those, you really haven't proven you are running safely at 100% feed, rather than lucking out because your spindle runs slightly faster than commanded as I have postulated.

Do that, and I'll happily admit I'm wrong, and you're right, as I will have learned something.

Regards,
Ray L.

[BAMCNC.COM]

I agree Ray. It's proven that spindle speeds are all over the place many times on this forum.

[waltpermenter]

why do people assume that actual spindle speed will be less than programmed spindle speed and so you must underfeed 5-10%? we're not talking rigid tapping here, those of us that have used procuniers know there is give in the tapper much like a tension/compression head. get some experience before you go on a tirade.
walt

[carlowens]

I've already explained, several times, based on the actual internal workings of the 1E, why I believe you've gotten away with running as you have. But you have never bothered to address a single one of my points. "It works for me" is not proof. Unless you KNOW your actual spindle speed, you have no proof you're really running at 100% feed. You only know what you've commanded, and what you've gotten away with. You have not explained WHY the CNC tappers include the warning "CAUTION: Do not exceed the 100% feedrate" in the manual, or why there are no CNC programming guidelines given for the E-series heads. Surely you can understand that, in your case, if the spindle runs slower than commanded, you WOULD be violating this rule, and proving my point? If you're right, WHY is this warning even in the manual?

Tell you what - Why don't you "put your money where your mouth is", and prove me wrong, with a simple video - First, MEASURE your spindle speed, and prove that you really are feeding at 100%, relative to the spindle speed. I'm betting you'll find your spindle, purely by luck, happens to run exactly at, or more likely faster, than commanded, and NOT slower. Then prove me wrong by either slowing your spindle by 10%, or speeding up your feed by 10%, and show that the tap magically doesn't break when the spindle tries it shove it through the workpiece faster than it wants to go. Or, even simply explain to us all where my logic is wrong, and what mechanism in the Procunier head could possibly allow it to "absorb" excess spindle travel caused by a slow spindle/fast feed, once the clutch has fully engaged. In the absence of either of those, you really haven't proven you are running safely at 100% feed, rather than lucking out because your spindle runs slightly faster than commanded as I have postulated.

Do that, and I'll happily admit I'm wrong, and you're right, as I will have learned something.

Regards,
Ray L.

seriously dude what is your problem, you seem to have to argue with everyone. he's telling you what he has done on HIS machine and what has worked very well from the sound of it. who the hell cares if you think he's doing something wrong in your mind. nowhere do i read that he's telling other people they have to do it his way but you sure seem to think people have to do it your way. quit being a troll.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

why do people assume that actual spindle speed will be less than programmed spindle speed and so you must underfeed 5-10%? we're not talking rigid tapping here, those of us that have used procuniers know there is give in the tapper much like a tension/compression head. get some experience before you go on a tirade.
walt

Walt,

Sometime you really should try to actually READ the posts before disagreeing, becauise it's clear from your statement you have no experience with a Procunier tapping head, and no clue how the Procunier differs from most other tapping heads. The Procunier, unlike the Tapmatic and others, has ABSOULTELY NO ability is absorb OVER-feed beyond the point where the clutch engages. Once the clutch is engaged, it can compress no further, and any over-feed beyond that point turns it into a rigid tapper that is FORCING the tap down through the workpiece faster than the thread pitch dictates. Look at the (readily available) internals, and you'll see this is not speculation, is it hard, cold FACT, borne out by the warning in the operators manual for their "CNC" tapoping heads (and the E-Series is NOT included in that category!). This is the reason for under-feeding with the Procunier if the actual spindle speed is not precisely controlled or known.

If you still want to disagree, after learning how the Procunier actually works, PLEASE present some actual facts or data to support your position. I've presented plenty of factual data, based on actual hands-on experience, and actual hands-on examination of the internals of the Procunier tapping head. How about you? What do you base your statements on? As far as I can see, you have done nothing more than declare me wrong, without presenting anything beyond your (demonstrably incorrect) opinions, and without directly, or even indirectly, addressing a single one of my points.

Regards,
Ray L.

[waltpermenter]

Walt,

Sometime you really should try to actually READ the posts before disagreeing, becauise it's clear from your statement you have no experience with a Procunier tapping head, and no clue how the Procunier differs from most other tapping heads. The Procunier, unlike the Tapmatic and others, has ABSOULTELY NO ability is absorb OVER-feed beyond the point where the clutch engages. Once the clutch is engaged, it can compress no further, and any over-feed beyond that point turns it into a rigid tapper that is FORCING the tap down through the workpiece faster than the thread pitch dictates. Look at the (readily available) internals, and you'll see this is not speculation, is it hard, cold FACT, borne out by the warning in the operators manual for their "CNC" tapoping heads (and the E-Series is NOT included in that category!). This is the reason for under-feeding with the Procunier if the actual spindle speed is not precisely controlled or known.

