[ajg762]

Hi Guys
im a tool maker in New Zealand, and am looking at starting my own small machining shop, and am after a small good quality CNC Mill to complete my workshop and was thinking about the Tormach PCNC 1100 with ATC and 4th axis set ups. i will be doing mostly one offs and small production runs in about 60% aluminium work and the rest in steel and tool steels. i will also be working with solidworks and spurtcam.

is there anyone out there in NZ with this mill that i can talk to/ visit?
Is this machine reliable? has anyone had any issues with it?
is the software user friendly and easy to learn?
is spurtcam user friendly and easy to learn?
does anyone have any issues with the machine holding its tolerances?
any comments on the ATC and 4th axis set ups?
basically is this machine worth buying or should i be looking at another more heavy duty machine? if anyone has any comments please feel free to say.

any information and personal advice/experience would be very helpful

Alister

[luv2ride]

Hey Alister,

Only you can judge if it is worth it or not. I found one local fully tooled with 4th axis, 5C, clamping kits and so on for about the same price as a base 770....I couldn't pass it up! It would be nice to have a new one and not have to clean it up but that's the price you pay. I don't have PDB or ATC though.

There are plenty of posts here that say people are more than happy with them. The software (MACH3) can be a little buggy at times but I've had no issues with Toramch's controller already set up.
SprutCAM seems to be more difficult to learn from all the reviews but I had never used any other CAM program and find it tolerable. It has many capabilities above it's price and functions mostly well I think.
The 4th axis depends on what you are going to use it for. I talked to guys using it like I do and they said get something better. I don't think I will have issues as I will use it for positioning and it will only move one direction (for now) as to not worry about backlash, basically a positioner.

Hope this helps somewhat.

[wwendorf]

Yep, worth it is up to you, for sure. I'm very happy with my 770. It's a great little machine.

As far as sprutcam goes, just watch the online videos and work along with them, and you'll pick it up in no time. Also, Eric at Tormach is a wealth of knowledge, and can help you with any issues you might run into.

Wade

[ajg762]

Thanks heaps guys for all your comments, and to Sansbury you are correct, there are no small cnc mills such as this in New Zealand and certainly no anywhere near this price range. all the machine dealers here just deal with big production machines that are at minimium 3 to 4 times the price of a tormach and certainly out of my price range (and that's for 2nd hand as well ) . how do you find the machine accuracy over production runs? as it is a small light weight machine. I'm getting really keen on this mill, certainly haven't heard anything to put me off it.

[sansbury]

how do you find the machine accuracy over production runs? as it is a small light weight machine.

I haven't had any problems, but I also haven't pushed it very hard. The parts I've made in volume have pretty easy tolerances (+/- .005" or more) and I haven't had to work to hit them. These parts require very little metal removal so chip clearing hasn't been a challenge. Other people have more trouble with this and some people have made higher-capacity coolant pumps and tanks to provide more flood than the standard system supports. Tormach is also now offering a full enclosure which I suspect will have a number of takers. Running flood with just the 3-sided shield they sell definitely gets messy. There are other people here who have made a lot more repetitive parts than I have and could comment more knowledgeably on their results. Tormach will also tell you this is more of a prototype machine than anything else. It would help to know more about what kind of work you want to do, size, materials, uses, etc.

[ajg762]

Ok so if Spurtcam is such a pain what other CAM software would you recommend? i don't mind spending alittle to make life easy as this machine will be there to make me money not give me headaches. it must work good with soildworks and be 4 axis though. can i just use any CAM software?

[mountaindew]

i don't mind spending alittle to make life easy as this machine will be there to make me money not give me headaches.

That's the kicker LITTLE
For the cost I could find nothing even close to sprut.
Any other full 3 -4 axis mill packages run 2-8k from what I looked at.
Anyway you will find sprutcam to be very good tool combo with your tormach and solidworks.
Although it takes some time to get up to speed and there are some glitches, before you know it your on your way.
Most understand that all complex programs have problems and this one is no different.
If your looking for a phone app these programs require more investment in time and money
Bottom line imho it makes the machine work and its a paper weight without good cadcam.
I design and simulate everything carefully with fixtures and tools reviewing setting and results.
This allows complex operations with dozens of tools in dozens of coordinate systems and get great results with few wow what happened moments and fewer tool crashes.
I use the red button to shut machine off at end of day.
As for tool package its hard to say what works best for who and what. Starting out with no cnc experience I figured atc would be of little use until my skill level matched that need.
I focused more on precision tools like calipers, indicators , mics, rules, pins, parallels, vice and wow has the cost of this stuff ever added up.

