[cwhiley]

G59, the damage seems to be a bit more than cosmetic.....but I'm not certain....you may be right. When you hand jog the table on the x-axis it sort-of hangs up and moves in a herky/jerky fashion. I think he was also concerned about the way cover seals as I read on a site that sells replacements and repairs them, that if the seals are messed up that metal chips and shavings can get into the motor bearings and such really fouling things up.

I do fully agree that the machine should have been set to a lower rapid setting. I was being outp[aced by the machine, cutting myself with razor sharp extruded aluminum, and such. It was not pleasant that day across the board.

So programming errors can cause major crashes as well you say mactec54? I would guess it would be very easy to break tools in the programming debugging process. I guess, one could also crash parts of the Z-axis spindle directly into parts if you were way off, causing significant damage.

Boss has only been in the CNC world for a bit over a year. I think they got the first DT-1 in August or September of 2013.....and they got the other DT-1 and VF-4ss after November 2013 when they moved into the new building they are currently in...so he's rather new to the whole concept.

[G59]

You and your boss have a lot to learn, and it shows you both are new at it. I have been doing this for over 25 yrs and believe me, the damage that is in the pictures is nothing compared to what I've seen flying off of a CNC lathe that the new guy wrongly setup in the chuck. The machine shop I was in, made the operator repair his f*** ups so you learn not to do it again. Those way covers can be straitened out to function like new. Haas would not honor this as a warranty issue. So your boss still has to pay out of pocket.
In our shop, the only thing that puts a machine out is either the electronics crap out, or a major failure such as spindle bearings. It was his choice to put it out of commission. So now he bites the bullet and should shut up. After all, if you can't rely on the wisdom of your supervisor, then you are left alone with your knowledge.

that if the seals are messed up that metal chips and shavings can get into the motor bearings and such really fouling things up.

I highly doubt that. These machines aren't toys. The motors use sealed bearing.

So programming errors can cause major crashes as well you say mactec54?

The question you have to ask yourself is, has the program run reliably before you took over the reins. If the program worked 'proofed', then it was all you. If this was fresh off someones desktop or mdi input, then your boss is again at fault.

Oh, BTW, untested programs can destroy your machine very quickly and cause irreparable damage.
Good day.

[cwhiley]

It was ALL ME. I completely failed to tighten the vise which holds the part to be machined. That much is certain. This is a program that has been running fine for quite some time....perhaps 6 months or better before I even started.

There is something to be said about better training from someone with better spoken English and turning the rapid setting down so I'm not having to hustle so fast in my first hour of running parts on this machine.

Before this crash event I had spent all my time learning to run a completely different part machined in a rotating hydraulically actuated fixture on the other DT-1...two at a time. It has a 5 minute 50 second cycle during which you hand file spots all over, pre-drill side screw holes (before threading), and running a parallel thread tap press AFTER the machined pieces come out of it. So there's a lot of details on the other machine. The one I messed up on has literally just enough time between cycles (40 second cycle) to rinse off the chips and air hose off the water and stragglers. That, and I was finding myself getting cut all to hell from the razor sharp cut edges on the extruded parts. I wasn't paying good attention, was realizing what drudgery it was to run the machine, and then had to go to the pisser, and in my distraction just put the part in w/o tightening the vise and then jetted off to the men's room to come back and find it crashed.

One thing I've noticed is that we break a LOT of tools. The most common is that the 2.5mm thread tap breaks, through no fault of the operator. Sometimes the very small drill bit also breaks. Naturally if you don't hear or see it break the drill bit, it takes the tap out too, b/c there is no hole drilled so it snaps the tap. Every time a tool breaks I get asked how it broke, etc etc and get looked at with a shifty glance as if it's always my fault. The aluminum chassis we are machining in the machine I mentioned earlier uses a total of 16 tools, and has a complicated set of operations. They are manufactured for a LARGE semiconductor company and the tolerances are EXTREMELY tight. He has a contract to produce 80,000 of these chassis by December. We are scaling up to run BOTH DT-1's at this plant, for two shifts to produce around 500 units a day. Right now, only one is running this job for two shifts. I can produce about 120-135 units in about 7.5 hours of work under ideal conditions. We also do the finishing, powdercoating, and electronics gaskets/seals inside. So the chassis is ready for the electronics by the time our shop is done with it. I think that's where his value lies, as he is a one stop shop for the manufacturer of these units.