If you still want to disagree, after learning how the Procunier actually works, PLEASE present some actual facts or data to support your position. I've presented plenty of factual data, based on actual hands-on experience, and actual hands-on examination of the internals of the Procunier tapping head. How about you? What do you base your statements on? As far as I can see, you have done nothing more than declare me wrong, without presenting anything beyond your (demonstrably incorrect) opinions, and without directly, or even indirectly, addressing a single one of my points.

Regards,
Ray L.

50 years in the industry ray, using procuniers more times than I can count, how about you? you see your lack of experience shows because the fact is if you feed a tap much faster than the rpm can keep up with you'll end up with a stripped hole not a broken tap. if it is forcing the tap into the material it will chew it up rather than follow the pitch as it should. good enough or do you want to rant some more.
walt

[SCzEngrgGroup]

50 years in the industry ray, using procuniers more times than I can count, how about you? you see your lack of experience shows because the fact is if you feed a tap much faster than the rpm can keep up with you'll end up with a stripped hole not a broken tap. if it is forcing the tap into the material it will chew it up rather than follow the pitch as it should. good enough or do you want to rant some more.
walt

Still not addressing a single one of my points - just more of your opinion.... WHAT happens if the feed is too high for the RPM? You claim the head will absorb the excess travel. HOW??? By what mechanism?? Come on, Walt. Surely with all the vast experience and knowledge you claim to have, you can refute my arguments with actual facts, instead of just "It's so because I say it's so"?? I've presented my facts, with documentation to back them up Where are yours?

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

Based on the fact that the Procunier CNC Tru-Tap has no provision to compensate for being overfed it's a bad idea to overfeed it. JFC, this isn't rocket science people.

The only point on contention here seems to be what provisions should be taken to make sure it's not overfed. (Except one person, who apparently thinks Procunier CNC tapping heads have 'give'. That person, waltpermenter, is wrong.)

SCzEngrgGroup suggests purposely underfeeding to ensure it's not overfed. Seems like a fine solution to me.
Don Clement suggests feeding at 100%. After-all, it works for him and he's done 10s of thousands of tapped holes.
waltpermenter thinks SCzEngrgGroup should be argued with at every opportunity, and is doing so.
What I did is I measured my spindle speed with a cheap tachometer and used the measured speed to calculate the feed rate. It seems to have worked, but I was assuming the discrepancy between my programmed spindle speed and the actual spindle speed will stay constant. That's probably not a wise assumption. If I use my Procunier again, I'll probably reduce the feed-rates (both directions) by 5% or so, just to be safe.

Tapping 105 blind M5 holes in 6061 aluminum with a Procunier Tru-Tap on a Torus Pro CNC mill - YouTube

[BAMCNC.COM]

We need posts like that for every thread here Awesome Hirudin, I thought I was watching Judge Hirudin

[waltpermenter]

seriously dude what is your problem, you seem to have to argue with everyone. he's telling you what he has done on HIS machine and what has worked very well from the sound of it. who the hell cares if you think he's doing something wrong in your mind. nowhere do i read that he's telling other people they have to do it his way but you sure seem to think people have to do it your way. quit being a troll.

+1 hilarious, you'll also note he never answers questions to him about his experience, he read it once somewhere so that makes him an expert. lol.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

+1 hilarious, you'll also note he never answers questions to him about his experience, he read it once somewhere so that makes him an expert. lol.

I don't have to answer questions about my experience - there's more than adequate proof in my posts. You, however, have shown absolutely NOTHING you've ever done, beyond claiming "50 years in the industry". The world is full of people who work in a field for decades, yet manage to remain not only not proficient, but not even competent. With no evidence of your skills, your claims of vast experience are meaningless. Based on your many patently incorrect comments, I think your experience is more "half-vast".

Now, how about stopping the insults and name-calling, and ADDRESS THE FACTS, as I've asked. You never actually address the facts and points of the topics being discussed, despite repeated requests to do so. You constantly declare me wrong, and proclaim your expertise, yet you never provide ANYTHING to backup you statements, beyond your own opinion. ADDRESS THE FACTS, PROVIDE SOME INDEPENDANT BACKUP OF YOUR POINTS, OR YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A TROLL!

I'm not going to beholding my breath waiting for you to do that, since you never once have. You'll just come back with yet more insults....

Regards,
Ray L.

[BAMCNC.COM]

Time to close this one... again due to Mr. Walt antagonizing Ray

[ger21]

Do you guys realize that you're all guilt to some extent? I can site daily examples of the pot calling the kettle black, with all of you constantly reporting each others posts.
Don't be surprised if you all get permanently banned at some point. That includes just about everyone of you. I don't care who you are, or how helpful you are.
Consider this a final warning. Anything even close to being inappropriate (imo) will result in an instant, permanent ban.

Learn how to ignore posts you don;t like, instead of crying to the moderators, and *****ing about the moderators not doing their jobs, which are unpaid voluntary positions btw.


When someone posts something you don't like, ignore it. Rest assured that the moderators read every one of your posts. Nobody likes to ban members who are actually contributors here, but you guys are working very hard to get yourselves banned.