Final note have fun, much to learn!
md

[MichaelHenry]

Mine is just about 8 years old now and I'd buy another one. I use it for R&D prototypes and some very light production runs of 10-20 pieces.

Tormach can put you in contact with any local owners that are willing to demo their own mills:

Mill Demos & Referrals | Tormach LLC providers of personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items.

Mike

[ajg762]

Thanks guys ill be contacting tormach soon with a list of questions and what not. keep me posted if you have any other thoughts.

[Tkamsker]

Hi when i bought my machine i Made an Excel to Compare to avoid gut feelings i did weight from 1 to 5 and in my List tormach was 2nd ( i Compared 5 Systems) i think sprutcam has a steep learning curve it is an rigid Tool but the Ui was for me horrible ...

[ajg762]

I have been talking to a few people here that tormach put me onto and other than the odd small issue have only heard good things.I'm from just out of Palmerston North. the machine will be manly for prototyping but will also be doing small productions runs 10 of large parts and 30 of smaller parts sort of thing. most in aluminium but some in mild and tool steels. the work will range from injection molding dies, to press tools, to firearm parts, cleaning up casting, and specialty parts that i cant really mention. some parts will be requiring bearing fits and others not, so the ablity to hold +-.02mm would be handy for some parts and for others .1mm would be fine. also has anyone got any comments on the duality lath attachment? there is a job in the works requiring the turning, tapping, threadcutting and parting (and milling) of a bunch of small pins, not quite worth getting a full cnc lath yet but to much to do manual.

[UniqueMachining]

While I have had no experience with Sprut, it appears their are some detractors . I can only relate to Visual Mill which I gave up on after 3-4 months. It proved to be more a pita than it was worth. I had originally ruled out BobCad based solely on the negative reports on the high pressure sales tactics.

With Visual Mill out the door, I decided to check out BobCad, as the specs appeared to be fairly impressive. Gone was the high pressure sales tactics and tech support is stellar. Perhaps one of the most impressive features is the plethora of videos which are available from multiple sources. They appear to cover virtually every aspect of BobCad and provide an ideal learning vehicle. Like any cam, it has its quirks and there is a learning curve but it was less than Visual Mill and proved worth the time.

Capability wise, it has proven far more capable than VM and far friendlier. One mans experience!

John

[AVRnj]

I have an 1100, series 3 and overall I am very happy with the machine.

I don't think there is anything overly special about the machine itself , when comparing to some of its competitors, it is less powerful, less weight and less travels than say a Torus Pro or a Smithy Talon, there is nothing overly special mecahnically, it uses good quality ballscrews and double nuts, has a quality coating on the ways, but still uses dovetail ways, does not have crazy fast rapids, etc and does not have huge travels.

What is special about the Tormach IMO is their support is unbelievable, even if you buy a used machine, they stand by their product like few companies do these days. They always have pretty much every spare part in stock which is nice, they have fantastic documentation, and they have a very integrated solution for almost anything you want to add on within reason.

You want a power drawbar, they got it, you want an ATC, they got it, they have the Mach3 version to support the ATC and setup it up quickly, they have a nice integrated 4th axis, probes, etc. and they have tons of videos on how to use it, set it up, etc.

If the support and the integrated solution are important, you really cannot go wrong with this machine, they hold their value very well as they are very popular and have a high resale value, and if needed they will hold your hand through any problem you have, no matter how basic or complex. If those things are not as important, perhaps a competitor would offer more value to you.

[mountaindew]

Easy question to answer!
Like others have stated above, it is a well designed system for the cost!
I based my purchase on the following metrics company history, product development, system integration, reliability, resale, appearance, cost, customer service, documentation and user base!

Company history #1 this much money the company better be around for a long time! This includes some corporate depth in all departments like finance, product design, quality control, advertising, training, social media, advanced projects.

Product development #2 Is this company growing and adding goods and services to its product line or lines. And how many products do they offer or working on!

