[LSM]

Find you a Fadal 4020 if you have room,
if not a VMC15, 40 or a 3016 they can be had for the price of a new tormach 1100 after you dress it up
you get more for your dollar with Fadal then you do for the same thing in Haas.
10,000 rpm spindle makes a big difference as do fast rappids.

you need a good cam package to make molds

Tormach has it's place but your situation probably isn't one of them

[Spartan1]

Find you a Fadal 4020 if you have room,
if not a VMC15, 40 or a 3016 they can be had for the price of a new tormach 1100 after you dress it up
you get more for your dollar with Fadal then you do for the same thing in Haas.
10,000 rpm spindle makes a big difference as do fast rappids.

you need a good cam package to make molds

Tormach has it's place but your situation probably isn't one of them

You are not the first person who said that. The big boys and large machine shops won't normally buy 15 year old machines....so the bottom dwellers like me, with a lot of caution, can find them.

My main problem is that I don't have enough experience to pick a good one....and too early to step up the $$$$$......

But....

[keen]

Hi. I do quite a bit of heavy steel machining on my Tormach - here is a pic during a run of Bohler K600 parts. This job really tests the machine - so I fitted a load meter, now I can tell when the inserts are getting dull - before the spindle stalls!

Cheers . Keen

[BAMCNC.COM]

I've bought 2 used machines off ebay, 1 of them was a nightmare (YouTube video titled "GT-27 ebay garbage), and the 2nd one started off kinda rough, but I think it will be a GEM once I get going. Here is a video of what you can expect from a used machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02LP...xgrynvbhtuicdo

[Spartan1]

I've bought 2 used machines off ebay, 1 of them was a nightmare (YouTube video titled "GT-27 ebay garbage), and the 2nd one started off kinda rough, but I think it will be a GEM once I get going. Here is a video of what you can expect from a used machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02LP...xgrynvbhtuicdo

been there, done that....LOL!

Everything in my company that made serious money was used. If it wasn't used, we made it. That is why I also have a well equipped machine shop. Or at least it's well equipped circa 1990.....

As for buying a used CNC, I'm going to get a second opinion. Even if I have to drive him three hours away to do that. Way too many moving parts on a CNC.....andway too easy to get an expensive clunker.

[David Bord]

Just keep in mind, if you go for a used "real" machine / VMC, that its like buying a used older Mercedes. BMW, Porsche. You may get the car for $15-20k, but you will be buying a car that originally cost $80-120K... and that the depreciation of the car doesnt mean that the repair costs and parts depreciate. Quite the opposite. Ive had a few guys tell me that a repair on their VMC cost $5-10k. Another told me he put $24k into getting a used machine he bought running.

Bringing a VMC home when you retire?

David

[Spartan1]

Just keep in mind, if you go for a used "real" machine / VMC, that its like buying a used older Mercedes. BMW, Porsche. You may get the car for $15-20k, but you will be buying a car that originally cost $80-120K... and that the depreciation of the car doesnt mean that the repair costs and parts depreciate. Quite the opposite. Ive had a few guys tell me that a repair on their VMC cost $5-10k. Another told me he put $24k into getting a used machine he bought running.

Bringing a VMC home when you retire?

David

Of course I'm bringing my VMC home, In fact, I think I should upgrade to a Haas VF 12/50 and park it in the basement..........yup!

The wife is very understanding........

[Steve Seebold]

Find you a Fadal 4020 if you have room,
if not a VMC15, 40 or a 3016 they can be had for the price of a new tormach 1100 after you dress it up
you get more for your dollar with Fadal then you do for the same thing in Haas.
10,000 rpm spindle makes a big difference as do fast rappids.

you need a good cam package to make molds

Tormach has it's place but your situation probably isn't one of them

That is excellent advice. As much as I like my PCNC 1100, I think if you try to do what you want to do on a Tormach, you'll destroy the machine in fairly short order. I think for what you want to do, even a Haas is on the light side. My opinion is a FADAL with box ways would be a far better choice. The FADAL will have a steeper learning curve, but it's a way better steel cutting machine. than the Haas.

[LSM]

That's the point you will be hanging the part and stock off both ends of the machine.
unless you are actually cutting your mold into short sections think about how much a 10 foot steel bar that size weighs.

with a used machine it's best to buy one you can actually see working under power.
one nice thing about the Fadal they are relatively cheap to work on and they are tough.
But they are slow compared to some of the higher end stuff out there.
Fadal and Haas are the fords and Chevy of the VMC world

something like a VMC15 or 40 actually makes a good garage machine, not that much bigger the PCNC1100.
I got a good deal on a VMC40 with the 4th axis and sold my Tormach.

Now the Omni-turn GT75 that I picked up with it well it needs some work but it was cheap controller needs a new board.
but even that one is a good deal .

I wouldn't worry about bring it home when you retire sell it and get something that fits your needs
to do what you want to do now you need a bigger machine.
you can sell a used one for what you paid for it probably.
there is little that is more annoying then trying to do big work on too small a machine

[adamboon]

I had a lot of the same questions about buying a used machine vs a new Tormach and found that a new Tormach made the most sense for me. I live just north of Toronto if you would like to see my machine. Just send me a message.

[Spartan1]

I had a lot of the same questions about buying a used machine vs a new Tormach and found that a new Tormach made the most sense for me. I live just north of Toronto if you would like to see my machine. Just send me a message.

You guys are killing me with kindness!

Thank you for the invitation but I made up my mind not to go with either the Novakon or the Tormach. They are great machines, but I need to be able to work with 316ss for weeks on end. If the process wasn't so rough on the moulds and I was working primarily with 6061, then I would of bought one of the two.