Incidentally I did ask (I'm so new I don't want to press anything too hard and seem like I know something better than them...) if we were going to try and straighten the old way covers and keep them as spares after we put the replacements in and he said he's going to try, after he takes them out, to see what they look like. So at least there's that. The replacements definitely will be in tomorrow.

Here's a slightly better pic by the way.

[G59]

Ha Ha Ha, that's it? That's the big damage you did? This is laughable. Ha Ha Ha.
Your English is perfectly fine so stop worrying about it. Many reasons for broken tools. That's kind of hard to diagnose without knowing how much wear are on them. Speed kills, tools that is.

[cwhiley]

Uh I know my English is fine. It's the Mexican that's been training me that needs help in that area.

[cwhiley]

The Haas service rep came today and replaced the way covers. Apprently took him all of 10 minutes. The machine seems to be running, but no one was operating it today. I'm glad that mess is over.

[G59]

A week of torment for 10 minutes. So how much was the repair?

[mactec54]

The Haas service rep came today and replaced the way covers. Apprently took him all of 10 minutes. The machine seems to be running, but no one was operating it today. I'm glad that mess is over.

It should of been back in production 30min after the Crash, for something as simple as this

[G59]

I agree. I bet it cost more than $200. Much more if you count downtime. Maybe next time the boss will actually assess the situation and make appropriate decisions to minimize the loss of production.
Like I said, in a real machine shop environment, this would of been dealt with much differently. Actions would of been taken immediately to get production back into full swing.

[cgallery]

As a boss (but not running a CNC shop), an employee that feels terrible when damage occurs is a great employee. Carp happens, things break. It is how you react when things go wrong that counts. And expressing concern about costs and responsibilities tells me you're the right guy. I can say that because I've watched guys purposely break things just so they can go home early.

[cwhiley]

As a boss (but not running a CNC shop), an employee that feels terrible when damage occurs is a great employee. Carp happens, things break. It is how you react when things go wrong that counts. And expressing concern about costs and responsibilities tells me you're the right guy. I can say that because I've watched guys purposely break things just so they can go home early.

Thanks for this. Truthfully, I take the job very seriously. I'm trying very hard. I'm working harder than I ever have at any job in my entire life....and I'm 35 so that's saying something.

I'm VERY aggravated because I feel like I'm not being recognized for hustling so hard.

I'm really frustrated.

The process for machining these involves a lot of detail filing with a hand file before they are machined. Well, naturally since the cycle is nearly 6 minutes long, you spend time between cycles doing that as well as pre-drilling the side mounting holes, and tapping these same holes after they are machined. Well, I managed to machine 142 units on this evening's shift. If you do the math, that's 71 cycles. Now, there is a bit of lost time between cycles to remove the finished parts, air hose the chips off the fixture, and mount the next pair of parts into the fixture. You have to pay attention as a crooked part or slight misalignment will cause a bad part or worse yet broken tools. So if you work 8 hours that's 480 minutes. So if there was ZERO time to cycle the parts in and out you could theoretically do 80 cycles per 8-hour shift. Since there is about 15-20 seconds between to swap parts this adds up over time and you lose out a bit.

So I broke my personal record tonight and did 142. Pretty damn good in my opinion. PLUS I left 84 on the table ready to rock. Which leads to my point....the truly aggravating part...