System Integration #3 Having a Product that is a complete working system with hundreds of choices and options for tools, software and options.

Reliability #4 Having a product that works and a company that makes and sells parts for its products insurers the user of many years of use.

Resale #5 This more or less speaks for itself, I looked for a used machine for over a year and found very little. This told me the owners didn't want to sell them.

Appearance #6 Good looking design of tool and options including, workmanship and paint. "it looks sexy in my shop" and sex sells!!!!!!

Cost #7 As a professional cost estimator I can say they make an effort to control cost and limit value added numbers. This helps provide a product at a decent market price that can be developed and supported long term!

Customer service #8 Very important when you need it some need it more often then others and always taken for granted. This company has one of the best track records of any company I have ever done business with.

Documentation #9 Does the product come with decent manuals for assembly and use.

User base #10 A very wide base of users including machinists, inventors, modelers, jewelers, firearms, teaching and training, you name it.

There is 10 reasons to consider from a owner, user and a person that spent most their life evaluating cost or if its WORTH IT!
md

[cobrakai]

I have an 1100, series 3 and overall I am very happy with the machine.

I don't think there is anything overly special about the machine itself , when comparing to some of its competitors, it is less powerful, less weight and less travels than say a Torus Pro or a Smithy Talon, there is nothing overly special mecahnically, it uses good quality ballscrews and double nuts, has a quality coating on the ways, but still uses dovetail ways, does not have crazy fast rapids, etc and does not have huge travels.

What is special about the Tormach IMO is their support is unbelievable, even if you buy a used machine, they stand by their product like few companies do these days. They always have pretty much every spare part in stock which is nice, they have fantastic documentation, and they have a very integrated solution for almost anything you want to add on within reason.

You want a power drawbar, they got it, you want an ATC, they got it, they have the Mach3 version to support the ATC and setup it up quickly, they have a nice integrated 4th axis, probes, etc. and they have tons of videos on how to use it, set it up, etc.

If the support and the integrated solution are important, you really cannot go wrong with this machine, they hold their value very well as they are very popular and have a high resale value, and if needed they will hold your hand through any problem you have, no matter how basic or complex. If those things are not as important, perhaps a competitor would offer more value to you.

This is so very true. I bought my 1100 used and received great phone support both before and after the purchase. The team answers quickly and offers great advice. Then they sent me a collet and coffee mug for free when I realized I was still using the older version! Just great.

[LeeWay]

By most accounts, Tormach machines are a good value. I did research them heavily at one point. I was looking hard at the 770. I wound up buying something else for the rigid tapping feature it had and have been happy.
I might have been happy with the 770 as well, because I did have a tapping head at the time. I do buy almost all my tool holders from them and I can tell you that the experience was just as you would like to have from a company that cares. I don't think you can go wrong buying from them.
Good luck with whatever you choose.

[Don Clement]

A subject line as this one does so chum the waters.

[LeeWay]

Did you intend to include some helpful comments, Don?

[Don Clement]

Really Novocain Leeway the chum was just too hard to resist right?

I have owned a series 1 Tormach PCNC 1100 for six years with no real issues. I use both SprutCAM and Solidworks with my Tormach. I do both prototype and limited production with my Tormach . One nice thing about Tormach is the ability to upgrade an existing machine like my reliable series 1 to have the more advanced features of the current Tormach series so Tormach is backward compatible and does not go out of date when a new model comes out. Also I have a PDB which has become an essential accessory that does for me about 95% ATC does. The Tormach holds tolerances well. SprutCAM has a steep learning curve but is also an affordable yet extremely powerful 3D CAM software that works well with Solidworks CAD. Tormach support is the best I have ever seen. I would buy another Tormach.

Don Clement

Quint: [Poking fun at Brody] Ah, the missus, Chief. If they don't like you going out, they'll love you comin' in.

[ajg762]

for close tolerance parts i always figure i will be taking a sizing cut (roughing then finish, but finishing still up), then changing the tool offset to produce the part to the correct size. At least for the first one that is anyway.
cut times arnt usually the problem it is more having the correct part in then end. as for the duality lathe i thought that would be the case, i have a good quality manual lath with DRO and quick change tools. maybe if the job becomes bigger and i get really feed up doing it by hand i will look into the new tormach lathe once bar feed and ATC are options?