I saw the Novakon and was impressed and I'm sure if I saw the Tormach, I would be equally impressed, but it's just too much work for them.

[Spartan1]

That's the point you will be hanging the part and stock off both ends of the machine.
unless you are actually cutting your mold into short sections think about how much a 10 foot steel bar that size weighs.

with a used machine it's best to buy one you can actually see working under power.
one nice thing about the Fadal they are relatively cheap to work on and they are tough.
But they are slow compared to some of the higher end stuff out there.
Fadal and Haas are the fords and Chevy of the VMC world

something like a VMC15 or 40 actually makes a good garage machine, not that much bigger the PCNC1100.
I got a good deal on a VMC40 with the 4th axis and sold my Tormach.

Now the Omni-turn GT75 that I picked up with it well it needs some work but it was cheap controller needs a new board.
but even that one is a good deal .

I wouldn't worry about bring it home when you retire sell it and get something that fits your needs
to do what you want to do now you need a bigger machine.
you can sell a used one for what you paid for it probably.
there is little that is more annoying then trying to do big work on too small a machine

I'm heading down the route.......

[Spartan1]

I simply can't thank you guys enough! *tentative group hug*

Besides this thread, I got pm of shops offering to quote, offering advice if they were too far away....and in one case, offering as much help as I need. I especially like to thank Steve Seebold for graciously offering his time and expertise........including the privileged of paying the alimony of his first 6 wives, several concubines and the note on his private jet! :drowning:

The next couple of days will be interesting. Based on what happened today and the quote tomorrow, either I'm subcontracting it....or I own a VMC by next week.

[Steve Seebold]

I simply can't thank you guys enough! *tentative group hug*

Besides this thread, I got pm of shops offering to quote, offering advice if they were too far away....and in one case, offering as much help as I need. I especially like to thank Steve Seebold for graciously offering his time and expertise........including the privileged of paying the alimony of his first 6 wives, several concubines and the note on his private jet! :drowning:

The next couple of days will be interesting. Based on what happened today and the quote tomorrow, either I'm subcontracting it....or I own a VMC by next week.

Gee Peter, you flatter me beyond my wildest dream. Fortunately, my 6 ex wives have all remarried, so no more alimony for them, and the concubines were more trouble than they were worth, and the last my 16 children just finished the 8th grade. Jeez, you'd think after 16 kids I might have learned what a zipper was for.

I'm happy you have found a machine that will do what you want to do. When you get ready to buy some cutters, let me know and I'll get you hooked up with a company that makes some great end mills for cutting stainless steel.

Have the Haas guy check out your machine really thoroughly. It might cost you 3 or $400.00, but you'd be better off to pay that than buy a junk machine.

I have a truck coming next Wednesday to move my machine, then I'm going to be down for about 4 weeks. I'm moving out of my garage into a 2,000 sq. ft. building. I figured since I don't have to pay any more alimony I am going to create the ultimate hobby chop. I bought 2 Haas VF3 mills with side arm tool changers, 4th axis, chip conveyors and 10K spindles. Next month, I'm going to buy a Haas ST10Y lathe.

Now the jet is another story. I traded that for a new 32 foot motor home. I got the better end of that deal.

[inov8r]

.

[mountaindew]

Of course I'm bringing my VMC home, In fact, I think I should upgrade to a Haas VF 12/50 and park it in the basement..........yup!

The wife is very understanding........

IN my area the power company would also need to be understanding.
this machine requires a electrical service 4 x the size of a normal home
And this Is the case for a large part of their tools specs .
Just the ton or more of force the tables move with is scary. "brings a new meaning to tool crash"
no willy nilly work on these machines.


Fun to read about the expenses imagined by a customer or competitor.
I like the jet plane part
In real life as a professional estimator I would be real careful about how you look at numbers.
You might find them to be very competitive and other numbers you think were better, turn out they are not.
You cant get contract to be fulfilled for any number of reasons, from actual quoted cost to quality, time.... I could write pages of excuses I use to get.
Even my dog ate it
md

[Spartan1]

Gee Peter, you flatter me beyond my wildest dream. Fortunately, my 6 ex wives have all remarried, so no more alimony for them, and the concubines were more trouble than they were worth, and the last my 16 children just finished the 8th grade. Jeez, you'd think after 16 kids I might have learned what a zipper was for.

I'm happy you have found a machine that will do what you want to do. When you get ready to buy some cutters, let me know and I'll get you hooked up with a company that makes some great end mills for cutting stainless steel.

Have the Haas guy check out your machine really thoroughly. It might cost you 3 or $400.00, but you'd be better off to pay that than buy a junk machine.

I have a truck coming next Wednesday to move my machine, then I'm going to be down for about 4 weeks. I'm moving out of my garage into a 2,000 sq. ft. building. I figured since I don't have to pay any more alimony I am going to create the ultimate hobby chop. I bought 2 Haas VF3 mills with side arm tool changers, 4th axis, chip conveyors and 10K spindles. Next month, I'm going to buy a Haas ST10Y lathe.

Now the jet is another story. I traded that for a new 32 foot motor home. I got the better end of that deal.

I heard....the boaters happiest days were the day he bought it..........and the day he sold it.

Back in the day were money was made by the wheelbarrow, I had a fantasy of buying a 50 foot passagemaker. Steel hulled, diesel, long range serious piece of hardware. Then after renting one for a week and cruising the Lakes, well, besides costing a small fortune in gas and expenses, I was fit to be tied. You can't do anything on a boat besides being on a boat.

Anywho.....

If you are going to move to a facility, how long will it be before you want or need to make money on the "hobby"?

[quapman]

I'm quite curious as to why you'd be making molds from 300 series stainless, as opposed to 420? 400 series SS is far more machinable and can be heat-treated.