All week I have left a surplus of hand filed and drilled parts ready to be machined. When I come in and relieve first shift, I have less than half of what I left the previous night on the table to machine. So the guy that works the other shift, in my humble opinion, is just taking all of my hard work, and making his job easier. He's able to take it way easy because there are so many ready to run. I figured he would be good about it and still file as many as he normally does, but he's using my extra hard work, and leaving me with scraps when I relieve him. This has happened 4 days in a row. The worst was Monday when I left him with 80+ on the table ready to go, and when I came in there was only 35. He's been there 3+ years. I've been there 4 weeks. So I feel like there's ZERO incentive for me to work this hard. Granted the machine can only do so many per hour, so having a "buffer" that large is not necessary. But what it does allow you to do is spend more time inspecting, and testing screw holes, alignment, and quality of the finished part. (I'm very concerned with quality control right now because I'm new and want to catch any mistakes as early as possible to prevent mistakes, and manual re-works/repairs) But everyday I've come in all my "buffer" is practically gone so I'm forced to bust ass again, just to make sure I keep the machine running. I always eventually catch up, but I'm tired of being taken advantage of...if you understand where I'm coming from. I've decided I'm going to stash my buffer under a work bench or something....because it's not fair that his productivity is just as good if not better than mine, simply because he's able to take advantage of what I'm leaving. To add insult to injury this Mexican guy is just unfriendly as all get out, and there seems to be a real attitude he has against me.

The thing is they've NEVER had a 2nd shift till I got hired....so he's never had anyone working the same parts as him until now. I dunno if he feels threatened, doesn't want to look bad, or is just a jerk, or is racist, but there's definitely animosity. It's not just a language/cultural barrier, that much is certain.

I know this much....I ain't going to work this hard just so he can take his time feeding the machine, and me struggle, whilst it looking like he's actually more productive when he's not. Pretty much, the environment at this point promotes mediocracy and doesn't encourage high levels of productivity. There ought to be a bit of cohesiveness and teamwork but apparently not...so I'm going to solve it myself and just put my extra work aside where it's not noticed, and when he leaves I'll pull it all out and then I can take a little more time on quality control, and basically not bust my damn ass nonstop....because it's clear there's no reward for doing that. Also, I'd like to spend a bit of time watching the cycle in detail, and paying attention to the code being run so I can see a working example of the G-code instructions and how the programming actually works. I don't know if I mentioned it earlier but I have 15 years of I.T. experience, and know a great deal about computers and worked as a programmer for a university years back. Esentially I got in legal trouble a while back, so I'm having major troubles getting through most H.R. departments to stay in my industry...so I'm at this plant. I spend some of my free time watching milling basics youtube videos, am trying to pour over the Haas programming manual, and am also trying to get my feet wet with MasterCAM and SolidWorks....but I have no idea what I'm doing so I am just trying to locate videos, and training materials online as best I can. At this point I'm just getting the applications installed. HAven't even run them yet. I have a bit of AutoCAD experience as well from a couple classes I took as a graduate student but nothing too serious. See, I'm childhood friends and schoolmates with the owner and he's expressed to me that he wants me to learn how to program....but I'm not given any clear direction as to how or when I'll ever be able to do this. It's all just run run run production. I think after my 90-day probation period is up I am going to suggest I come in an hour or two earlier....before I relieve 1st shift and spend that time playing around with MasterCAM, SolidWorks, and G-Code.....otherwise I'll never get a chance to learn how to do this stuff.

Anyhow, appreciate you guys reading all this and listening to my rant.

[LeWhite]

Your gonna do well....after a bit. Just remember the rapid buttons on the control pendant are in English.

[cwhiley]

Thank you LeWhite.

Thank you cgallery.

It's very, VERY, hard to have come from where I came from, working behind a desk doing computer work, that I could do in my sleep for $35K a year (easy state job in Arkansas --- that salary goes a long ways here) to busting your ass for $8/hr and no one even talks to you or says hey you're doing a pretty good job, or hey I have a computer that broke, or how was your weekend, or just ANYTHING. It's a lonely isolated place. The Mexicans have clanned up and you're like an outsider there. The owner is the smartest guy there...and I'm pretty sure I'm just as smart as him. I just want a shot or two at doing something that uses an ounce of my intellect....not all the time...I understand my role right now....but just SOMETHING. I figured I'd get to use something in my 15 years of skills and loads of education in the last 4 weeks, but nope. None. I don't even want more money....hell I just want a smidge of recognition for not being just a stupid grunt.

Sorry, I'm just aggravated and irate tonight. It's one of those days. Time to go to bed.

Thanks guys.

[G59]

You won't be there very long. Ive been in your shoes, one day, you'll realize, you can do better elsewhere. Nothing worse then not fitting in. Take whatever experience you can with you and move on. The company should of posted an add for " Looking for button pushers."
As for leaving a buffer for the second shift. Before you start yours, count how many he leaves you, and leave no more or less for him. That simple.

[cgallery]

You won't be there very long. Ive been in your shoes, one day, you'll realize, you can do better elsewhere. Nothing worse then not fitting in. Take whatever experience you can with you and move on. The company should of posted an add for " Looking for button pushers."
As for leaving a buffer for the second shift. Before you start yours, count how many he leaves you, and leave no more or less for him. That simple.

Listen to G59, he is spot-on.

[LeWhite]

Prove your computer skills. Learn a cad cam system. On your own time build a 4up nest fixture. Do twice the work in half the time. Take the jig home with you. Get some tamales and salsa for everybody, and ask the boss for a 200% raise. Be a winner not a complainer!

[cygnus x-1]

Prove your computer skills. Learn a cad cam system. On your own time build a 4up nest fixture. Do twice the work in half the time. Take the jig home with you. Get some tamales and salsa for everybody, and ask the boss for a 200% raise. Be a winner not a complainer!

Absolutely. Except maybe for the part about the Tamales. You can try it but I doubt it will help. Entrenched employee mentality is hard to break and has to be fixed from the top down. At this point you are an outsider and are seen as a threat, whether legitimate or not. This happens in most companies larger than maybe 5 people, and usually gets worse as the number of employees goes up.

I'm VERY aggravated because I feel like I'm not being recognized for hustling so hard.
I'm really frustrated.

Recognition takes time. But not being recognized actually doesn't bother me so much. The reason is because when I do a good job on something, I know that I did a good job, whether anyone else realizes it or not. And that's enough for me. Of course I can't delude myself into thinking that everything I do is awesome. It's not. Sometimes I try something and it fails miserably. So I look for what went wrong and try to avoid that in the future. Being able to do things better/faster/cheaper makes me happy because it means I'm improving. And as long as I know that I'm improving, I can take pride in that, regardless of what other people think.

Having said that; working in a hostile environment can be a real downer and sometimes the best thing you can do is walk. I've also learned this from personal experience. Just remember that it's a last resort.

The process for machining these involves a lot of detail filing with a hand file before they are machined. Well, naturally since the cycle is nearly 6 minutes long, you spend time between cycles doing that as well as pre-drilling the side mounting holes, and tapping these same holes after they are machined. Well, I managed to machine 142 units on this evening's shift. If you do the math, that's 71 cycles. Now, there is a bit of lost time between cycles to remove the finished parts, air hose the chips off the fixture, and mount the next pair of parts into the fixture. You have to pay attention as a crooked part or slight misalignment will cause a bad part or worse yet broken tools. So if you work 8 hours that's 480 minutes. So if there was ZERO time to cycle the parts in and out you could theoretically do 80 cycles per 8-hour shift. Since there is about 15-20 seconds between to swap parts this adds up over time and you lose out a bit.

So I broke my personal record tonight and did 142. Pretty damn good in my opinion. PLUS I left 84 on the table ready to rock. Which leads to my point....the truly aggravating part...

All week I have left a surplus of hand filed and drilled parts ready to be machined. When I come in and relieve first shift, I have less than half of what I left the previous night on the table to machine. So the guy that works the other shift, in my humble opinion, is just taking all of my hard work, and making his job easier. He's able to take it way easy because there are so many ready to run. I figured he would be good about it and still file as many as he normally does, but he's using my extra hard work, and leaving me with scraps when I relieve him. This has happened 4 days in a row. The worst was Monday when I left him with 80+ on the table ready to go, and when I came in there was only 35. He's been there 3+ years. I've been there 4 weeks. So I feel like there's ZERO incentive for me to work this hard. Granted the machine can only do so many per hour, so having a "buffer" that large is not necessary. But what it does allow you to do is spend more time inspecting, and testing screw holes, alignment, and quality of the finished part. (I'm very concerned with quality control right now because I'm new and want to catch any mistakes as early as possible to prevent mistakes, and manual re-works/repairs) But everyday I've come in all my "buffer" is practically gone so I'm forced to bust ass again, just to make sure I keep the machine running. I always eventually catch up, but I'm tired of being taken advantage of...if you understand where I'm coming from. I've decided I'm going to stash my buffer under a work bench or something....because it's not fair that his productivity is just as good if not better than mine, simply because he's able to take advantage of what I'm leaving. To add insult to injury this Mexican guy is just unfriendly as all get out, and there seems to be a real attitude he has against me.

The thing is they've NEVER had a 2nd shift till I got hired....so he's never had anyone working the same parts as him until now. I dunno if he feels threatened, doesn't want to look bad, or is just a jerk, or is racist, but there's definitely animosity. It's not just a language/cultural barrier, that much is certain.

I know this much....I ain't going to work this hard just so he can take his time feeding the machine, and me struggle, whilst it looking like he's actually more productive when he's not. Pretty much, the environment at this point promotes mediocracy and doesn't encourage high levels of productivity. There ought to be a bit of cohesiveness and teamwork but apparently not...so I'm going to solve it myself and just put my extra work aside where it's not noticed, and when he leaves I'll pull it all out and then I can take a little more time on quality control, and basically not bust my damn ass nonstop....because it's clear there's no reward for doing that. Also, I'd like to spend a bit of time watching the cycle in detail, and paying attention to the code being run so I can see a working example of the G-code instructions and how the programming actually works. I don't know if I mentioned it earlier but I have 15 years of I.T. experience, and know a great deal about computers and worked as a programmer for a university years back. Esentially I got in legal trouble a while back, so I'm having major troubles getting through most H.R. departments to stay in my industry...so I'm at this plant. I spend some of my free time watching milling basics youtube videos, am trying to pour over the Haas programming manual, and am also trying to get my feet wet with MasterCAM and SolidWorks....but I have no idea what I'm doing so I am just trying to locate videos, and training materials online as best I can. At this point I'm just getting the applications installed. HAven't even run them yet. I have a bit of AutoCAD experience as well from a couple classes I took as a graduate student but nothing too serious. See, I'm childhood friends and schoolmates with the owner and he's expressed to me that he wants me to learn how to program....but I'm not given any clear direction as to how or when I'll ever be able to do this. It's all just run run run production. I think after my 90-day probation period is up I am going to suggest I come in an hour or two earlier....before I relieve 1st shift and spend that time playing around with MasterCAM, SolidWorks, and G-Code.....otherwise I'll never get a chance to learn how to do this stuff.

Anyhow, appreciate you guys reading all this and listening to my rant.

Welcome to the machine!

No sense letting yourself get pooped on that's for sure. But one other thing I would mention, is that when starting a new job it's generally better to not work TOO hard right off the bat. Because then it looks like you ARE just trying to show up the other employees. You want to ease into things and find a comfortable groove first. Then you can start looking for ways to do things better/faster/cheaper. This way you're less likely to piss off the other employees.

And it sounds like their process could use some improvement. Like the filing for example. Filing sucks and is a waste of employee time. If at all possible it's better to have the machines do that kind of stuff with a ball or chamfering mill. This is where you come in. Learn the current process backwards and forwards and then find ways to make it better. Suggest these changes to the owner with estimates of how much time/money could be saved. Of course if you do this don't be surprised when you're asked to implement said changes. So be careful not to bite off too much more than you can chew at one time. Or if you know you don't have the ability to implement something, make that known up front and suggest that you would be willing to learn how to do it as time permits.


Judging by what I've heard so far, this is exactly why the owner hired you in the first place. You have far more initiative than his current workforce and he knows it.

C|

[sinman]

Your boss knew exactly what he was getting when he hired someone for $8 an hour to run a cnc machine. If he gets mad at someone for breaking something that is all on him.